[Type 7] Having doubts about my enneatype again =(

[brainheart]

I don't necessarily agree but that would actually make a lot of sense. my childhood was almost archtypical of an INFP and 5 integrates to 8.

You don't strike me as either a withdrawn type or an introvert.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

You don't strike me as either a withdrawn type or an introvert.

Actually, withdrawing and introversion are among the most obvious traits with him.

 

[Mal12345]

my charming side is definitely not my disintegrated side. I enjoy beling polite, friendly and charming sometimes, but it's not reputation or appearence motivated.

I understand that. I toss out possibilities, but I do know it has nothing to do with 8 integrating to 2. Three is one obvious possibility, but based on further evidence it's not a move between points but, originally, an up-leveling of type.

 

[Mal12345]

Actually, withdrawing and introversion are among the most obvious traits with him.

Elfboy? There is withdrawing, then bouncing back to life again, then withdrawing. I call that ambiversion.

When typing someone I personally don't start with key motivations or even type descriptions. I begin with intuitive stereotypes and then watch for more evidence to see if that first impression fits. For the 6, my stereotype would best be described as "the nice person." For the 8 (no offense to the 8s in the audience), my stereotype is "neanderthal."

 

[Elfboy]

Elfboy? There is withdrawing, then bouncing back to life again, then withdrawing. I call that ambiversion.

When typing someone I personally don't start with key motivations or even type descriptions. I begin with intuitive stereotypes and then watch for more evidence to see if that first impression fits. For the 6, my stereotype would best be described as "the nice person." For the 8 (no offense to the 8s in the audience), my stereotype is "neanderthal."

lol that's Sensor 8s. INTJs are frequently 8-ish and never give off that vibe. I don't give off either of the vibes you mentioned at all

 

[Mal12345]

lol that's Sensor 8s. INTJs are frequently 8-ish and never give off that vibe. I don't give off either of the vibes you mentioned at all

Not unless somebody tells you, as you described in a comment above, that you are a "nice guy." So obviously you were giving off the "nice guy" vibe at that time, which I called "phase 4" of your bio. And it doesn't sound like that vibe has changed much since that time.

 

[Elfboy]

Not unless somebody tells you, as you described in a comment above, that you are a "nice guy." So obviously you were giving off the "nice guy" vibe at that time, which I called "phase 4" of your bio. And it doesn't sound like that vibe has changed much since that time.

I don't give that vibe off until you really get to know me though, and even then it's more a "oh, you're not a douche bag" vibe than specifically a nice guy vibe

 

[Savage Idealist]

Core motivations are desires. They are more or less based off fears depending upon one's level of development. Fear drives us to pursue these desires in more destructive ways, but fear is not necessarily present. When fear (anxiety, really) is entirely absent, then we are spiritually and psychologically free to move on to our type's point of integration in the pursuit of desires.

Even so, knowing what motivates oneself doesn't take that much effort, it's often clearly present in ones actions and thoughts.

However, since you're partly addressing me, I have been quoting Riso who reportedly spent much time riding buses and taking copious notes of the people seated around him. This statement also applies to much of what you wrote just below this.

The problem with this is that its nothing more than the casual observations of but one man. It's not a reliable tested assessement and I'd be somewhat skeptical of it, in terms of the really complicated matters. Like, knowing fears and motivations is fairly reasonable, as we all have something that drives us, but all this stuff about growth, disintegration, wings, and such, in the absence of reliable and objective data, is nonsensical.

I certainly agree with the idea of core or key motivations of types, although it seems too rigid and archetypal to be applied in reality. All other motives reduce to a single one. I'm just saying that one cannot know their own key motivation without reading an Enneagram book and believing what is written there. A typical criticism of this idea would ask why only one key motivation and not two or a dozen. Why all the psychological reductionism, hasn't psychology grown beyond Freud?

Not true, I knew damn well what my motivations in life were long before I even heard of the enneagram. Also, if psychological reductionism is going to be applied anywhere, it should be in the additional details of the enneagram, not the main part of it; less focus on intergration and health level, more focus on finding individual motivations. Once parts of it are fully defined and tested, only then can the true knowledge of factors like health levels and processes into other types be known.

Elfboy described that as one phase out of many. If you look back at his informative bio, there were various periods which he represented by some key behaviors. He vaguely mentioned some motivations but none of them match up with key motivations. Anger was one such motivation. Being a hero to others was another motivation.

There were five distinctly spelled-out phases to his childhood into adulthood. 1. The defender/protector/hero phase; 2. being picked on by bullies and retreating into a shell/confusion/caution phase; 3. an anger phase (although he was not aware of being angry), learning to defend himself primarily verbally, as you pointed out; 4. another quiet phase, not so much socially withdrawn this time but more of a self-confident charmer; 5. college, and drawing on his 3-ish ability to appear as one ennea-type while being another.

If I were forced to abandon the idea that he is a 6w5 I would have to go with 3, but with the wing type unknown. 6w5 still fits him better than any other type, to my mind. But not the 8 who willfully seeks out conflict, whereas he seemingly only attracted it at phase 3 as a kind of magnet for trouble.

I often use the "unknown-wing" to eliminate the wing's core type as a possibility.

That being said, I haven't denied that much of what Elfboy writes on himself comes across like the 8, although, among other things, he was rather too quiet and sensitive a child for that. Self-describing as a charming adult comes across as a higher-level 6, far far more than 8 or 3. Three's become charming as a manipulative ploy. Sixes simply want to make a good impression for various, more healthy reasons, mostly I think simply because they ENJOY being around other people.

You may be write in your assessment of him, I do see reasons for why he could be 3, or 6, or 8, etc. Although, Elfboy now also knows of another route to help him discover his type

 

[Mal12345]

I don't give that vibe off until you really get to know me though, and even then it's more a "oh, you're not a douche bag" vibe than specifically a nice guy vibe

That was part of your transition from phase 3 to phase 4, in which you had a previous reputation as a "douche bag" until your senior year of high school when some girl mentioned you seemed like a nice guy after all.

So what kind of vibes do you give off before someone has a chance to get to know you better?

 

[Elfboy]

That was part of your transition from phase 3 to phase 4, in which you had a previous reputation as a "douche bag" until your senior year of high school when some girl mentioned you seemed like a nice guy after all.

So what kind of vibes do you give off before someone has a chance to get to know you better?

I don't know where to begin, I give off several. most of the common ones are people say I have a "big" personality, polarizing, intense, firebrand, charismatic

 

[Mal12345]

Even so, knowing what motivates oneself doesn't take that much effort, it's often clearly present in ones actions and thoughts.

We're not talking about any old motivation, such as being thirsty and seeking water. We're talking about a "thirst" that goes all the way down to the core of one's spiritual being. That is quite a bit more abstract and esoteric than anything we can easily introspect. Of course in hindsight, once you learn the enneagram, it might seem easier, but that is post hoc thinking. And that's been my point all along. Such knowledge requires reading a book.

The problem with this is that its nothing more than the casual observations of but one man. It's not a reliable tested assessement and I'd be somewhat skeptical of it, in terms of the really complicated matters. Like, knowing fears and motivations is fairly reasonable, as we all have something that drives us, but all this stuff about growth, disintegration, wings, and such, in the absence of reliable and objective data, is nonsensical.

Objectively speaking, but not subjectively. Actually I found it all quite helpful at one time to my personal growth, even if it is completely false to the real world. There are forms of therapy out there which are helpful yet need pay no attention to whether or not the theories are empirically verifiable.

Not true, I knew damn well what my motivations in life were long before I even heard of the enneagram. Also, if psychological reductionism is going to be applied anywhere, it should be in the additional details of the enneagram, not the main part of it; less focus on intergration and health level, more focus on finding individual motivations. Once parts of it are fully defined and tested, only then can the true knowledge of factors like health levels and processes into other types be known.

We're talking about the one key motivation that rules your personality type, not the easily rooted-out derivative motives. Of course as I said in a previous comment, as a child I was motivated by finding friends. That was perhaps motivated by loneliness and feeling included. And that was a feeling motivated by - ??? I was also motivated to make good grades in elementary school in order to please my mother. That was motivated by my desire to receive maternal love and affection, which was motivated by - ???

You may be write in your assessment of him, I do see reasons for why he could be 3, or 6, or 8, etc. Although, Elfboy now also knows of another route to help him discover his type

His very self-doubt about his type points toward 6. His insistence toward me that he is an 8 - despite his previous doubts which motivated this thread - in disregard of all the evidence, comes from 6. His intellectually advanced style of debating is definitely not 8, and his kind and diligent attention paid to everybody's comments here points toward 6.

 

[Mal12345]

I don't know where to begin, I give off several. most of the common ones are people say I have a "big" personality, polarizing, intense, firebrand, charismatic

There is a distinction here to be made between that external shell type - which you say gives off ENTJ vibes and that sounds correct - and the inner, soft core which is perhaps ENFP, a very different type that people get to know only when they are close to you (or when they are allowed inside that shell, let's say). This implies a type 6, as it does with my childhood friend who scored INFP earlier in life and ENTJ a few years later. One of the pictures at the heading of a type-6 description depicted a baby in a suit of armor.

I took this opportunity to look up the ENFP description at personalitypages.com. I searched for correlations with the Enneagram and finally found this: "ENFPs almost always have a strong need to be liked." That is definitely a core motivation of the type 6. If you don't recognize it as a motivator, then perhaps you should learn to recognize it as such.

 

[Mal12345]

I guess I take it for granted that everybody here knows that the Sixes are a shell type. What you have been describing fits the type completely.

 

[Savage Idealist]

We're not talking about any old motivation, such as being thirsty and seeking water. We're talking about a "thirst" that goes all the way down to the core of one's spiritual being. That is quite a bit more abstract and esoteric than anything we can easily introspect. Of course in hindsight, once you learn the enneagram, it might seem easier, but that is post hoc thinking. And that's been my point all along. Such knowledge requires reading a book.

I know, that's what I was referring to, and I was saying that such abstract desires are usually easy to know, as by early adulthood most people know what they want; some want money, some want peace, some want to enjoy everything in life, I want to satisfy a God complex and rule the world, etc. The study of the enneagram may help with that, but it also may muddle the process when the types match a person but the descriptions do not.

Objectively speaking, but not subjectively. Actually I found it all quite helpful at one time to my personal growth, even if it is completely false to the real world. There are forms of therapy out there which are helpful yet need pay no attention to whether or not the theories are empirically verifiable.

That's wonderful and all that subjectively this knowledge has helped you; we all use some internal method of logic to learn more about ourselves and the world. But if the enneagram is to ever become anything better than a horoscope-esq psychoanalytical philosophy then it needs to be brought under an objective lens, otherwise many people who could gain help from it will just dismiss it as astrology.

We're talking about the one key motivation that rules your personality type, not the easily rooted-out derivative motives. Of course as I said in a previous comment, as a child I was motivated by finding friends. That was perhaps motivated by loneliness and feeling included. And that was a feeling motivated by - ??? I was also motivated to make good grades in elementary school in order to please my mother. That was motivated by my desire to receive maternal love and affection, which was motivated by - ???

Discovering ones motivations requires only a good understanding of self through introspection and analysis. I have spent a lot of time thinking about what I want in life, and know exactly why I want it.

His very self-doubt about his type points toward 6. His insistence toward me that he is an 8 - despite his previous doubts which motivated this thread - in disregard of all the evidence, comes from 6. His intellectually advanced style of debating is definitely not 8, and his kind and diligent attention paid to everybody's comments here points toward 6.

8 can't be kind nor diligent?

 

[Mal12345]

8 can't be kind nor diligent?

Yes, but not at the same time. Diligence requires an effort where the focus turns away from "soft" people issues and towards material rewards. Kindness only comes after the diligent effort has paid off.

Think of the type 8 as a person with dichotomized objective and subjective realms. So intent is their focus on the material world that they not only forget that you are a person with feelings, they even forget about their own bodies and ignore/repress warning signs of advancing illness until death is close on their tails. When they can no longer work (or pursue material rewards some other way), then the personal illness comes to their attention. Their own bodies are just another part of the subjective realm. If you think 8s are hard on you, that is only a reflection of how [unkindly] they treat themselves [in pursuit of the reward].

Kindness - or diligence. But never at the same time.

 

[brainheart]

I think finding the primary motivation can very much be a challenge. I thought for me it was obviously that of the four. It took me awhile to realize there's always been a clause attached: 'I will express myself and openly explore my feelings... If it won't cause me problems...if it won't make my parents think less of me... If it won't threaten my current stability and relationships..if it won't disturb my peace."

Once you figure it out, it can be remarkably epiphanic. Sometimes it takes awhile to get there.

 

[Mal12345]

I know, that's what I was referring to, and I was saying that such abstract desires are usually easy to know, as by early adulthood most people know what they want; some want money, some want peace, some want to enjoy everything in life, I want to satisfy a God complex and rule the world, etc

"Abstract" motivation is something non-derivative. You can use the terms "core" and "key" motivations. But what I want to know is this: does the desire to obtain peace explain all the rest? Does the desire to rule the world also rule all your other psychological desires? How do you know when you've peeled the onion until you hit ground zero?

 

[Mal12345]

I think finding the primary motivation can very much be a challenge. I thought for me it was obviously that of the four. It took me awhile to realize there's always been a clause attached: 'I will express myself and openly explore my feelings... If it won't cause me problems...if it won't make my parents think less of me... If it won't threaten my current stability and relationships..if it won't disturb my peace."

Once you figure it out, it can be remarkably epiphanic. Sometimes it takes awhile to get there.

I agree. Maybe some people naturally find it easier. As for the epiphany, that occurred when I concluded I was a 4 upon reading the description in Personality Types. However, I decided a month later it was a falsely-based epiphany. Not that it mattered, the benefits of studying this system as a type 4 had already occurred.

 

[Elfboy]

I just remembered I left out an essential part of my 5 minute life story. at that is from 9th to 10th grade when I became a hardcore conservative christian and was constantly condemning people as being sinful and dirty. during this time, a girl tried to flirt with me and I punched her in the face and called her a dirty whore. I requently told people that they were "out of place" and even went so far as to think that the united states should be made into a theocracy where people were forced not to sin. however, due to my extremity, I ended up following this line of thought to it's logical conclusions and thus abandoned it as that is not what God would want for the world (or he would have made it so). eventually, I began to rediscover my repressed feelings and that's when stage 2 of my self therapy could really begin. even to this day though, I find women with bad manners extremely offensive and try to carry myself upright and with integrity (though as I'm sure you're aware, I don't do this rigidly anymore). similarly, I am frequently driven to do things in a way I feel is "tasteful" (what I think is tasteful at least, not what other people think, which I usually think is digusting). looking at my interests, almost all of them relate to some sort of higher ideal or heroism, integrity, distinction or courage and I strive to be a strong hero and defender of the weak. for example, my some of my primary interests are opera, fine teas, fencing and hygiene. all of these things much be done in a "proper" way to be of good tastes and acceptable to the connoisseur. while good and bad tastes are subjective, I believe there is such thing as good and bad tastes even if they are not tangible. this side of my personality that I've left out is undeniably 1-ish and worth consideration
PS: sorry for not including it earlier (for those of you regular posters), I'm sure it would have saved a lot of hardache

Edit: as I've gotten older, I've realized that there is more than 1 right way to do something, but I think the idea that "there's no wrong way to do it" it stupid, tasteless and base. I've also realized that you cannot force someone to except what you believe is right as true conviction and integrity are not something you can give anyone.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Your're not 1w9.