Game of Thrones!

[Cellmold]

We're seeing problems with Good people who are noble but not cunning, and we're seeing problems with Good people who are passionate but too headstrong. Good won't triumph just because it's good, it'll be because it manages to be as wise as a serpent, as peaceful as a dove, as resilient as steel, as flexible as the wind.

Right and I like that about the series, it just appeared repetitive and cheap in this instance. My point about helmets was a joke.

I suppose I'm just not that good at explaining my points.

Although shattering expectations is always an interesting endeavour and one which can bring some interesting revelations when it's pitched right, of course this is all personal perspective. For that reason alone I didn't mind the death of Flanders or the wubbly wedding.

A lot of yawners here, methinks.

Actually I'm very low on the empathy test, I rarely if ever yawn when others do.

 

[Totenkindly]

I bought the Season 1 GoT bluray pack yesterday, which is rather nice since I saw all the episodes originally on lower-quality TV show streaming sites. The images were now very crisp and clear on my 55" TV.

In the pack of goodies, they had a total of 15 short commercial-style snippets for various characters, with the actors explaining the character both in costume and out. I've only watched about 5-6 of them, but I found it interesting to hear from the actors themselves who they thought their characters were:

- Lena Headey actually had a decent sense of Cersei, although I think she credits her with too much intelligence as played. (She seems more like a snake that reacts to any nearby threat, versus true cunning that can bide its time.) She thought that Tyrion and Cersei had the most in common due to the intelligence.

- Peter Dinklage's American voice cracks me up. His voice was far more American and less naturally deep/rich than I imagined; he does a good job at changing his voice at need. Another amusing voice shift: Jason Mamoa AKA Drogo... his normal voice is in the middle pitch-wise and he's kind of amused and easy-going rather than brooding and intimidating.

- Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had an interesting accent -- he's Danish, and I could hear a different inflection in his English than the old English style. He also made a cogent note that Jaime's really not interested in playing the Game of Thrones, which is very true... he's taken more of a "side" position on the whole matter but has no desire to be the Hand, no desire to be in charge of anything. He likes his freedom to respond.

Watching the first episode again and much of the second (S1E1-S1E2), they were far more interesting now that I totally know who the characters are.

- When Cersei tells Catelyn about her first baby dying, it's interesting for two reasons. One is that the boy sound like a rightful Baratheon heir ("he looked just like Robert"). The other is that Cersei manages to gain a lot of sympathy with this seemingly heartfelt story -- is she really so bad? Is she regretting what she did? -- but then a Lannister tries to take Bran's life anyway. (The CW is that it was likely Joffrey trying to prove himself to dear old dad. And Baelish takes advantage of that to create some chaos regarding Tyrion.)

- Ned promises to tell Jon who his mother was. He never gets to, we know now. It seems possible that the mysterious Wylla was his mother, but I'm not sure if this is ever validated in the book or whether it was someone else. We just know Ned rode home with a baby boy, that Catelyn hated him because he was a reminder of Ned's infidelity, and that Ned still viewed Jon as his son and a Stark regardless. Was Wylla his mother? Or someone else? The claim is made that Jon resembles Ned at his youth more than any of his non-bastard children... how odd.

- Even early on, Tyrion is bitch-slapping Joffrey, sending him crying to mother. Hilarious. But he pays for it later, as the animosity grows and Joffrey rises to power.

- Lysa sends the letter to Ned about John's being murdered and flees back to the Ayrie. This helps convince Ned to be Hand, to protect his friend Robert. Later on, of course, we discover that Lysa murdered her own husband and sent the deceptive note at Baelish's request... Baelish wanted Ned in the capital.

- Robb looks so young. So does Bran.

- Bran was always a good explorer and climber, but sucked at combat skills. Arya on the other hand was far more motivated and talented.

- The dead stag (sign of house Baratheon) and dead wolf (sign of house Stark), having apparently fought each other... nice foreshadowing.

- I forgot what a jerk Viserys was: "We go home with an army. With Khal Drogo's army. I would let his whole tribe fuck you - all forty thousand men - and their horses too if that's what it took," said to younger sister Daenyres, who is already feeling dehumanized.

- Foreshadowing with the myth about the dragons breaking out of their shells when brought near the sun -- just like the eggs eventually burst when placed in the heat of the funeral pyre.

- Jon encourages Arya to name her sword. Later, the Hound (?) notes that people who name swords are cunts. We also see the Hound's nifty dog-helm in episode 1.

- Sansa begs to go to the capital -- "It's all I've ever ever wanted!" she insists to mom, while making googly eyes at Joffrey. Oh, how quickly times change....

- Ned insists to his children that since he is passing the sentence [on the deserter], he must be the one to carry it out. To him, this is a mark of honor and responsibility. Note how the events of Episode 9 contrast with this, in terms of who commands the sword vs wields it to do the dirty work.

 

[Totenkindly]

Also, a thought about Jon's parentage (potential huge spoilers if I'm right):

I am getting a weird but distinct gut feeling, after mulling over this and how she kind of "looms" behind everything, that (despite whatever has been said so far) Lyanna is Jon's mother.

And I don't think Ned would have had an affair with his own sister -- he's not a Lannister *cough* -- but it would explain why Jon physically resembles Ned and why Ned takes such care of him. Ned loved his sister deeply.

I know Ned is honorable; did he really have an affair, or did he lie in order to protect Lyanna's child? We do see him lie at the very end too, to protect his children, admitting to being a traitor when he was not. The precedent is there. And it would make sense then why Ned never shares anything about it with anyone, it's the perfect ruse in a sense. No one will suspect that Jon was his sister's son. And it would explain Ned's line: "There's great honor in serving the Night's Watch. The Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years, and you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood." He never says Jon is his son, he just tells him "you have my blood" and that he is a Stark. And he plans to tell him after Jon joins the Night's Watch and thus beyond the reach of law or whatever else.

... now, why would he lie to protect Lyanna? If Robert had fathered Jon, then Ned would not have to protect him. No, Jon's father must be someone who, if people knew who Jon's father was, then Jon would be in danger.

Hmmm....




EDIT: Oh good gravy. Now looking back through the history, I remember that Lyanna died after she was kidnapped by ...Rhaegar Targaryen. What if something (willing or unwilling?) happened there?

If it was clear that Jon was Rhaegar's son, Robert would have likely killed the baby. But since Jon is Ned's nephew, it would make a lot of sense for him to lie and bear the shame/anger from Catelyn to raise Jon as his own son, to cloak his identity and thus protect him from Robert and others who might hurt, exile, or execute him.

I could see Ned doing this -- it fits with his sense of nobility and his love for his family -- and it would fit that Ned would not have betrayed his wife, being noble-minded. No wonder he's so uncomfortable about discussing his "betrayal of Catelyn" when Robert presses him. And how difficult it must be for him when Catelyn rages at him for his betrayal and/or abuses Jon, yet Ned cannot tell her -- he remains very stoic. Because he can say nothing without putting Jon at risk.

He really did love Catelyn, more than she knew.

Anyway... those are my thoughts.

 

[Ivy]

Re: your spoiler on Jon, those are the exact thoughts Noah told me when we first started watching. And he's usually unwilling to spoil ANYTHING from the books for me. So I don't think it has been cleared up in the books yet.

 

[Nicodemus]

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION], you theory about Jon is the most widely accepted one among book readers. I, too, believe it to be so.

By the way: There is still someone alive who knows the truth. His children are currently on a journey through the North with Bran.

 

[Totenkindly]

Thanks [MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] for giving some validity to this.

I just spent some time reading through the one character's history page on the AGOIAF website and I feel 85-90% confident on this... and the other 10-15% I have no idea who else it could feasibly be. Details like this:

- Robert is still pining away for Lyanna almost twenty years after her death, but it's like that he never really understood Lyanna and that she wasn't enamoured by him; we discover that Lyanna is not happy with the betrothal because she believes from the start that Robert will sleep around.

- Lyanna protects Howland Reed from bullies, inspiring his loyalty.

- At their first meeting, Rhaegar Targaryen performs a song so beautiful that she weeps...not something that Lyanna is known for.

- Rhaegar wins the tournament and instead of honoring his wife Elia, he presents his gift to Lyanna. (Poor Elia. She seems to have fared poorly in so many ways. ) Rhaegar seemed very unhappy in that marriage.

- Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna, but in contrast to the "official story" of Rhaegar raping Lyanna, Barristan Selmy (a noble man) is convinced he actually loved her.

- The war stemming from this incident + the murder of Ned's father and brother by the Mad King lasts about a year -- long enough for a pregnancy to take hold and complete.

- Robert eventually slays Rhaegar near the end of that war but is too wounded to pursue the army, so he entrusts that to Ned.

- After witnessing the fall of King's Landing, Ned eventually rides to the Tower of Joy in Dorner to free his sister. Only he and Howland Reed survive the battle with the last of the Kingsguard. Remember, Howland seems very indebted and loyal to the Starks and could be trusted here as much as a man could be trusted.

- Ned finds Lyanna dying from sickness/fever...or possibly a horrific childbirth? Not clear.

- Lyanna extracted a dying promise from Ned, and he agrees.

The assumption I am making at this point is that Ned promised Lyanna that he would care for her newborn son as if he were his own.

That solution seems to fit in SO many ways.

But it hurts to see Ned's and Catelyn's goodbyes in S1E2. Really... Ned loved her so much, and she didn't know the depth of it.

And yeah, Nico -- I couldn't figure out who those kids were when they showed up originally because the name meant nothing to me. Now the connection between the families makes a lot more sense.


Also, I find one of Ned's attitudes interesting:

He seems to have mixed feelings about the Targaryens.

- He has only loathing for Jaime for killing the Mad King, despite what they did to Ned's dad and brother.

- He tries to dissuade Robert in S1E2 from obsessing too much about Daenyres marrying Drogo and their potential "threat." Not that he's for the Targaryens coming back, but he seems to not want to have too much hate building up at the Targaryens. RObert of course would be happy to see them all butchered.

- He doesn't want Daenyres assassinated.

Some of this could be part of his "honor" but I wonder if the fact that Jon is (possibly) half-Stark and half-Targaryen is what is driving his ambivalence here. He can't foster the hatred towards the Targaryens without potentially hurting someone he loves, his sister's son.

 

[tinkerbell]

ewe not at all sure about the Jon's theory,

If Ned is the only one who saw her die who's to say she is dead at all on not Wylla hidden from the war chaos. Aria has been told of Wylla as has someone else, who escapes me, but obviously Bran may catch site through time travel.

Personally I think Jon's month was wildling of origin and possibly has some richer connection with "the others", we have still to get Sam's view on the Others,

Right now I'm far more interested in the came of twos, why there is some sequencing around twos. Both senior men in the stark household are dead, and their sword is melted to create two swords for Lannister, the two Clagaene bros, one has to wonder if there is some significance in some of the couplign and bringing people back from the dead.

finally in the series at the end of series 3 - Tyrion, and Sansa share a joke about sheep shifting, basically sewing dung into a matter and letting it smell. The book goes to great lengths on Tywin's foul smell while he has his wake - is this a sign the couple will get together. I have a view that Sansa will lean that Tyrion is a man cut from the same cloth as her father and that the dwarf ends up with the hotty is a nice twist.

 

[Totenkindly]

Just watched S4E9. I'm not a big fan of the Wall / Jon Snow storyline (it's one of my least favorites, despite liking Jon as a character), but at least tonight had some zing to it. I'm also a fan of Neil Marshall, from his movies "Dog Soldiers" and "The Descent" (the latter of which being a true fave of mine)... it was good to see him doing another episode of GoT. I felt like this was stronger than Blackwater -- at least, it felt larger and more epic.

I was a little worried when the first third of the episode had lines like this in it:

Sam: "Where you go, I go; we'll never be apart again."

*they kiss*
Gilly: "Promise me you won't die."
Sam: "I promise you I won't die."

Unbelievably, both are still alive and no worse for wear. (and I used to hate Sam, but he's grown on me a little -- call me sentimental, but I needed a little bit of love after last week... except on this show, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.)

But we lost a lot of secondary cast tonight -- most of Jon's little group.
And Ygritte.

That was rather sad. It looked like she wasn't going to shoot him (especially based on their conversation after), and then she got taken down by the young boy, who was doing what he had been told to do and, I suppose, owed it to Ygrette after she killed his dad and helped wipe out his entire village two episodes ago or something. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Alas, no potential Stark Targaryen wilding ginger babies. Also, again, with GoT's reputation, that long shot of him cradling Ygritte while the battle was raging led me to half-expect someone would cut him down while he was just sitting there.... thank you, GoT, for not just pissing on what little bit of hope remains after last week's debacle.

The mammoth and the two giants were pretty badass, although i think for me the most stunning moment was the giant archer who took that one guy with an arrow the size of a ballista bolt and sent him flying like a missile down the other side of the wall. And for our heroes, the most stunning moment (aside from Jon busting Styr a cap with that smithy hammer) was the release of the large scythe that unexpectedly swept everyone off the wall -- or, um, most of everyone.

Thorne redeemed himself and fought bravely and well, while Slynt proved he had no character. I don't like Thorne much, but here I was rooting for him the whole way. He might be an asshole, but he admitted to Jon he was right about the tunnel and also never flinched in the fighting. He was also quite an excellent fighter.

A great panning shot during the fight down below, sweeping from one element of the crowd to the next.... not quite the 6 minute track in True Detective but rather nice. and I wasn't expecting it, so it was kind of a treat.

And finally, okay -- what's up with Jon's endgame here? Like, dude, seriously? I'm not sure what he's hoping for, and he's apparently weaponless (?) now too because he left Mormant's sword behind? In this story, it's hard to tell whether the method to his madness will pay off or whether he'll die as horribly as Sam noted. Hard to tell how any of that will work out.

And yes, the entire episode is at the Wall. No cuts to other plotlines this week.

 

[Haven]

I'm about to watch episode 9 and I only have one question:

(book spoiler)

DOES HE SHIT HIMSELF????

 

[Haven]

DAMN IT

 

[Totenkindly]

^^ I didn't check his pants.

However, I have my suspicions.

 

[Riva]

If the theory about Jon is true, - which is at this point a little 'too' obvious to be true - I believe theory about Tyrion is also probably true since those two along with Daenerys are/become the three main characters - I've heard - in the series, which practically makes the series/books about the three descendants of the Mad king.

If the author knew where the series was going from the beginning he would have named it the A story of three mad children.

 

[Cellmold]

Jon Snow explaining sex to Sam Tarly.

FINALLY! A scene I can really get into, like it's a whole other person...

 

[Totenkindly]

[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]:

Here's an older interview I found interesting:
GAME OF THRONES Season 3 and Season 4 News from David Benioff and George R.R. Martin

It also has a brief mention of the question Martin asked the showrunners while they were pitching him the series and how that played out.

DAN WEISS: He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

But a different article says this:

Martin has yet to reveal the truth on the page, but on Tuesday night’s episode of The Writers’ Room screenwriters David Benioff and D.B. Weiss admitted he had confessed it to them.

The pair described having a five-hour meeting with Martin to pitch their idea to adapt the books as a TV series, rather than feature films.

“At the very end of it he said ‘So who is Jon Snow’s real mother?’ – it was a test question,” Benioff told host, US screenwriter and actor Jim Rash.

“We had talked about it amongst ourselves before, and we had an educated guess, which turned out to be right, which is why we’re sitting here,” Weiss said.

“I’m sure he had met other people who had wanted to work on it, studios at least, who hadn’t really read the books, they’d read the cover,” Benioff said.

“I’d be floored if they’d cracked it,” Nash replied.

Martin, who is writing the sixth of the planned seven-book series, has yet to reveal the truth of Jon Snow’s origins on the page, although many fans believe certain facts in earlier novels point to one likely candidate.

So it's a little unclear whether they guessed correctly or not, but at least Martin was convinced that they were invested enough in the series to do the books justice.

From a writer's POV, if I were creating a normal story, what I've suggested earlier is the typical way I'd lay the foundation of such a revelation. It's a sensible way to approach the revelation. However, Martin is so well-known for setting up and then destroying expectations that I cannot really say for sure whether he'll throw a wrench into the works. (For example, he could just say, "Well, actually Ned did cheat, he's human like everyone else; and Jon's mother was just a no-name wench who had too many mouths to feed.")
[MENTION=15392]AffirmitiveAnxiety[/MENTION]: I loved that conversation.
Sam had a number of good ones last night (including the one with Pyp).

 

[Cellmold]

[MENTION=6164]
[MENTION=15392]AffirmitiveAnxiety[/MENTION]: I loved that conversation.
Sam had a number of good ones last night (including the one with Pyp).

Oh yeah, Sam really had some nice scenes in this one.

The one with Ollie was also a good moment, however brief.

Aww the last time Jon will know nothin.

 

[johnnyyukon]

I was a little worried when the first third of the episode had lines like this in it:

Sam: "Where you go, I go; we'll never be apart again."

*they kiss*
Gilly: "Promise me you won't die."
Sam: "I promise you I won't die."

Unbelievably, both are still alive and no worse for wear. (and I used to hate Sam, but he's grown on me a little -- call me sentimental, but I needed a little bit of love after last week... except on this show, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.)

But we lost a lot of secondary cast tonight -- most of Jon's little group.
And Ygritte.

That was rather sad. It looked like she wasn't going to shoot him (especially based on their conversation after), and then she got taken down by the young boy, who was doing what he had been told to do and, I suppose, owed it to Ygrette after she killed his dad and helped wipe out his entire village two episodes ago or something. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Alas, no potential Stark Targaryen wilding ginger babies. Also, again, with GoT's reputation, that long shot of him cradling Ygritte while the battle was raging led me to half-expect someone would cut him down while he was just sitting there.... thank you, GoT, for not just pissing on what little bit of hope remains after last week's debacle.

The mammoth and the two giants were pretty badass, although i think for me the most stunning moment was the giant archer who took that one guy with an arrow the size of a ballista bolt and sent him flying like a missile down the other side of the wall. And for our heroes, the most stunning moment (aside from Jon busting Styr a cap with that smithy hammer) was the release of the large scythe that unexpectedly swept everyone off the wall -- or, um, most of everyone.

Thorne redeemed himself and fought bravely and well, while Slynt proved he had no character. I don't like Thorne much, but here I was rooting for him the whole way. He might be an asshole, but he admitted to Jon he was right about the tunnel and also never flinched in the fighting. He was also quite an excellent fighter.

A great panning shot during the fight down below, sweeping from one element of the crowd to the next.... not quite the 6 minute track in True Detective but rather nice. and I wasn't expecting it, so it was kind of a treat.

And finally, okay -- what's up with Jon's endgame here? Like, dude, seriously? I'm not sure what he's hoping for, and he's apparently weaponless (?) now too because he left Mormant's sword behind? In this story, it's hard to tell whether the method to his madness will pay off or whether he'll die as horribly as Sam noted. Hard to tell how any of that will work out.

And yes, the entire episode is at the Wall. No cuts to other plotlines this week.

I agree with all that. WAAYYY better than the Blackwater battle, which, imo, was very poorly done.

Giants, very badass. Excellent CGI. Gigantic sweeping sythe? Didn't see that one coming. Wicked. That was right on target, leaving a few severed hands stuck in the ice.

Pretty hard to make an action episode on a series that is mostly character, dialogue driven. Good jerb, H-Bo.



Here's that scene with the missile arrow that was epic, wouldn't surprise me if it was taken down soon though:

 

[Totenkindly]

^^ Yeah, I'm pretty sure my jaw hit the floor when I saw that.

Only the mammoth was 100% CGI; the giants were actually huge actors green-screened and increased in size.

 

[Totenkindly]

here's a guy who does prosthetics work on GoT. Spoilers up to end of Season 3.
http://io9.com/game-of-thrones-gag-inducing-prosthetics-are-amazing-1588651613

The guy's instagram feed is here:
Instagram

 

[Cellmold]

here's a guy who does prosthetics work on GoT. Spoilers up to end of Season 3.
http://io9.com/game-of-thrones-gag-inducing-prosthetics-are-amazing-1588651613

The guy's instagram feed is here:
Instagram

Nice find.

 

[Daenera]

lol mini boss fight