Gender Fluidity

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Just how much do you identify with your own gender?

A lot. I have always identified as a man. Do I completely externally fit it? No, but that doesn't mean I identify with it any less.


Do you think gender is innate?

Yes. A lot of people seem to think so, but I that to me just reeks of people being allergic to categories and labels. Society has an influence, but it's more that society fits the scale. Depending on where and when you are born, is going to determine the area on that particular scale you fall on.


Do you think that it is important to have set gender roles, even loose ones?

I think it's important to be able to differentiate between genders. In particular I do not think people should be condemned for wanting to fit to any particular gender role. I have a difficult time understanding gender fludity, and I don't particularly care for it. If people feel that way though, then have at it.

We should know what is typical male, and what is typical female. Whether or not people like it, there are connections between sex and gender. They are independent, but connected. Men and women look and act a particular way biologically for a reason. I think it's foolish to try and intentionally blur that. Gender roles will never go away.

You think gender-fluid people should be closeted?

 

[á´…eparted]

You think gender-fluid people should be closeted?

Of course not. As I said people can and should be who they feel they naturally are, and at the same token let others be who they want.

 

[á´…eparted]

You think gender-fluid people should be closeted?

Ah, to clarify this:

Men and women look and act a particular way biologically for a reason. I think it's foolish to try and intentionally blur that.

I mean to intentionally blur standards of what define male and female apperance/behavior typically are, as they are rooted in biology.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Of course not. As I said people can and should be who they feel they naturally are, and at the same token let others be who they want.

Can they be gender-fluid in public, or is that shoving it in people's faces?

I mean to intentionally blur standards of what define male and female apperance/behavior typically are, as they are rooted in biology.

I don't know what "rooted in biology" means. If it's "rooted in biology," then show me some actual scientific research.

I've come across scientific research about intersex people and some of the shit they have to put up with, and if we're considering anthropology a science, many Native American tribes had a third gender traditionally speaking.

 

[á´…eparted]

Can they be gender-fluid in public, or is that shoving it in people's faces?

That's not shoving it in peoples faces at all?

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't know what "rooted in biology" means. If it's "rooted in biology," then show me some actual scientific research.

I've come across scientific research about intersex people and some of the shit they have to put up with, and if we're considering anthropology a science, many Native American tribes had a third gender traditionally speaking.

It's pretty self evident.

There are two sexes: male, and female. They are frequently correlated with male gender, and female gender. Male traits, and female traits. Not everyone fits them, some don't fit them at all. Nevertheless there are standards and norms. That is what I mean.

I am not discussing this further, I am just going to get angry.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Nevertheless there are standards and norms.

Marriage has had standards and norms associated with it in this country, as well. I suppose we shouldn't support overturning those and upsetting everything. Society needs stability, and we shouldn't upset that balance just to please a bunch of people who are too selfish to fit in with the rest of society.

 

[Coriolis]

We should know what is typical male, and what is typical female. Whether or not people like it, there are connections between sex and gender. They are independent, but connected. Men and women look and act a particular way biologically for a reason. I think it's foolish to try and intentionally blur that. Gender roles will never go away.

They will surely not go away as long as people cling to them for dear life, unable to make their way in the world by determining on their own what makes sense for them. If male and female are so inherent, it should be obvious what they are. The fact that discussions like this even take place shows that it isn't nearly that clear-cut. At most they are abstractions or archetypes that don't fit any real human. Sure, physiology is determined by biological function, but there is no basis for extrapolating that to how we act outside of all but the most basic reproductive activities.

I put it this way: I identify as male, I like looking like a male, I like being a male, don't you tell me that's bad and not do that. Just as I am not going to tell you what to do and be. There's so much irony within the gender fight, and it's one of the biggest reasons I get so ticked off by it.

As long as gender is descriptive and not normative, then fine. People should identify with a gender, or even a gender role, because they really feel that suits them rather than out of social pressure or any expectation from others.

It's pretty self evident.

There are two sexes: male, and female. They are frequently correlated with male gender, and female gender. Male traits, and female traits. Not everyone fits them, some don't fit them at all. Nevertheless there are standards and norms. That is what I mean.

It's not that self-evident at all, at least for those who have ambiguous physiology or a discrepancy between their body and their gender identity.

 

[á´…eparted]

They will surely not go away as long as people cling to them for dear life, unable to make their way in the world by determining on their own what makes sense for them. If male and female are so inherent, it should be obvious what they are. The fact that discussions like this even take place shows that it isn't nearly that clear-cut. At most they are abstractions or archetypes that don't fit any real human. Sure, physiology is determined by biological function, but there is no basis for extrapolating that to how we act outside of all but the most basic reproductive activities.

As long as gender is descriptive and not normative, then fine. People should identify with a gender, or even a gender role, because they really feel that suits them rather than out of social pressure or any expectation from others.

It's not that self-evident at all, at least for those who have ambiguous physiology or a discrepancy between their body and their gender identity.

The basis of biological function is a shortcut, and it's one countless people use every single day. You can tell if someone is male or female. Often, that is informative of the person, and it can lend to information about them. Some it doesn't, but you can usually tell in a minute or so if it's informative of them or not. I honestly find myself getting very annoyed and flustered if I meet someone, and their sex is ambiguous (not gender, sex). It could be because of my Aspergers but I get stuck and confused by it, and I really don't like it since it feels like a broken fundemental. I hide it and people don't know that I am thrown out of whack. I also tend to have issues with individuals if their apparent sex and gender are mismatched or unclear. I will default to wanting to use he/she pronouns based off their sex, not their gender. It's wrong, but it results in me slipping and calling them the wrong pronoun for their gender very frequently. I feel constantly on edge the entire time because if I don't pay explicit attention, I will make a mistake.

Your statement of descriptive and not normative is actually what I mean. That is a much better word choice. Do what feels right.

 

[Coriolis]

The basis of biological function is a shortcut, and it's one countless people use every single day. You can tell if someone is male or female. Often, that is informative of the person, and it can lend to information about them. Some it doesn't, but you can usually tell in a minute or so if it's informative of them or not. I honestly find myself getting very annoyed and flustered if I meet someone, and their sex is ambiguous (not gender, sex). It could be because of my Aspergers but I get stuck and confused by it, and I really don't like it since it feels like a broken fundemental. I hide it and people don't know that I am thrown out of whack. I also tend to have issues with individuals if their apparent sex and gender are mismatched or unclear. I will default to wanting to use he/she pronouns based off their sex, not their gender. It's wrong, but it results in me slipping and calling them the wrong pronoun for their gender very frequently. I feel constantly on edge the entire time because if I don't pay explicit attention, I will make a mistake.

Language is the one area where we are almost forced to make an assumption, just so we can talk with people. The best we can do there is to be understanding and courteous when someone guesses wrong, whichever end of the encounter we are on. Other than that, though, I think assumptions do more harm than good and should be avoided in favor of simply asking what you want to know. (I can see where Aspergers might make things more of a challenge, and having clear ROE can help.)

 

[á´…eparted]

Language is the one area where we are almost forced to make an assumption, just so we can talk with people. The best we can do there is to be understanding and courteous when someone guesses wrong, whichever end of the encounter we are on. Other than that, though, I think assumptions do more harm than good and should be avoided in favor of simply asking what you want to know. (I can see where Aspergers might make things more of a challenge, and having clear ROE can help.)

I feel absolutely HORRIBLE when I mess up gender pronouns. I instantly correct myself (usually miliseconds later) when I know I make a mistake. In my head I feel like have to intentionally give the *wrong* answer, because it's the *right* answer, and it throws me off. It makes me never want to see the person again because I know how bad that feels for them, and I don't want to put myself around someone if I am unable to show proper respect. It's not right, and it's not fair. I also just don't well handle the stress of it.

I make ALL KINDS of assumptions about people. I absolutely have to in order to function, but I rarely act on them outright unless they are very basic, harmless, rarely wrong, and common. Think of it this way: I have a massive check list of assumptions I make about people, all effectively hypothesis's that have high likelyhoods of being correct. When I meed someone new, I bring this up in my head and start to look for things. Then, through interact with them, I wait to see if they're confirmed. If they are, then I check it off again and can interact with them more effectively. If not, then I cross it out and disgard the assumption. It's a reason why when I meet new people I come across as rather cold and distant. I need the checklists to be filled out properly. Some people fill it in very quick, others take forever and it's never filled out all the way.

Also, what does ROE stand for? Google isn't being clear for this context.

 

[Coriolis]

I feel absolutely HORRIBLE when I mess up gender pronouns. I instantly correct myself (usually miliseconds later) when I know I make a mistake. In my head I feel like have to intentionally give the *wrong* answer, because it's the *right* answer, and it throws me off. It makes me never want to see the person again because I know how bad that feels for them, and I don't want to put myself around someone if I am unable to show proper respect. It's not right, and it's not fair. I also just don't well handle the stress of it.

Since it seems this has happened to you more than a couple times, have you ever thought ahead of time about how you might address it? What you might say to the other person so that you could continue to interact productively - perhaps even better, since you would have shared this uncomfortable experience and gone beyond it?

I make ALL KINDS of assumptions about people. I absolutely have to in order to function, but I rarely act on them outright unless they are very basic, harmless, rarely wrong, and common. Think of it this way: I have a massive check list of assumptions I make about people, all effectively hypothesis's that have high likelyhoods of being correct. When I meed someone new, I bring this up in my head and start to look for things. Then, through interact with them, I wait to see if they're confirmed. If they are, then I check it off again and can interact with them more effectively. If not, then I cross it out and disgard the assumption. It's a reason why when I meet new people I come across as rather cold and distant. I need the checklists to be filled out properly. Some people fill it in very quick, others take forever and it's never filled out all the way.

I think it is in human nature to assume. There is probably some evolutionary basis for it, better be safe than sorry and all that. The important part is the highlighted - that you don't act on them unless they are extremely commonplace. The second important part is that you are gracious when corrected (I suspect you are).

Also, what does ROE stand for? Google isn't being clear for this context.

Sorry - rules of engagement.

See - I assumed you would know what ROE stood for. I was wrong. You pointed out that you didn't know, and I explained myself. Errors in judging sex/gender can be handled similarly.

 

[á´…eparted]

Since it seems this has happened to you more than a couple times, have you ever thought ahead of time about how you might address it? What you might say to the other person so that you could continue to interact productively - perhaps even better, since you would have shared this uncomfortable experience and gone beyond it?

I think it is in human nature to assume. There is probably some evolutionary basis for it, better be safe than sorry and all that. The important part is the highlighted - that you don't act on them unless they are extremely commonplace. The second important part is that you are gracious when corrected (I suspect you are).

Sorry - rules of engagement.

See - I assumed you would know what ROE stood for. I was wrong. You pointed out that you didn't know, and I explained myself. Errors in judging sex/gender can be handled similarly.

This discussion is reminding me of how pointlessly complicated I am sometimes .

I'm not sure. I rarely interact with transgender individuals, or non-binary gender individual (at least to a level that throws me off), as there just aren't any in my common interaction social circle. Though, a transgender man will be joining the group next month I believe. My MO has always been to instantly correct myself, than carefully watch to see if there is ever any negative reaction; there never is. It seems like a huge social faux-pa to talk about it or appologize. I'm very afraid of screwing it up or protracting it since it's a sensitive issue. I can't tell if it they feel like it would be helpful or productive if I appologized. Reason being, since I corrected myself, they are likely to respond as "you corrected yourself, no worries.". If they do have a problem they might say "just please be mindful". The latter I am unfortunately afraid of, because I can not promise or garuntee I won't mess up again. It would be deceitful to say I would, since my actions would run counter to it. It feels like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. Talking about it seems to have a higher likelyhood of making it worse, not talking about it already is bad.

I think if I more frequently hang out with unclear genders I might learn better with experience? I hope so anyway.

I am almost always gracious if I am corrected on something I screwed up. I drive to be as fair as possible with that (always have). I've actually gotten numerous compliments from co-workers saying "you're really good at taking constructive criticism". I taught myself to be so as I recognized it's an essential skill to have to take being corrected in a productive, and non-reactive manner. It's also because as a child, if it were done to me I'd either balk at it, or completely fall apart.

You're also unique in this regard, and it brings up another point. I know you are "safe" to ask for clairifications on. I don't ask if I feel like it's inappropriate or wrong to do so. I generally don't if I am unsure. It feels like a bad breech of ettiqute to do such things. I don't want to wrongly assume. In the case dealing with the topic at hand, I simply can not tell if it's safe to ask for clarification, and it's very painful to breech those sorts of things, much more so if I mess up. I experience a significant amount of shame when I screw up socially on wrongful assumptions.

Anyway, I am going off on tangents now.

 

[Cellmold]

Just how much do you identify with your own gender? Do you think gender is innate? Do you think that it is important to have set gender roles, even loose ones? Has the divide between how certain genders are viewed, including predjudicial aspects really changed or improved?

How do you view gender in any regard?

I don't really identify with a set value of my gender. I see myself as being part of a selection of traits that could be attributed to either.

However I do respect the part biology plays. Higher levels of testosterone in a man (from my limited understanding) increases aggression and muscle development so men with higher levels are more stereotypically masculine.

However I've read that too much is actually a negative when it comes to intelligence and partly explains why men have such varied outliers with regards to intelligence as compared to women who are more consistent in that area.

But as a male I can say I've experienced a huge variety of people and a lot of them did buck trends of gender depending on context. For example i know more than a few women here who could knock the teeth out of most men and it certainly isn't a set street when it comes to individual strength and toughness. Interestingly as a teen I noticed that the boys slowly seemed to move away from the emotional openness many of them displayed when they were younger and suddenly a great fear set in.
The fear of being considered gay. That was like a predominately ever present fear, you could be considered anything but gay. There were boys who definitely were more stereotypically masculine from the start though, but I knew far more who weren't and who were more willing to be affectionate and vulnerable.

This is not to say I think that all people who dislike homosexuality are scared of it, just that in the environment it clearly was a fear.
Although I'm not saying those stereotyped traits are all socailly or culturally manufactured, but I do think a lot of them are exaggerated in that way humans tend to do. I think we, as a species, are somewhat self aware but at the same time we still have a lot of blind spots and we tend to fill those blind spots in with convenient assumption. People aren't deviations from a standard template separated by experiences, but they also aren't uninfluenced by experience either.

There shouldn't be any issue with being more standard in your gender traits but there also shouldn't be a pressure to be so if those traits are not a comfortable fit. The difficult part is in divining what is and isn't manufactured by an environment, standard or not.

Frankly for myself as I slowly creep out into the world I'm getting more certain that I'm closer to the middle of the Kinsey scale than I was previously aware of.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I generally just feel like a person. I enjoy and indulge in both elements of traditional gender roles if they make me feel good.

Gender fluidity or gender identity politics is something white kids made up when the gays started getting all the sympathy and attention. If gender isn't tied to sex then it's meaningless; there's either 2 genders or none, so STFU, stop blogging on tumblr, and get a job.

 

[Coriolis]

This is not to say I think that all people who dislike homosexuality are scared of it, just that in the environment it clearly was a fear.

You raise an interesting point here. I am familiar with the idea of men fearing to be thought gay. This seems to extend to other groups as well - successful blacks not wanting to seem like they are "trying to be white", or women afraid of being considered masculine if they demonstrate physical ability, intelligence, or business acumen. Why is there an element of fear associated with being mistaken for something we are not? How far does it go? Would someone be afraid to be incorrectly associated with a religious or cultural group? To have their occupation or a skill/hobby assumed wrong (aren't you the one who does ballroom dancing?)

My personal reactions to such errors range from amusement to bemusement to curiosity at how someone arrived at an incorrect assumption. But I cannot ever recall being afraid.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I generally just feel like a person. I enjoy and indulge in both elements of traditional gender roles if they make me feel good.

Gender fluidity or gender identity politics is something white kids made up when the gays started getting all the sympathy and attention. If gender isn't tied to sex then it's meaningless; there's either 2 genders or none, so STFU, stop blogging on tumblr, and get a job.

The distinction had to be made precisely because people don't behave a certain personality just because of their physical sex, but there is an extremely pervasive assumption that they do. Gender is fluid because it is not nearly as close to being real as sex.

That being said, if I perfectly fixed gender to sex, and included all people, there would still be more than two genders because there are more than two sexes. Lots and lots of ways to not be male or female, even if the sum of all people who do fail still make up a relatively small percentage of the population.

 

[JocktheMotie]

The distinction had to be made precisely because people don't behave a certain personality just because of their physical sex, but there is an extremely pervasive assumption that they do. Gender is fluid because it is not nearly as close to being real as sex.

That being said, if I perfectly fixed gender to sex, and included all people, there would still be more than two genders because there are more than two sexes. Lots and lots of ways to not be male or female, even if the sum of all people who do fail still make up a relatively small percentage of the population.

Again, this is really why I say there are either 2 genders or none, the latter of which I'm a believer in. If gender is really just the social construct of expected behavioural characteristics, we should really just do away with it. It is a meaningless construct in a society where a person shouldn't be socially limited by their sex and should be treated as human individuals, which is what we're ultimately going for. Unless I missed the latest manifesto on Salon.com.

Outside of intersex people and/or hermaphrodites, which is really more of a rare medical condition, I'm not sure how many more additional sexes there are, or if it's even meaningful to create a differentiation for <1% of people who might fall under a genetic or physiological abnormality.

 

[Cellmold]

You raise an interesting point here. I am familiar with the idea of men fearing to be thought gay. This seems to extend to other groups as well - successful blacks not wanting to seem like they are "trying to be white", or women afraid of being considered masculine if they demonstrate physical ability, intelligence, or business acumen. Why is there an element of fear associated with being mistaken for something we are not? How far does it go? Would someone be afraid to be incorrectly associated with a religious or cultural group? To have their occupation or a skill/hobby assumed wrong (aren't you the one who does ballroom dancing?)

My personal reactions to such errors range from amusement to bemusement to curiosity at how someone arrived at an incorrect assumption. But I cannot ever recall being afraid.

Well I think yours is a more self-aware response; you know and accept it to be an incorrect assumption. Which is actually quite a simple and straightforward way to deal with it (simple is great in social stuff) but I think most people have a whole host of neuroticisms and hang-ups which create a lot of noise in their interactions with each other.

Things people often refuse to face up to and where they may even kill one another over rather than try to change or deal with it. For them it is just a priori that this is something bad and you musn't be that thing. In certain environments I can see why there is an intense need to try to control ones image, for example in a dangerous urban area of might makes right and what is commonly assumed to be weakness cannot be risked or else the culture of that area will result in some form of harm.

 

[cascadeco]

I identify as my gender, and always have. In terms of roles, choices, behaviors, hobbies, I am very feminine in some ways as society/culture defines femininity, and not as much in other ways. In terms of mannerisms, probably almost 100% stereotypically feminine, I imagine this is partially social conditioning, but likely moreso just my innate nature -- ie combined with upbringing, I have a nature that isn't really opposed to coming across this way or seeing anything wrong with it, is aligned with some of it already, so I never went against it.

Re roles, I don't really care about them in and of themselves, people as individuals just need to be who they are, and find those who are compatible with who they are. Mutual happiness and acceptance and all of that.