Hand Gestures

[Mind Maverick]

It's a risk I run only when I'm dealing with Americans apparently, since in my country it's just a normal symbol, and up to now I've always associated with people from my own country or at most the rest of Europe or Asia and Africa both in real life and online. Maybe I should keep it that way, I don't know all things about American culture, just as I am sure you people from the US don't know everything about other countries and what's happening there, and if I'll risk doing something wrong every time I click the "sumbit" button and have to worry over it for days, I'd rather keep to my small bubble. I know this may sound like overreacting to it and it probably is, but I'm really sorry for how things went, I don't even want American white supremacists to ever have an interest in me just because I used what in my country is just a funny, happy sign, that and the fact that I already have several things that are difficult to deal with in my life and I don't want to receive other kinds of worry in my free time; I've already received much stress from this misunderstanding alone, and while for a neurotypical or emotionally stable person it might seem like a stupid point of view, for a person that's already battling with other stressful and energy-draining problems it's not. I'll just keep posting my dumb pictures where people won't misinterpret is as something else, just as I've always done up to now. I'm sorry that a light-hearted and positive thread turned into such a mess because of me, I wish I'd never posted my picture here

I'm sorry this was your experience. It's understandable and not overreacting at all that you would feel that way in response. I can understand why it'd create more stress for someone who is not neurotypical or emotionally stable, as I have mental health problems / am going through things that cause me to lack emotional stability in some ways myself. Thankfully though, the way this thread has gone, this dynamic, is not the usual experience here and I don't believe you will keep having this problem by continuing to post your pics here, but I can't blame you if you choose not to anyway.

I see. I didn't know in America racists were open about being racist and even proud of it. In my country we do have a racism problem as well, but it's kinda seen as a shameful thing by a lot of people and usually racists try to stay "in the closet" about it or try to deny the fact they're racist not to be criticized by people. The few people who are openly and proudly racist in my country are seen as deranged and to be avoided, so it was automatic for me to assume that no one in their sane mind would deliberately post a picture of themselves using a racist symbol or admit it proudly when they're asked about it. I see that in the end it was just a cultural problem, as a person coming from outside the US I can't know everything about it, just like Americans can't know everything about other countries, not to mention that the media here have hardly talked about the protests and the bits of information you can gain online from here are not very specific

Nah, they're not always open or proud about it. That is a very small percentage of racists. The majority are more like those who are closeted as you described. "Dog whistling," what you were basically accused of, is intended to be sort of discreet even, something that attracts like-minded people without raising alarm from opposing members...so tbh I disagree with @Powehi here, no offense. Either way, the statements made were basically accusatory without much basis and they were inappropriate. I don't think it was a cultural difference. Please don't summarize it as a cultural thing. Most of the people who defended you were American as well.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Oh God

I plead the moderators to move these posts to off topic posts..

I'd personally request to move it to politics or something to give people a place to talk about this subject and gain some clarity rather than just moving to off topic.

 

[ceecee]

White supremacists using the OK symbol as a white power signal to other white supremacists, that everyone knows are white supremacist is kind of redundant, yes?

 

[Sacrophagus]

I will speak of what I see, and what I see is a question. I can't interpret the intentions behind it, it is not my place. I think it is also safer for you guys to judge the person with what you see, and show a little bit of patience just because the style is not sugarcoated.


I don't think rav3n meant any disrespect when she asked her question. Her question supported a "Yes" or "No" answer and it would've been the end of the story. She's not a sweet talker, and she knows that.

Time to move on.

 

[Jaguar]

Is that the deliberate use of the white supremacist power symbol?

Your optimism is touching. *dabs eye with tissue*

 

[Mind Maverick]

...Maybe moving it to here was a bad idea. Really wanted the topic to be about the use of hand gestures, not rav3n. I don't want this to become like an entire thread where people start teaming up on someone over something that is honestly rather small.

 

[Jaguar]

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[Luminous]

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Clearly they are all white supremacists. Clearly.

 

[Earl Grey]

I am a PADI-certified diver. As far as I am concerned, the 'OK' symbol is an international diving symbol to signal that things are OK underwater- it is an official language, and not just a fun silly thing when used underwater. I was cautioned by my divemaster to not accidentally use signs that are diving signs underwater while say, taking selfies so that the meaning will take root and I won't use it by accident underwater, because these signals are taken very seriously- sometimes they can save your life.

I was following the exchanges as they were being posted, and I very much agree with what TN said-

So, when any random conservative/hate group decides to use a certain innocent symbol, everyone has to stop using it? We just 'donate' a peaceful symbol to people who spew hate?

If homophobes decide today that the rainbow flag is now a symbol for homosexual genocide (or whatever) I'll continue to use it anyway. It's not their sign and it never will be. Same for the 'ok' hand gesture. Hate groups can back off and should be punished for being a hate group in the first place.

Some of these aren't just willy nilly silly little happy signs. The LGBT flag is a serious symbol for an informal organization for a marginalized demographic. The 'OK' sign has a serious meaning in its proper context, and who knows what other contexts and what other sign languages that are out there. The bastardization does not make the symbol theirs, and if they try, ideally there should be some pushback instead of accepting it and relinquishing your space so that these people can encroach into temporary culture further than they already are doing.

It's an exchange that can very much turn dirty, but these people have no right to have encroached on the world as much as they have. Don't give them an inch further. It is a fight that is necessary.

 

[SD45T-2]

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There's a donut shop down the street from me that's been there for generations, and their sign has a picture of a happy-looking chef giving the okay sign. Somehow it's never been a problem.

But this is 2020, so I suppose it's only a matter of time before Antifa burns the place down.

 

[Coriolis]

So, when any random conservative/hate group decides to use a certain innocent symbol, everyone has to stop using it? We just 'donate' a peaceful symbol to people who spew hate?

The world gave up on the swastika after it was appropriated by the Nazis. Is it time to rehabilitate that previously innocent symbol? It represented spirituality, prosperity, and good luck for centuries in many cultures.

 

[Sacrophagus]

The world gave up on the swastika after it was appropriated by the Nazis. Is it time to rehabilitate that previously innocent symbol? It represented spirituality, prosperity, and good luck for centuries in many cultures.

Symbols will appear, disappear, and reappear as culture changes. Sometimes out of knowledge it previously existed and had a different meaning, and sometimes without even realizing it previously existed. The same symbol today is used across the world and has different meanings. That's the plight of symbolism and the ill confusion it attracts.

I prefer to not interpret the meaning of a symbol from an unknown source unless there is context with substantial information. A symbol alone is not enough to carry its meaning. Even then, the interpretation remains to be proven.

 

[Red Herring]

The world gave up on the swastika after it was appropriated by the Nazis. Is it time to rehabilitate that previously innocent symbol? It represented spirituality, prosperity, and good luck for centuries in many cultures.

First of all I would argue that the Third Reich is much harder to ignore than a bunch of 4Chan losers on the internet. I agree that some battles for symbols are hopelessly lost, but I wouldn't want to grant those white supremacists that much power.
Also *pushes glasses up nose* the swastika in its original meaning isn't gone. I have seen it widely used in India. As far as I know it is still an important symbol in Hinduism. For example, I saw it as a blessing next to the front door of a farmers family home.

 

[Earl Grey]

The world gave up on the swastika after it was appropriated by the Nazis. Is it time to rehabilitate that previously innocent symbol? It represented spirituality, prosperity, and good luck for centuries in many cultures.

I grew up Buddhist. Some statues in houses have Buddhist deities with swastikas, or what I knew as 萬字 (wànzì) on them. It was also my first exposure to Swastikas. It is normally interpret in its traditional/religious meaning- there was never a, "Oh, but the Western world sees it as..." (imagine me having world history as a student in school and initially wondering why the heck Germans were 'Buddhists', by mistake). There are Buddhist denominations out there whose priests use the symbol on their robes.

I don't know if 'rehabilitate' would be the right word if it was never truly 'ruined' or lost for a certain culture / group / religion, especially ones with actual ties where the symbol originated from.

As a fun fact to non Buddhist folks.

I also don't know if posting the symbol for educational reasons would be allowed here but I won't take the risk. I don't know about other Asian countries specifically, but the Chinese are very serious about symbolism and getting all the funny little visual details and ritualistic processes right, and this also bleeds into their religious practices. I won't be surprised if the Nazi Swastika will not considered a 'proper swastika' because of how it is oriented- look at pictures of the Buddhist Swastika and compare with the one the Nazis used as a symbol. It's flipped, mirrored. If that seems trivial to you, who is not familiar with the Swastika, connotatively it's like turning the Christian cross upside down.

Most importantly- I hope that this can tie a parallel to the OK hand sign / symbol- this (the swastika) is an example of a symbol widely bastardized, but never abandoned by its real users and still possessing its original meaning.

 

[Schrödinger's Name]

The world gave up on the swastika after it was appropriated by the Nazis. Is it time to rehabilitate that previously innocent symbol? It represented spirituality, prosperity, and good luck for centuries in many cultures.

I think this is a bad comparison. Especially since culture, time and context matters. I didn't know what the swastika symbol originally meant but I do feel bad for the people who had to 'give up' their symbol because a bunch of Nazis took it from them. (Though as I am Googling I think people in certain cultures still use this symbol anyway- with the original meaning) However now in our time and culture it's obviously a symbol that represents hate and the swastika symbol was never used 'peacefully' in our culture before (if I am correct). We have bad connotations with the symbol now, because people allowed Nazis to do the things they did. And it's illegal in some countries to use the swastika so, no.
And this was exactly the point in my message; it's not an official hate symbol yet, and we shouldn't let it become one. My stance is that hate groups are not allowed to exist. That would mean that they are not able to use a symbol for their group. If they try to do so anyway, they could get prosecuted.

 

[Sacrophagus]

This takes this thread to a whole new level of woke. *laughs*

 

[Maou]

The okay symbol was a 4chan trolling attempt that became successful. Their plan was to turn harmless symbols into hate symbols to portray how stupidly easy it was to make something a "racist dog whistle" by making up bullshit about it, like how its a WP which means whitebpowa! lol. I personally seen this happen in real time.

[MENTION=39622]ThisName[/MENTION]
[MENTION=35566]Luminous[/MENTION]
[MENTION=10808]rav3n[/MENTION]
[MENTION=33717]Hermit of the Forest[/MENTION]

 

[Maou]

I think people should calm the fuck down, and not let a group of people appropriate everything harmless. As well as not be offended by things actual white supremists use. I never got rhe mindset of abandoning things once a bad person used it. Isn't that literally giving them power over you? What will you do when they appropriate the peace sign, or waving hello? Ridiculous weakness is all it is.

 

[Lexicon]

What this thread immediately brought to mind:

...I know. I’ll show myself out.

[Fe disclaimer] I do think the thread topic itself is a valid & important thing to discuss— don’t take my post as discounting that. Just sharing what immediately popped into my head, regardless of its (ir)relevance. A fluff-sidenote.[/Fe]

 

[Sacrophagus]

What this thread immediately brought to mind:

That was horrible. I like it.