Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

Some good points here:

This is what worries me about game of thrones after last nights episode

Good article. It gives words to some of what I've been feeling.

I didn't really read the books (just a few excerpts of interest) but I know GRRM's reputation and I noticed a distinct quality in the story plotting once the show went 'off book.' Too many things felt generalized and done to create some kind of dramatic scene versus making sense. Maybe that's why I was laughing last night through much of the episode. For example, Dany is ripping into Varys mainly to rip into Varys to create a feeling of danger and set up Varys speech about how committed he is to Westeros but not to a ruler. It wasn't that it was poorly written or acted, but it just felt kind of over-the-top and done for the drama quotient rather than because it necessarily made sense. When Uncle Crazypants crashed into the ships from out of the mist, I was like, "This is ridiculous, how did he even know where they were?" But of course he did. Because he might even just accidentally run into them just leaving the port of King's Landing, with all the ship traffic through that bay area. Durrr.....

With an understanding of geography, yes, it does feel kind of dumb to have Dany go to Dragonstone. But of course she had to. Because they had to have that scene of her entering the keep, and they need her to be there to be accessible to Jon Snow when he rides down, and she needs to have control of the Dragonglass so that she and Jon can make an alliance and forge weapons to fight the undead army, and... well, there's all the plotting, very blatant and very obvious, and details and sensibilities are overlooked. The trick for an author is to mask your intentions even if you DO have a plan -- the characters still have to be making the decisions and doing what is in their best interest or according to their personalities regardless of what lofty plans the writer has for the story -- but here I've been feeling a lot in the last season and this (and even some of season five) that it's really just about this plot, so how do we move characters to where they need to be to enact the plot? It's the predictability of it all that is annoying, and I don't really feel like characters are getting their just desserts or doing what is natural to them.

I totally agree on the thing between Sansa and Jon, there is no reason for it to happen so publicly but hey it keeps happening. Because they need someone to stir the pot plot-wise.

My joke about Arya getting her hand bitten off by Nymeria... well, wouldn't that make sense? The last time that wolf and she spent time together, she threw rocks at it to chase it off. Yes, she did it for Nymeria's own good, but would the wolf have known that at such a young age? Maybe or maybe not. Most of the time though, when you put down your weapon and approach an alpha wolf, what does the alpha wolf do especially if it remembers you drove it away with rocks years ago? I guess we'll see that on a Simpsons' episode some day but not here. But it's kind of the same thing, things should happen because of what people do or don't do; people's greatest enemies are themselves.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

For example, Dany is ripping into Varys mainly to rip into Varys to create a feeling of danger and set up Varys speech about how committed he is to Westeros but not to a ruler. It wasn't that it was poorly written or acted, but it just felt kind of over-the-top and done for the drama quotient rather than because it necessarily made sense.

I thought that too but I think they did that for the audience to not question her lack of suspicion towards Melisandre. What's good for one is good for the other sort of logic.

I totally agree on the thing between Sansa and Jon, there is no reason for it to happen so publicly but hey it keeps happening. Because they need someone to stir the pot plot-wise.

If I was Jon, I would have left Lady Mormont in charge. Jon seems to reason everything through a humane and tactical lens and tries to balance it, sometimes to a default but Lady Mormont has some of that "let's stop and think about this" mentality that I think complements Jon leadership style. Sansa is much more pragmatic in her approach and much more distrusting of humanity. Why would you leave someone in your place (Sansa) as a leader that holds very opposing ideas of prioritizing decisions? Not only that but challenges you publicly instead of privately? It sort of sets up the stage for a coup. It baffled me but okay....bad decision.

It was nice to see Jon put Baelish against the wall. I'm glad he sees through him.

Also, good seque from grayscale surgery to pot pie crust....lol and Hot Pie is my favorite character name to date.

 

[Totenkindly]

yes, the segues in this episode were actually quite lovely and often amusing, at least.

I agree with you about Sansa. I mean, sometimes people just place family loyalty over sensible loyalties; Sansa is a Stark. But it's true that her ideas run antithetical to Jon's, and whenever that has happened in history -- having trouble remembering examples right now -- well, it's like handing free reign to your enemy = the person undermining you.

Lady Mormant has a lot of voice in the current council, far more than you would expect for a girl and a very young lord come so recently into her own power. But when she speaks, men six times her age listen. She would have been an admirable choice and a sensible one.

But Sansa... would she have taken it poorly? Did Jon pick her mainly to say "I disagree with you and hate how you keep attacking me... but I still trust you"? Because if Sansa turns on Jon or thinks he no longer trusts her, well, she can be a rotten enemy to have....

EDIT:

This Theory About Samwell Tarly Is The Only Game Of Thrones Fan Theory I Believe

We've already discussed this here in the past (including the entire opening sequence and what it represents), and it's a fair guess. In fact, it's the kind of theory that if I were writing the books, I would probably incorporate into the books even if I hadn't planned on it because it makes too much sense.

 

[Beorn]

My joke about Arya getting her hand bitten off by Nymeria... well, wouldn't that make sense? The last time that wolf and she spent time together, she threw rocks at it to chase it off. Yes, she did it for Nymeria's own good, but would the wolf have known that at such a young age? Maybe or maybe not. Most of the time though, when you put down your weapon and approach an alpha wolf, what does the alpha wolf do especially if it remembers you drove it away with rocks years ago? I guess we'll see that on a Simpsons' episode some day but not here. But it's kind of the same thing, things should happen because of what people do or don't do; people's greatest enemies are themselves.

In the show did all the starks have warg connections with their direwolves? They did in the books. You would think that connection would be stronger than whatever happened when they separated. But I mostly think that this scene and the hot pie scene are just a means to break up Arya's killing spree.

Of course her lines to Hot Pie about making one or two pies was lol funny.

Edit: Checked a wiki and I guess I remembered wrongly. I think in the books there were just allusions that starks besides bran might be wargs since I'm pretty sure they had dreams of their wolves at night. At least I think Arya did.

 

[Totenkindly]

The show didn't really suggest any warg ability except for Bran and for that wilding warg a few seasons ago. Some speculated he would survive his assassination by warging into Ghost, but it seems it was all the Red Woman to thank for his return.

 

[Forever]

This is for last season's game of thrones but I found it so funny

Note: Don't watch if you haven't seen some of Season 6 yet.

 

[Qre:us]

This Theory About Samwell Tarly Is The Only Game Of Thrones Fan Theory I Believe
We've already discussed this here in the past (including the entire opening sequence and what it represents), and it's a fair guess. In fact, it's the kind of theory that if I were writing the books, I would probably incorporate into the books even if I hadn't planned on it because it makes too much sense.

Yes, makes perfect sense. He's the knowledge keeper. The witness to the generations. But, whose story (or stories) is he telling?

I keep coming back to another story that remains incomplete. That of filling the blank, and skipped, parts of the book documenting the knights’ heroic deeds. I am very, very curious about how the series/story will address that hanging point. Who will finish/write in this book? And at the end of our story, what will it say?
I have a wild and far-fetched theory about that, the one I’m calling the King Arthur Angle. Lol. Also the tragic love story angle.

It’s a long winded explanation but I may post in the near future.

Also agree with others, that at this point on the screen, it is less a service to nuanced character development than moving plot along. 2 seasons left. Either way, has been a pretty enjoyable ride!

 

[Andy]

I liked this episode until the last scene and a half.

What was up with re-introducing Nymeria and then having her run away? What a tease. And then to top that off we get the Sand Snakes again, although thankfully, I think they all get killed off here. They were so cool in the books, but they've been so lame on the screen. Here, they just come off as kind of stupid and like they think they're more badass then they actually are. I don't really buy them as having an element of danger here. The only Dornish character of any interest left appeared to survive, though. Ellaria is the only one who conveys any sense of menace, although she's quite different then in the book. Also... I don't know what Theon was supposed to do there, but just jump in the water.... what the hell was that about? It doesn't help that Euron in the book is a lot more interesting, and while his scene last week wasn't bad and showed a promise of rectifying things somewhat, this was kind of goofy and just resulted in a bunch of characters that do nothing except irritate everyone getting killed off. (I'm assuming Yara and Ellaria are still alive, for now. ) The jaunty swagger he had in King's Landing in the preview looked like maybe a return to the promise of the premiere.

On the other hand, we did get the return of Hot Pie. I was hoping they would bring him back, and that scene was actually quite good.

I think the scene with the wolves/worgs was supposed to be a foreshadow of events to come. Wolves have always been used to represent the starks. When her worg turned it's back on her, it was a warning that the other starks are going to reject Arya too, once they realise she's become a psychotic, mass murdering, face stealing monster. That girl has changed.

On the point of Arya, I'm waiting for her to meet up with the Hound again. There's definitely unfinished business there. He's duty bound to pull her out of the darkness, just as she once reminded him of his humanity.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The show didn't really suggest any warg ability except for Bran and for that wilding warg a few seasons ago. Some speculated he would survive his assassination by warging into Ghost, but it seems it was all the Red Woman to thank for his return.

That's what I assumed, too. There's a chapter in the book told from the perspective of a character called Varamyr Six Skins that implies that when wargs die, they can end up in the body of one of the animals they warg in to. I'm surprised the show didn't go there.

 

[Forever]

I just had a thought... what if Sansa just becomes the queen after all? Nobody's like expecting it. Cercei defeats daenerys and then for a while Cercei is at the top of her evil and then bam littlefinger gets so enraged, he kills cercei hand to hand combat knowing that's the only thing he can be good at. And Sansa just is like "hey, I guess I'm the queen now" (in your best Sansa voice you can imagine)

Tyrion serves as the new hand of the queen. And Sansa just takes one dragon for herself (the others being dead)

Let's see if any of this comes true by the end of season 8 or even 7?

 

[Riva]

I just had a thought... what if Sansa just becomes the queen after all? Nobody's like expecting it. Cercei defeats daenerys and then for a while Cercei is at the top of her evil and then bam littlefinger gets so enraged, he kills cercei hand to hand combat knowing that's the only thing he can be good at. And Sansa just is like "hey, I guess I'm the queen now" (in your best Sansa voice you can imagine)

Tyrion serves as the new hand of the queen. And Sansa just takes one dragon for herself (the others being dead)

Let's see if any of this comes true by the end of season 8 or even 7?

Predictions?

Mine was wrong about Jon Snow. I predicted he would be woken up - after the stabbing incident - by the white walkers in a major plot twist and would become villainous much to the heartbreak of female fans .

Predictions for this season: Despite a few Major victories Cercei would finally lose. Rather than accepting defeat she would command King's Landing to be burnt to the ground by using wildfire. Jamie would try to reason with her, to save all the innocent lives trapped in King's Landing. When he fails he will strangle her. If I am not mistaken it was predicted by the swamp-witch that Cercei would be killed by her younger brother. This could be Jamie instead of Tyrion.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, that was pretty good.

 

[Totenkindly]

"Give me ten men and I'll impregnate the bitch." Wow.

.. I know some people like the faster pace, but I'm just not very emotionally invested. Everything seems to be too much shorthand to be enjoyable. I mean, tonight they just resolved a few other things quickly.... and I feel like a lot of the strategies are stupid, so of course if and when they end up in disaster, it's a "duh, what did you expect?" moment. And the things of import also just got handed out like presents. It's just so damn quick and there's not much weight to things anymore.

Still, I did like the moment at Winterfell with Sansa and another familiar cast member. It's about time.

I am also happy Davos is still around. I always liked him.

Predictions?

Mine was wrong about Jon Snow. I predicted he would be woken up - after the stabbing incident - by the white walkers in a major plot twist and would become villainous much to the heartbreak of female fans .

Predictions for this season: Despite a few Major victories Cercei would finally lose. Rather than accepting defeat she would command King's Landing to be burnt to the ground by using wildfire. Jamie would try to reason with her, to save all the innocent lives trapped in King's Landing. When he fails he will strangle her. If I am not mistaken it was predicted by the swamp-witch that Cercei would be killed by her younger brother. This could be Jamie instead of Tyrion.

Actually that kind of plot twist has already become the Conventional Wisdom if you read any commentaries about Game of Thrones online. It will be more surprising if something else happens. We saw more seeds of it planted tonight.

Anyway, the Red Woman...

basically stated tonight that both she and Varys are going to die in the war before the end of it. Varys didn't seem so happy about that. The Red Woman seems resolute and fine with it -- I think she feels it will be restitution for the burning of Shireen and her other mistakes over time, and if it's what Her Lord wills, then so be it. She seems tired and ready for her role to be finished.

And Yara...

is still badass. Ellaria and her daughter looked scared -- rightfully so -- being marched through King's Landing, but I love Yara. She's all bloody and dirty and messed up, but she never puts her head down and never looks away. Defiant until the end. I feel bad for her, considering what could be coming from PsychoCrazyUncle. Man, that guy was even needling Jaime about how he was going to defile his sister once he became king. What a nut.

I just had a thought... what if Sansa just becomes the queen after all? Nobody's like expecting it. Cercei defeats daenerys and then for a while Cercei is at the top of her evil and then bam littlefinger gets so enraged, he kills cercei hand to hand combat knowing that's the only thing he can be good at. And Sansa just is like "hey, I guess I'm the queen now" (in your best Sansa voice you can imagine)

Tyrion serves as the new hand of the queen. And Sansa just takes one dragon for herself (the others being dead)

Let's see if any of this comes true by the end of season 8 or even 7?

I think Sansa has an important role to play, but I'm not sure that is it. Still...she's becoming quite formidable.

Of course, one way to unite the North and the South is for Dani and Jon to wed at some point... leaving Sansa to rule Winterfell. That is the conventional ending I suppose.

Another would be for Jon and Dani to die saving Westeros, and Tyrion and Sansa rule... no longer a mock marriage.

I don't know. It's not really clear what the ending is. The most the Walkers will get is a statemate if they have legitimate needs; if they are just evil, then they will be pushed back somehow, but it's not clear who will live.

I just think it's the Game of Thrones. if you don't win, you die, like Cersei said so long ago. So it would make sense if the "heroes" of the story had a different philosophy or the winner to not even want the throne. (Those who live by the sword die by it, but a truly worthy leader wouldn't even play the game.) Jon fits in that category, he's the one guy who not only doesn't want the iron throne (well, Tyrion and Jaime and a few others) but he doesn't really even want the title he currently has.

 

[Forever]

In terms of how the show went, it's very quotable: I did like what Tyrion said:

children are not their fathers

I trust an honest man's eyes over everyone's eyes.

I definitely have that philosophy so I felt very comfortable hearing that.

In terms of the show, Jon and Daenerys' meeting was very predictable but that's not bad. This episode felt like the "let's get this out of the way"

a relatively large character meets her demise but ends up having it well for the show. to not die like Maergery or Tommen.

I think the punishment from Cercei was actually nice for me to hear because Myrcella was so innocent from it all. I really do like Cercei and Daenerys both, despite popular opinion from many GoT fans.


Daenerys looks so incredible with her clothes in the soon to be Queen.

The "white dress" could still indicate Sansa to be in a high position. maybe... "queen"? :smirk:

 

[Totenkindly]

...The "white dress" could still indicate Sansa to be in a high position. maybe... "queen"? :smirk:

White dress:

I sure as hell hope that

Bran was alluding to what YOU think... because if he was making her relive the worst moment of her life, even to just say "I sympathize"... well, what a jackass. I'm not sure whether that was supposed to show sympathy, or to tell the viewers "yes, he's lost some of his humanity as the three-eyed raven" or him saying "You felt alone but you weren't, I was there, and I know what happened."

But Sansa really never wants to remember that again, and she even terribly murdered the guy who did it so as to be rid of that memory forever...

 

[Z Buck McFate]

And the things of import also just got handed out like presents. It's just so damn quick and there's not much weight to things anymore.

It seems to me like Finale Syndrome started setting in at the end of last season...(not exactly sure what to spoiler)

with both Sansa and Arya getting major wins (watching Ramsey get torn apart by his own hounds, feeding Frey his own sons before killing him). The injustices to the undeserving have been almost negligible. The Martells... kinda had it coming. While it sucked to see Olenna go - and I am more sad to see her go than I was to see Oberyn go - it was painless, she'd already lost everyone she loved *and* she got to tell Jaime to his face that she was the one who killed Joffrey.

It's still possible that something horrible will happen to Yara (okay, likely), but overall it's felt like Finale Syndrome to me since the moment Sansa watched Ramsey get torn apart. Maybe even since watching Rickon die a relatively simple death, instead of being flayed or tortured or whatnot. (I mean, he was prisoner to Ramsey).

 

[Beorn]

I just think it's the Game of Thrones. if you don't win, you die, like Cersei said so long ago. So it would make sense if the "heroes" of the story had a different philosophy or the winner to not even want the throne. (Those who live by the sword die by it, but a truly worthy leader wouldn't even play the game.) Jon fits in that category, he's the one guy who not only doesn't want the iron throne (well, Tyrion and Jaime and a few others) but he doesn't really even want the title he currently has.

I nominate Samwell Tarley for the Iron Throne.

 

[Forever]

I think Sansa has an important role to play, but I'm not sure that is it. Still...she's becoming quite formidable.

Of course, one way to unite the North and the South is for Dani and Jon to wed at some point... leaving Sansa to rule Winterfell. That is the conventional ending I suppose.

Another would be for Jon and Dani to die saving Westeros, and Tyrion and Sansa rule... no longer a mock marriage.

I don't know. It's not really clear what the ending is. The most the Walkers will get is a statemate if they have legitimate needs; if they are just evil, then they will be pushed back somehow, but it's not clear who will live.

I just think it's the Game of Thrones. if you don't win, you die, like Cersei said so long ago. So it would make sense if the "heroes" of the story had a different philosophy or the winner to not even want the throne. (Those who live by the sword die by it, but a truly worthy leader wouldn't even play the game.) Jon fits in that category, he's the one guy who not only doesn't want the iron throne (well, Tyrion and Jaime and a few others) but he doesn't really even want the title he currently has.

Yes the one thing to note is that the writers *do* make earlier connections to the show even as so far in the 7th season. So watching some past episodes might help to understand some possibilities for the show. While the show has a lot of unexpected deaths, and a bit chaotic at times. It's good to not overdo it and so far I am not complaining. Season 2 on my rewatch (or what I'm rewatching right now) I forgot how brutal it was.. but it also made me realize how innocent season 1 was as a growing show. If you were to infer from the show later on, it'd seem you might predict, "just don't be gullible ok" which in season 2 Jaime Lannister learns to go the dark way to escape unlike Ned did.

It's all so confusing though.. here we have Tyrion believing that the war won't be too difficult although they just lost their Dornish allies and Casterly Rock so quickly. It's a little scary on how over-confident Tyrion is but still too early in the season to really figure out if he's going to make Daenerys win or fail. Daenerys is way too confident in her dragons and has been so since the beginning of the show especially hearing season 2 again, calling her dragons as "her children" or how she sail alone in sea (last recent episode) with just 3 of her dragons.

Episode 4 or 5 might feature Arya again, she's kind of losing a role so I hope they bring something out soon to get us excited about her.

White dress:

I sure as hell hope that

Bran was alluding to what YOU think... because if he was making her relive the worst moment of her life, even to just say "I sympathize"... well, what a jackass. I'm not sure whether that was supposed to show sympathy, or to tell the viewers "yes, he's lost some of his humanity as the three-eyed raven" or him saying "You felt alone but you weren't, I was there, and I know what happened."

But Sansa really never wants to remember that again, and she even terribly murdered the guy who did it so as to be rid of that memory forever...

I really think Bran is talking about the future and not the past. It would be pretty terrible. Ahh Joffrey's end was gross but it was satisfying lol. I still remember I get the biggest relief of Joffrey's expiration in S4. or are you alluding to Tyrion?

 

[Totenkindly]

I mean basically we have watched

three of the seven kingdoms

go down in the space of one episode, in only about 10-15 minutes of air time if you compile the snippets. Whereas an episode before, Cersei was supposedly in big trouble.

*yawn*

It's like, "Oh, well, we want to take the plot elsewhere, let's do that." Not that the remaining scenes are terrible, but it just reminds me of that shit book Wizard War I read in the 80's, where there was some heroic quest and it involved three wizards, and out of the blue about 80% of the way into the story, the head wizard broke his arm by falling down and ended up dying in the space of about two pages so that if you were skim reading you might not even notice it happened. And the whole thing just putters to a close.

If this had been the way of the earlier seasons, I probably wouldn't have even have watched the series, since there is no ongoing emotional investment in what happens. I feel like I am watching one of Lady Crane's parodies of Westeros.

More about various expirations:

Ellaria's punishment was dreadful in the abstract but not nearly as dreadful in the moment in the style we have grow used to, with characters expiring right on camera. I'm kind of surprised Cersei still went for that, as Ellaria watching her daughter die in front of her is bad but it also robs Cersie of WATCHING her watch her daughter die, and that seems remarkable detached and restrained for Cersei. I would think she'd want to wallow in her captive's misery, watching her watch her daughter die and gloating throughout. So in terms of "tit for tat," it sounded reasonable but I just didn't feel it would give CERSEI enough visceral pleasure in the moment to approach it that way.

And when Olenna says this:

"I'd hate to die like your son: clawing at my neck, foam and bile spilling from my mouth, eyes blood-red, skin purple. Must have been horrible for you, as a King's Guard and a father. It was horrible enough for me. A shocking scene, not at all what I intended. You see, I'd never seen the poison work before. Tell Cersei, I want her to know it was me."

I kind of expected Cersei to have figured out Olenna was involved and, NOT wanting to spare Olenna because of what Olenna had done, actually HAD replaced the vial of poison with the same stuff that killed Joffrey. It would have matched the earlier poisoning scene of tit-for-tat.

But we did not get that. I really have trouble believing Cersei would have settled for that peaceful a death for Olenna even not knowing she was involved, because she hated her and especially after Jaime described the alternative deaths that had been planned for her, as Cersei really hated her.

I mean, I just feel like these scenes are expedient and might work in isolation but not in the big picture way as we're used to...

And why did Dani lose all her support in one episode of time? Because she will then have no choice but to join Jon in some way despite him being unwilling to bend the knee, to fight the walkers and work together to defeat Cersei. The characters really are now just in service to the endgame plotline, versus the other way around. Dani has no one left.

I really think Bran is talking about the future and not the past. It would be pretty terrible. Ahh Joffrey's end was gross but it was satisfying lol. I still remember I get the biggest relief of Joffrey's expiration in S4. or are you alluding to Tyrion?

I'm confused. The whole thing is about Ramsay, leading to that awful wedding night scene.

-------------

[side note: It's Ramsay. Some people on the 'net keep spelling it Ramsey for some reason, I guess cuz that's the American way to spell things...]

 

[Totenkindly]

[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION]
The Bran twitter storm:
Bran's comments

[MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]
yet another comment on THAT topic
Jaime and Cercei...