[Type 4] How healthy are you?

[Duffy]

I've been at levels 7/8 for years at a time throughout my life, with health levels corresponding to e4 and e5 on the enneagram institute site. I think I'm average levels nowadays > levels 5/6.

I think, maybe for this type it might be harder to get healthy, than for any other. I think I've been fluctuating between levels 4 and 7 for quite a time now, depends on what day it is.
I find it hard to get out of the unhealthy circle, because I idealized it to the point everything else seems fake, untrue and superficial to me. And that's the basic problem of an e4, whenever you find yourself in a rut, you connect the emotions to your ego to create the false image that you desperately need to feel true to yourself, then any distribution of this image seems like a personal attack you can't bare and find yourself in more and more routine, that is not healthy. I personally don't want to be healthier, because I'd feel it's a betrayer of myself, even though I know I am not good for me.

I think there's a lot of unhealthy people out there, but what is viewed as "health" or "unhealth" is what blurs things. For instance, a "suck it up" attitude is valued in many parts of the world, so 9s and 8s at average to unhealthy levels will be viewed as healthy.

 

[fetus]

I've had a really interesting time in the past five to six years or so. I've definitely worked myself from Level 9 up to Level 4 or so. Right now, I'm actually at a 3 or a 4. I'll say 3.5. It's been a ride, but I'm definitely in a healthy and stable place in life!

A lot of people here don't believe I'm a 4, but I'm sure I am. I've just gotten to a healthy level of existence.

 

[Olm the Water King]

I'm probably at 5. I don't know what's the healthiest I've been. The unhealthiest was 9, years ago. Don't wanna go into details.

 

[Frosty]

I'm not a 4, at least I don't believe myself to be- but I kind of want to join. I don't know, I am not a 1 that is for sure, maybe 4 or 5. I tend not to be engaged with my environement very regularly or fully, more entrenched in whatever is going on in my head, but I am pretty satisfied with it and probably wouldn't relaly like to be pulled away from them- so I would not say that I am unhealthy. But that is just my perception of myself, and as a 9...

I do think it would be difficult to determine your own level of health, because by definition you are affected by those traits, the underlying ones, within those descripters. Not impossible though, if emotional homesty, and even individual motivation is taken into play.

Maybe I will start a general enneagram health thread. Good idea [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION].

you generally come up with good ones

 

[evilrubberduckie]

6.3

 

[senza tema]

This perspective of "health" in this realm has always offended me on some level. Especially the temerity of someone else telling you that you're unhealthy ... like, really? Are you my doctor? Didn't fucking think so.

Enneagram is based on mental pathologies though, so I guess it's inevitable that this conversation does happen ... pathologizing everyday human foibles to any great extent upsets me though. Which is not to say that we shouldn't be cultivating self-awareness ... I just think viewing one's own soul as sick often becomes ... idk, a badge of honor ... like, look how unwell I am ... and it can become a false kind of self-awareness.

 

[Galena]

Average, with the capacity to stretch a very long way up or down at times. Not as well off as I thought I was a while back, but certainly better than how I've spent a lot of my young life.

 

[Redbone]

I think that the main problem with our type is stability. I can feel very good, but then one event can destroy everything I was working on.

^This.

I think this is the one thing that leads to harshly judge myself as not being healthy. If something happens and I don't perfectly handle it, if I slip some, or become depressed (again) over it, then I start believing that I was never that healthy to begin with. It is very different from what it was many years ago...I'm being greedy here.

On the other hand, that is internal stuff. On the outside, nothing has changed. So maybe health grades should be given out according to what I do and not how I feel. It's hard though because I would like to feel happier...just not sure what that is.

 

[cascadeco]

^This.

I think this is the one thing that leads to harshly judge myself as not being healthy. If something happens and I don't perfectly handle it, if I slip some, or become depressed (again) over it, then I start believing that I was never that healthy to begin with. It is very different from what it was many years ago...I'm being greedy here.

On the other hand, that is internal stuff. On the outside, nothing has changed. So maybe health grades should be given out according to what I do and not how I feel. It's hard though because I would like to feel happier...just not sure what that is.

For me, at least, I assess my health level based on overall big picture -- like, my current baseline. Yes, I may dip for a few hours one day, or a few days here and there, but in general my health is X and I can manage the dips relatively quickly. Vs. in times past when I was much less healthy, my baseline mood/self was much as described in level 5/6; that was my M.O., like I said, for years and years. Easily 10-15 years. I'm not sure how this resonates or doesn't resonate with you, though. Your comment just made me want to mention that.

Also, life itself isn't static, new challenges will arise, so I don't think anyone, no matter what the enneagram type, is immune to bad things happening, or new emotional challenges to work through.

 

[Qlip]

Oh yeah, as far as stability is concerned, my dips aren't much more than a couple of steps down from 3-4 (my baseline) and span at most couple of days. And it's been a long time since I've been lower than 6.

 

[Galena]

I think this is the one thing that leads to harshly judge myself as not being healthy. If something happens and I don't perfectly handle it, if I slip some, or become depressed (again) over it, then I start believing that I was never that healthy to begin with. It is very different from what it was many years ago...I'm being greedy here.

Exactly this. Though those slippages may be internal now, I'll think about them with reference to the possibility of intimacy. I don't have a partner now, but if I did get close enough to someone that I was exposed at this level, then what? If I'm thinking and feeling like this, how could that impact my ability to love?

That arena is where I'll judge my health. It's also far and away my most difficult, which sets me up for some damn conservative estimates. Maybe it's too harsh, and I'd be better off to judge more globally? It feels right, though, to gauge character by how one deals with the thing that's hardest for them. Not comfortable, but right.

 

[Rambling]

Interesting that the level 9 is associated with mental illnesses... I can't be bothered to look it up right now but I wonder how true that is of the other Enneatypes.

I'm a 548 or 584, with level 6-8 as a lifetime normative for my E4 side. I've coped by being more 5 or 8 to compensate.

I've been working on this recently and levels 4-6 fit me much better nowadays, so I'm feeling pleased with that.

 

[RobinSkye]

I think I'm typically around level 3. My creative aspirations should be able to bring me above that.

 

[Gawain]

Interesting that the level 9 is associated with mental illnesses... I can't be bothered to look it up right now but I wonder how true that is of the other Enneatypes.

The answer is very true. The health levels are 1-9 for all personalities, and lvl 9 is rock bottom mental illness. Thus the term "unhealthy". Levels 7 and 8 are also unhealthy, as in mental illness, but not necessarily check-yourself-in-to-a-mental-institution unhealthy. While 4s are likely to be suicidal at this stage, some types are likely to be murderous. It's one of the things that makes me glad I'm a 4, because at my lowest, the most I was tempted to do was go play in traffic. While that's scary, I'm glad I wasn't hearing voices or turning into a rageholic.

 

[ceecee]

Level 3.

 

[magpie]

When I was in school I was at Level 3 (and climbing). It felt great. But since I had to take a semester off I'd say I've dropped down to 7.

 

[Fun in the Sun]

Unhealthy when I was a teenager. I think those that say there is no such thing as a healthy four are trying to keep the definition of four to be unhealthy. Healthy fours overcome self-absorption, so unhealthy fours won't relate to them at all.

 

[Riva]

Easily a three.

1's description sounds weird. I wanna push one down some stairs.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

Level four.
"Heighten reality through fantasy, passionate feelings, and the imagination."

In "the wisdom of enneagramm" there are the levels described in a much more precise way.

 

[anastasiaromanova]

When I was in school I was at Level 3 (and climbing). It felt great. But since I had to take a semester off I'd say I've dropped down to 7.

It might be more helpful for you to try on for size that your center of gravity is at L5 and your range routinely extends up to 3 and down to 7 depending on the contexts in your life. Then you would find something concrete and realistic things to work with to climb back up.

Don Rios's health levels in the top third describe states beyond what is ordinarily considered full psychological health. What most conventional psychological systems consider full health corresponds in Riso's system to L4. It's extremely rare for someone to have their center of gravity above L4 without having spent years of 'work' on one's development with specific guidance.

I'm not trying to knock anyone but this isn't an opinion. It's a fact. That's how Don conceptualized his system.

Also overwhelmingly people tend to overestimate their health level, upwards not downwards. And also also it's impossible to go from a center of gravity at L3 to a center of gravity of L7 without a very major life trauma. And even then, having had the center of gravity at l3, the person would most likely have the tools to recover, which would probably involve seeking the proper guidance to help them to do so.

fwiw I'm very clearly an L6 authoritarian rebel Six now. My center of gravity has never been higher than that and during much of my life has been at unhealthy levels. But I'm expecting to ground my center at L5 soon. However it will require a lot of work. After all, that's just one level below what in most systems is considered completely healthy...and I'm not that close to that.

And neither are most people. Far, far fewer are at L3.