Game of Thrones!

[Ivy]

Yeah, I think she did. I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[Qre:us]

(I thought Mountain was dead but apparently "they can rebuild him.")

And like Cersei asked the "Maester", "Will it weaken him?" And, he gleefully chuckles, that that won't be the issue.

He's coming back, meaner, stronger, and way less human (read: soul-less, cold - and if you can imagine what the Mountain was like to begin with, this is a terrifying thought. Hence, the Hound cannot die until the Mountain is put down, forever.)

I hope he takes the Mountain out With Fire.

Funny you mention that, I had the exact same thought. He's going to take them BOTH out, by fire. Murder-suicide. He will conquer his fear of fire, because it is trumped by his hatred for his brother.

 

[Totenkindly]

I loved their interaction. It was so poignant. The reluctant teacher and the reluctant student finally comes to a head, where the teacher becomes the student, and the student delivers the hard-learned lessons.

Arya taking the Hound's silver coins, as he took from that poor father who wanted the Hound's protection, and the Hound "teaching" Arya, the hard-knocks of life, "Dead men don't need silver." Brilliant!

Arya walking away: (1) He is not her kill anymore, and she begrudgingly likes him, a little bit, (2) She will kill on her own terms, not because someone wants it/begging for it. Control. The Hound is finally left powerless, and Arya gains that power.

Beautiful assessment, and I like the way you referred back to that lesson with the silver. I think that's what they were going for.

In general, the episode titles are well-named and they try (when they do multiple plotline shows) to emphasize a particular angle that resonates in all the different lines.

So the title here "The Children" was overtly mentioned in the Bran plotline, with the little girl throwing fire; but pretty much the entire episode tracks the "children" of the show resolving (or not) their relationships with parental figures.

- Dani and her dragons (and the man who lost his daughter)

- Stannis asking Jon what he would have done, as his father's (Ned's) son. Jon has been growing into a man so much throughout this season and mainly because he's had to make hard scary decisions and then act on them, for the good of everyone he cares about, and so far he's done Ned proud. (I liked Robb; but I think Jon is stronger and more true.)

- All three Lannister kids essentially telling Tywin to screw off, they're going their own way now.

- Arya and the Hound (who was obviously acting in some ways like a surrogate father); and Brienne pulling out the Catelyn card, in a sense acting as an extension of Arya's mother.

Basically all of the kids grew up this week.

The only one we didn't see was Sansa, but she had her moment of growth two episodes ago, as was heavily discussed.

 

[Ivy]

^I just made almost the same point in a Facebook post. GMTA.

I guess I have no choice but to read these damn books now.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not to the best of my recollection. But the circumstances are different in the book so its kind of a mute point. It's just an educated guess of mine, but Arya grew attached to him in the time they spent together.

Well, I mean "ambiguous" in the sense that it was clear that she had grown close to him (we saw that when she tried to treat his wound a little ways back and take care of him), but he was still on her list and she's become somewhat ruthless and pragmatic.

So here, in those moments where she's just looking at him -- there's such a wealth of possibility over what she's feeling and thinking and deciding, and I just found myself wondering what was going to happen.

I thought her decision was beautiful.

Along with the silver thing, though, there was another lesson where she and The Hound finished off the wounded man who wasn't going to survive his gut wound. The Hound killed the man, and quickly. Here, she makes her own decision, even while the odds of the Hound surviving his infection AND getting back to a safe place to be tended and recover seem pretty slim. What lesson did she learn from that encounter? She obviously learned something from the "silver" encounter.

 

[Ivy]

I think what she was doing there (beyond taking the silver for her own needs) was, on some level, attempting to reassure the Hound that she would be okay because he had taught her well and she had absorbed the lessons.

 

[Totenkindly]

Funny you mention that, I had the exact same thought. He's going to take them BOTH out, by fire. Murder-suicide. He will conquer his fear of fire, because it is trumped by his hatred for his brother.

Interesting. It would definitely bring closure and would be a victory in so many ways for the Hound. It was one of the reasons where the fight with Oberyn didn't feel right -- because narratively The Hound and The Mountain should be the ones facing off. it was foreshadowed early as well, when The Hound intervenes to stop the Mountain from killing Loras. These two brothers need to one day settle things, once and for all.

And the fire motif is the most obvious. The Hound not only could beat and stop his brother but would be rising above that scarring incident as a child.

Also, I think my predictions about Dorne are gonna happen, due to the Mountain's confession during combat. It's a political nightmare that Tywin in a sense has been fortunate enough to escape. Westeros would have had to punish the Mountain for his crimes in some way, but the Mountain can now never be recalled to justice per se. Dorne won't be happy about that.

I think what she was doing there (beyond taking the silver for her own needs) was, on some level, attempting to reassure the Hound that she would be okay because he had taught her well and she had absorbed the lessons.

Well, he didn't seem very reassured.

 

[Qre:us]

Beautiful assessment, and I like the way you referred back to that lesson with the silver. I think that's what they were going for.

In general, the episode titles are well-named and they try (when they do multiple plotline shows) to emphasize a particular angle that resonates in all the different lines.

So the title here "The Children" was overtly mentioned in the Bran plotline, with the little girl throwing fire; but pretty much the entire episode tracks the "children" of the show resolving (or not) their relationships with parental figures.

- Dani and her dragons (and the man who lost his daughter)

- Stannis asking Jon what he would have done, as his father's (Ned's) son. Jon has been growing into a man so much throughout this season and mainly because he's had to make hard scary decisions and then act on them, for the good of everyone he cares about, and so far he's done Ned proud. (I liked Robb; but I think Jon is stronger and more true.)

- All three Lannister kids essentially telling Tywin to screw off, they're going their own way now.

- Arya and the Hound (who was obviously acting in some ways like a surrogate father); and Brienne pulling out the Catelyn card, in a sense acting as an extension of Arya's mother.

Basically all of the kids grew up this week.

The only one we didn't see was Sansa, but she had her moment of growth two episodes ago, as was heavily discussed.

Nice!! Really good outline of the relevance of the title: "The Children". I think it's also foreshadowed by the little girl who Bran et al. meet, where she explains that they are called the "children" but that they are older (read: wiser) than any others living. Out of the mouths of babes. All the children have to not only outgrow the shadows of their parents, but come onto their own, their own purpose. Very clearly manifested by all the Stark children.

Aside:

The poor dragons!

The mean one who kills the goat and the girl is still out there. One of the three dragons is rebelling against Danearys, not all of them.

Haha, yeah, the Lannister kids finally growing some backbone and telling Daddy Dearest to fuck-off, was the beginning of the end for Tywin. I will miss him. He was brilliantly evil. I just wish he knew that he had Arya right under his nose, before he died. Just to take his ego down a peg or two.

The only one we didn't see was Sansa, but she had her moment of growth two episodes ago, as was heavily discussed.

I'm really interested to see where they take Sansa. I have a feeling she will go over to the dark side, for good. How delicious will it be? For a Stark to succumb to the dark side?

I have another question: What is the rule of a Trial by Combat if both dies? Is the person whose champion dies still sentenced to death, even if the other side also died? I know that Tyrion was sentenced to death, but I feel like there's a loophole here, which is why Cersei was so adamant to not let the Mountain die.

 

[Totenkindly]

Haha, yeah, the Lannister kids finally growing some backbone and telling Daddy Dearest to fuck-off, was the beginning of the end for Tywin. I will miss him. He was brilliantly evil.

LAWFUL NEUTRAL. Didn't you read the showrunners' joke about that?

I just wish he knew that he had Arya right under his nose, before he died. Just to take his ego down a peg or two.

Oh, I had forgotten about that! Yes, I wanted SO bad for Tywin to realize he had been fooled so horribly ... by a child. That was hilarious.

She fooled the Mountain too.

I'm really interested to see where they take Sansa. I have a feeling she will go over to the dark side, for good. How delicious will it be? For a Stark to succumb to the dark side?

Maybe she's just bathing in the Dark SIde, and at the end once she screws Littlefinger over she'll take a shower and be clean once more.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I kind of wish they had explained more about the Children of the Forest. They should do more with them, because that was too brief.

I liked the design of the cave, though. That was appropriately spooky.

 

[Qre:us]

LAWFUL NEUTRAL. Didn't you read the showrunners' joke about that?

What's the joke? I have been scrambling to watch all the episodes from the beginning to the end, before the season 4's finale. I haven't had the chance to read materials about GoT, yet.

Maybe she's just bathing in the Dark SIde, and at the end once she screws Littlefinger over she'll take a shower and be clean once more.

Oh, she will definitely screw Littlefinger, but as the show shows, if you "play" the game, you cannot remain untouched, you can't go back to blissful ignorance. I don't think Sansa will ever be clean, once she goes to the dark side. You give a part of your goodness, your light, and in its absence, your darkness grows. The underlying theme of the whole show, "What price are you willing to pay, what price do you pay, to play the game of thrones?"

 

[Riva]

She should have killed the Hound. That would have been the nice thing to do.

 

[Totenkindly]

What's the joke? I have been scrambling to watch all the episodes from the beginning to the end, before the season 4's finale. I haven't had the chance to read materials about GoT, yet.

See the end of my spoiler here:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46862&p=2318388&viewfull=1#post2318388

Oh, she will definitely screw Littlefinger, but as the show shows, if you "play" the game, you cannot remain untouched, you can't go back to blissful ignorance. I don't think Sansa will ever be clean, once she goes to the dark side. You give a part of your goodness, your light, and in its absence, your darkness grows. The underlying theme of the whole show, "What price are you willing to pay, what price do you pay, to play the game of thrones?"

You either win or you die.
Sweat and blood and grime is a small price to pay to survive.

I wonder... if and when the Stark daughters finally meet again (if they do) -- will they even recognize each other?

 

[Eluded_One]

She should have killed the Hound. That would have been the nice thing to do.

I believe George Martin intended to leave it ambiguous. He tends to leave certain situations open-ended, in case he needs to adjust the story around.

 

[Beorn]

On the book differences with tywin/Tyrian in this last episode.

I understand that they need to show and not tell on TV, but the change in Tyrion's motivation was disappointing. You get the same result, but in the show Tyrion is still nieve and somewhat petulant even though he's been horribly wronged by his father. Whereas in the books the exact opposite occurs where Tyrion is proven not to be nieve and is in a sense a righteous judge of a really horrific father who wronged him in the absolute worst way possible.

That being said I did like the change with brienne and the hound. Great fight scene and pretty cool to see the show's two deadly women meet.

Big book spoiler yet to be seen in the show... Unfortunately...

wth?

 

[Qre:us]

See the end of my spoiler here:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46862&p=2318388&viewfull=1#post2318388

Oh! A hidden gem. I love reading your thoughts on GoT. Thanks for the link!

I don't really know about D&D, and the categorization of those things. Lawful neutral? But, yes, Tywin wasn't evil, per se. Not like Joffrey. He was strategic and ruthless in carrying out his plan, but the main goal wasn't enjoyment out of delivering cruelty. If that was the side effect, so be it, but he wasn't motivated by that, and the illusion of power that gave. His speech to Tommen (sp? - Joffrey's baby brother, current king), about what makes a good King was very insightful with regards to his psyche. As well, the way he treated Arya. It was kind of wonderful to see. He respected her chutzpah and her cleverness.

I am unsure about when to add spoiler tags. If it has aired or if it is speculation, why is there a need for a spoiler tag?

Anyway:

- Jaime hugging and kissing his baby brother. Loved it. I really like Jaime. I wish he could escape Cersei's claws, and discover a love of equals with Brienne.
- Bran and Hodor. I'm very uneasy about Bran's power over Hodor. It's inherently not right, although, sometimes, it is a make-or-break situation and the end justifies the means. But when he had Hodor kill that man. Hodor's horror at what he'd done. I felt awful for Hodor. Hodor! And very disappointed in Bran.
- Ah Varys, do you think he's making with way to Danerys?
- I don't get why Danerys freed the slaves, and when the slave came to her to tell him that he's lost his purpose, and if he could be allowed to sell himself again, back to his master, she allowed it? Why not create a system where he doesn't sell HIMSELF, but sells his skills, you know, paid work. It's not an either/or. I find a lot of Danerys' scenes awfully boring to watch.
- Stannis is another snoozefest. He and his Fire Queen are a drag to watch.
- A lot of the key players have left King's Landing. I wonder if the next season(s) will all take place in places other than King's Landing, before everyone returns once again, for the rightful one(s) to claim the throne.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

On the book differences with tywin/Tyrian in this last episode.

I understand that they need to show and not tell on TV, but the change in Tyrion's motivation was disappointing. You get the same result, but in the show Tyrion is still nieve and somewhat petulant even though he's been horribly wronged by his father. Whereas in the books the exact opposite occurs where Tyrion is proven not to be nieve and is in a sense a righteous judge of a really horrific father who wronged him in the absolute worst way possible.

That being said I did like the change with brienne and the hound. Great fight scene and pretty cool to see the show's two deadly women meet.

Big book spoiler yet to be seen in the show... Unfortunately...

wth?

I don't mind that. Presumably, we don't get him complaining about "Where do whores go?" for a whole season. I like Tyrion, but I actually found his chapters the least interesting (with the exception of one character who is probably going to be removed entirely from the series) in ADWD (which is actually my second favorite book in the series... I found the first half of ASOS to be slow, after the awesomeness of ACOK).

I think they've done wonderful things in improving Brienne's quest for the Stark daughters, a plot that I thought dragged for most of the books.

They've cut out too much cool stuff from Bran's chapters, though. Up until last night, the most interesting thing on the show was an argument about skinning a rabbit.

 

[ceecee]

Did anyone else watch the fight between The Hound and Brienne and feel rather conflicted about who you wanted to win?

Oh yes. It wasn't in the books but I am fine with the books only being the guide to the show, however, of the two I knew it would be the Hound who dies. And I knew Arya would never put him out of his misery either. He isn't on her list but she isn't kind either. She never was.

 

[Riva]

I believe George Martin intended to leave it ambiguous. He tends to leave certain situations open-ended, in case he needs to adjust the story around.

Oh yeah. Read into it and there seems to be an open end for him.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think we should organize a protest over the best character shunned from the season finale:

Damn them!

PS. I meant Ser Pounce.

I don't really know about D&D, and the categorization of those things. Lawful neutral? But, yes, Tywin wasn't evil, per se. Not like Joffrey. He was strategic and ruthless in carrying out his plan, but the main goal wasn't enjoyment out of delivering cruelty. If that was the side effect, so be it, but he wasn't motivated by that, and the illusion of power that gave. His speech to Tommen (sp? - Joffrey's baby brother, current king), about what makes a good King was very insightful with regards to his psyche. As well, the way he treated Arya. It was kind of wonderful to see. He respected her chutzpah and her cleverness.

Yes, I see Tywin is more organized than "evil" myself. He was capable of good things if it made sense. But he didn't seem beholden to good or bad per as a way to live, he was more interested in the structure, organization, planning, hierarchy, etc. -- the Order of things.

I am unsure about when to add spoiler tags. If it has aired or if it is speculation, why is there a need for a spoiler tag?

I usually give it about 24 hours, then I figure it's fair game.

Anyway:

- Bran and Hodor. I'm very uneasy about Bran's power over Hodor. It's inherently not right, although, sometimes, it is a make-or-break situation and the end justifies the means. But when he had Hodor kill that man. Hodor's horror at what he'd done. I felt awful for Hodor. Hodor! And very disappointed in Bran.

Yeah, in the past I felt like possessing Hodor was a violation. Here he actually saved Hodor's life and all of their lives, so it didn't feel "as wrong" to me, but I wonder if at some point he won't think twice about it. It'll be interesting to see.

- Ah Varys, do you think he's making with way to Danerys?

Are they going east? Maybe.
I bet they run into Jorah, who is now a free agent.

- I don't get why Danerys freed the slaves, and when the slave came to her to tell him that he's lost his purpose, and if he could be allowed to sell himself again, back to his master, she allowed it? Why not create a system where he doesn't sell HIMSELF, but sells his skills, you know, paid work. It's not an either/or. I find a lot of Danerys' scenes awfully boring to watch.

It's not my favorite arc in the series at this point.
I don't think she's smart enough to just create a system off the cuff. She's an idealist, she focused on the way things SHOULD be versus being pragmatic about what CAN be done to make a flawed system better. Maybe she'll get better on that, the more she is challenged.

- Stannis is another snoozefest. He and his Fire Queen are a drag to watch.

Yeah, I don't even get what Davos is still there. That guy deserves a better king.

- A lot of the key players have left King's Landing. I wonder if the next season(s) will all take place in places other than King's Landing, before everyone returns once again, for the rightful one(s) to claim the throne.

I dunno, but the board really got upended here!