[Type 7] Having doubts about my enneatype again =(

[Elfboy]

However, that was a quote from Riso's description of 3 at level 6, whereas the type 8 contains no such description, because there is no such need. Moreover, the high-average 8 is not described as rational and goal-oriented, but competitive and determined to win. Threes are also goal-oriented. So it will be difficult for you to maintain the view of yourself as an 8 against the idea of 6 stressing to a type similar in some ways to the 8.

I am determined to win but I'm also rational and goal oriented in the sense that when I am confronting someone, my main motivation is to come to the right conclusion out of the confrontation. this trait is present in the description of 8 in the comparison I posted above (it's from enneagraminstitute.com btw)

 

[Kierva]

my exterior isn't macho lol it's actually quite feminine, just in a very strong, choleric sort of way. I didn't phrase that dramatic thing correctly. I frequently feel subtle amounts of anger, but when I'm confronting someone, the prevailing feeling is pure gut energy, very little emotion attached. I'm usually 90-100% calm on the inside when confronting someone, even though I am very externally intense. I am not what I appear to others because people percieve me as argumentative and aggressive. many people feel this way about 8s. few people feel this way about 6s unless they actually are aggressive or hostile.
bold: it has nothing to do with security. everything to do with freedom and demanding that people stay out of my way freedom and autonomy are 100X more important than security

That seems awfully 8. I've personally met several 6s and they tend to be A: really unsure or B: HUGE WHINERS or C: huge worryworts or D: all of them.

Perhaps you can clarify that point for us?

 

[Mal12345]

Just a comment here, it seems as though Elfboy is denying (well it seemed to me, I don't know about you) the fact that his type is 6. It seems that this defense mechanism is rather 8-ish because they use the mechanism of denial to cope with "stress". His type may not be six at all but I don't think that really supports the fact that he's an 8.

Just an observation that I made. I don't really see him projecting in this thread, or that denial might as well be a projection.

Lol. This conversation has been a formidable challenge. Not so challenging, however, with Riso's book at my right hand.

There is a list of each type's defense mechanisms somewhere. But I just recognized something I should have seen long ago in this conversation: Elfboy's ENFP implies Fi, which corresponds archetypically to the type 6.

 

[Kierva]

Eh, I wouldn't trust the function correspondence to enneagram.

8 and extraverted intuition doesn't really reinforce that aggression that is found in 8s. Being an ENTJ myself and not using Ne on a conscious basis I fail to see how this correspondence is accurate.

 

[Mal12345]

That seems awfully 8. I've personally met several 6s and they tend to be A: really unsure or B: HUGE WHINERS or C: huge worryworts or D: all of them.

Perhaps you can clarify that point for us?

I can. It's called "levels of integration." Elfboy's biography tells a story of 6 disintegration from level 1 to level 6, and then integrating back to level 1 again (with a side-trip through level 9 during his senior year). That's what amazes me about his description. Of course if he's now a relatively secure 6 (perhaps nobody is secure 100% of the time) at level 1, then those average traits you mentioned won't apply.

Notice that his first counter-point against me was to point out that he's not like the type I was describing. But I was describing a deteriorated aspect of his childhood, not the present-day individual.

And type 8s don't go through this many dramatic personality changes in such a brief span of time. Believe me. Type 8s are much solider internally than that. Elfboy may state at this point that he is that solid now - and perhaps he is. But that statement ignores the entire point of creating a bio of his childhood.

 

[Mal12345]

Eh, I wouldn't trust the function correspondence to enneagram.

8 and extraverted intuition doesn't really reinforce that aggression that is found in 8s. Being an ENTJ myself and not using Ne on a conscious basis I fail to see how this correspondence is accurate.

It is an archetypal (not 'archetypical' as I stated above) correspondence. That basically means I had to reduce the Enneagram to a static system in order to force it to correspond to another static system. But then Riso did the same thing.

One must also recognize that Jung was describing fairly average if not neurotic people who were probably his patients. He said nothing about the Ne integrating to another function, but only addressed repressed functions.

So many difficulties here arise from not recognizing 1. the dynamic nature of the Enneagram, and 2. the levels of integration. Addressing this point is probably one of my motives for staying with this conversation as long as I have.

 

[Kierva]

I can. It's called "levels of integration." Elfboy's biography tells a story of 6 disintegration from level 1 to level 6, and then integrating back to level 1 again (with a side-trip through level 9 during his senior year). That's what amazes me about his description. Of course if he's now a relatively secure 6 (perhaps nobody is secure 100% of the time) at level 1, then those average traits you mentioned won't apply.

Notice that his first counter-point against me was to point out that he's not like the type I was describing. But I was describing a deteriorated aspect of his childhood, not the present-day individual.

And type 8s don't go through this many dramatic personality changes in such a brief span of time. Believe me. Type 8s are much solider internally than that. Elfboy may state at this point that he is that solid now - and perhaps he is. But that statement ignores the entire point of creating a bio of his childhood.

in that case there needs to be introspecting on my part to really know if I'm a 6 or not

 

[Elfboy]

I can. It's called "levels of integration." Elfboy's biography tells a story of 6 disintegration from level 1 to level 6, and then integrating back to level 1 again (with a side-trip through level 9 during his senior year). That's what amazes me about his description. Of course if he's now a relatively secure 6 (perhaps nobody is secure 100% of the time) at level 1, then those average traits you mentioned won't apply.

Notice that his first counter-point against me was to point out that he's not like the type I was describing. But I was describing a deteriorated aspect of his childhood, not the present-day individual.

And type 8s don't go through this many dramatic personality changes in such a brief span of time. Believe me. Type 8s are much solider internally than that. Elfboy may state at this point that he is that solid now - and perhaps he is. But that statement ignores the entire point of creating a bio of his childhood.

I think that's only a correlation. I'm sure there are plenty of 8s who went through dramatic personality changes.
PS: I think I was a level 4/level 5 8 in high school. my focus was all about learning how to get money and it still is (currently I fluctuate between levels 4 and 2).

 

[Elfboy]

I think you have the misconception that I'm a 6 because I was insecure from that period between 5th and 7th grade, but that was because I had plunged clear into the depths of the enneagram staying around levels 8 and 9.

 

[Mal12345]

I am determined to win but I'm also rational and goal oriented in the sense that when I am confronting someone, my main motivation is to come to the right conclusion out of the confrontation. this trait is present in the description of 8 in the comparison I posted above (it's from enneagraminstitute.com btw)

I found a description of the type 8 at that site, but I see nothing about the 8s wanting to come to the right conclusion - as if they are intellectuals doing a study on some topic.

 

[Mal12345]

in that case there needs to be introspecting on my part to really know if I'm a 6 or not

That, and reading up on the subject. The reason I prefer Riso is the fact that he goes into such tremendous and unprecedented detail about types, their dynamic relationships to other types, and personal growth issues for each type, among many other things.

 

[Mal12345]

I think that's only a correlation. I'm sure there are plenty of 8s who went through dramatic personality changes.
PS: I think I was a level 4/level 5 8 in high school. my focus was all about learning how to get money and it still is (currently I fluctuate between levels 4 and 2).

Indeed, many teenagers are focused on how to get money. And if you ask for a motive, they will say something like "to buy a car so I can get a girlfriend."

However, you and I both know that that's not what we mean by motives in this context. And that's something SavageIdealist asked about above. That motive has to be the deepest level of motivation one can attain. But few people actually determine this WITHOUT FIRST READING THE DAMN BOOK in order to find out.

And that involves knowing one's type without first knowing one's primary motivation.

A lot of this, however, has to do with HOW you went about getting money. If you actually pondered the topic of how to get money first (which is implied in your P.S. above), then in that case you would sound far more intellectual than a type 8 who simply knows what he wants and then goes and gets it.

 

[Elfboy]

That, and reading up on the subject. The reason I prefer Riso is the fact that he goes into such tremendous and unprecedented detail about types, their dynamic relationships to other types, and personal growth issues for each type, among many other things.

the main problem with me being type 6 is that, at the end of the day, enneagram is about base fears and motivations. you have addressed 1 or 2 external behaviors of 6 that I agree to having, but I completely lack their motivation. my main motivation is freedom and autonomy like an 8 and my main fear is being controlled, also like an 8. 6s are loyal and trustworthy because they fear being left alone with no support from others. I don't need this at all

 

[Elfboy]

Indeed, many teenagers are focused on how to get money. And if you ask for a motive, they will say something like "to buy a car so I can get a girlfriend."

However, you and I both know that that's not what we mean by motives in this context. And that's something SavageIdealist asked about above. That motive has to be the deepest level of motivation one can attain. But few people actually determine this WITHOUT FIRST READING THE DAMN BOOK in order to find out.

And that involves knowing one's type without first knowing one's primary motivation.

A lot of this, however, has to do with HOW you went about getting money. If you actually pondered the topic of how to get money first (which is implied in your P.S. above), then in that case you would sound far more intellectual than a type 8 who simply knows what he wants and then goes and gets it.

I'm afraid that's a gross over generalization. even if you are an 8, starting a business is not something you can jump into without any knowledge or plan and "just do".you have to analyze, you have to learn how it works and you have to make a plan. trust me, I've already failed 2 business ventures from being overconfident in my knowledge. being an 8 does not automatically make you an impulsive fool who rashly jumps into a pit with a fiery dragon without armor and a sword.

 

[Mal12345]

the main problem with me being type 6 is that, at the end of the day, enneagram is about base fears and motivations. you have addressed 1 or 2 external behaviors of 6 that I agree to having, but I completely lack their motivation. my main motivation is freedom and autonomy like an 8 and my main fear is being controlled, also like an 8. 6s are loyal and trustworthy because they fear being left alone with no support from others. I don't need this at all

What happened to your doubts at the beginning?

You're ignoring the part I quoted which stated that the 6w5 does not often require the support of others, sometimes a mentor or two as Riso stated, but they often prefer to "gut out" their problems on their own. Does that sound like a type 6 according to your idea above? Or are you better than Riso at this?

I would prefer to take your self-descriptions at face-value, which I have done, because even though it obviously seems self-damning to you, I am simply deducing a fact of reality, based on your own self-descriptions, that you are a 6w5.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm afraid that's a gross over generalization. even if you are an 8, starting a business is not something you can jump into without any knowledge or plan and "just do".you have to analyze, you have to learn how it works and you have to make a plan. trust me, I've already failed 2 business ventures from being overconfident in my knowledge. being an 8 does not automatically make you an impulsive fool who rashly jumps into a pit with a fiery dragon without armor and a sword.

What I was describing there is someone who acts on instinct, what you call "from the gut." Their instincts are right more often than not - or if not, then the type 8 will MAKE them right.

I should know, my boss over the last 7 years is a type 8.

 

[Elfboy]

What happened to your doubts at the beginning?

You're ignoring the part I quoted which stated that the 6w5 does not often require the support of others, sometimes a mentor or two as Riso stated, but they often prefer to "gut out" their problems on their own. Does that sound like a type 6 according to your idea above? Or are you better than Riso at this?

I would prefer to take your self-descriptions at face-value, which I have done, because even though it obviously seems self-damning to you, I am simply deducing a fact of reality, based on your own self-descriptions, that you are a 6w5.

it's true that 6w5s are less dependent on people than 6w7s, but they're still 6s and as such their basical core need is security and support. their core fear is being without support and guidance. (enneagraminstitute.com). also, in the comparison between the 2 types, I relate about 90% to the 8 side and 10% to the 6 side

 

[Mal12345]

it's true that 6w5s are less dependent on people than 6w7s, but they're still 6s and as such their basical core need is security and support. their core fear is being without support and guidance. (enneagraminstitute.com). also, in the comparison between the 2 types, I relate about 90% to the 8 side and 10% to the 6 side

I've already addressed the basic core need by quoting Riso on the 6 integration to 9. The quote stated that moving to the point of integration indicates that those needs have been satisfied, dealt with, shot in the head laid to rest and buried six feet under. Therefore, they no longer need apply to you.

Furthermore, I pointed out that your self-descriptions of integrating to 2 actually correspond to 9. Two and 9 have their superficial similarities, but upon closer examination they cannot be confused.

Allow me to quote further from the section on 6 integrating to 9:

"in fact, Sixes at Nine ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM EVEN HEALTHY SIXES."

Fundamentally different. So much so that Riso calls it a "revolutionary change."

 

[Mal12345]

(enneagraminstitute.com). also, in the comparison between the 2 types, I relate about 90% to the 8 side and 10% to the 6 side

And why not? You've outgrown the 6 nature you described as being your childhood personality. Perhaps you didn't intend to describe it that way, but you did.

Edit - I should point out that perhaps there is a reason for Riso asking that people consider how they were before a certain age. You are demonstrating this reason for us here. That's why your personal childhood bio was so important, and why I only considered your childhood at first, ignoring the statements you made at the end of your bio. The most RELEVANT part to self-typing involves analyzing the self you were before any major life improvements occurred. So when you see yourself as you are now in those descriptions at the Institute site, it's no wonder there is such a discrepancy between your actual type and your perceived type.

 

[Elfboy]

I've already addressed the basic core need by quoting Riso on the 6 integration to 9. The quote stated that moving to the point of integration indicates that those needs have been satisfied, dealt with, shot in the head laid to rest and buried six feet under. Therefore, they no longer need apply to you.

Furthermore, I pointed out that your self-descriptions of integrating to 2 actually correspond to 9. Two and 9 have their superficial similarities, but upon closer examination they cannot be confused.

Allow me to quote further from the section on 6 integrating to 9:

"in fact, Sixes at Nine ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM EVEN HEALTHY SIXES."

Fundamentally different. So much so that Riso calls it a "revolutionary change."

yes, I read that previously, but I'm saying that the 6 motivation has never been my motivation. from level 2 clear down to level 9, my motivation has never been security or support from others. you've brought up references to me being like a level 6 type 6 several times, but this is the one level where 6s and 8s can look nearly identical