Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

"Well, here we are... back in the box again!"~ Tyrion and Varys, haha. I really like Varys. I'm glad we're finally getting to hear what he REALLY thought for all those seasons.

Cersei, man. Cersie has just not changed. I understand her better, but she's so different than me, and so negative and caustic and paranoid and suspicious and vengeful and... well. I just don't really like her. Yet she serves a purpose in the dynamics.

I'm glad to see that Bronn is back, and I'm glad that Arya *finally* has something going for her.

So, what should Danerys have done? Is there a right choice she could have made?

I don't know. I understand her dilemma -- I've experienced it (on far lesser levels, of course, but still consternating).

You either adhere to the law you're setting down... or you adjust in the moment to try to negotiate a pathway. I guess the question is, could she have given the crowd what they wanted in a way that did not seem as a compromise of her own values or made her look weak? Daenerys still thinks in terms of absolute ethics, as if there is a moral code that exists outside of her; but the reality is that she actually is the moral code (and thus has some flex room). She is the mother to these people. What could she have done in a way that would allow her to remain their mother?

And what are your thoughts about Doran Martell? Probably not enough information for most of you, but in the book he came off like an INTP. I thought that scene was really interesting, for some reason.

I liked him. I don't know he came off in the book, but yes I could identify with his reasoning and his approach. He obviously loved his brother and was very aware of everyone and who they were (relationally), but isn't letting his own grief rule his emotions and feels the need to be as fair as possible... including not abusing the innocent regardless. Great scene... and I'm happy to see him again, I haven't seen Saddig really, since I watched Deep Space Nine so many years back. I like seeing him outside of that role. Of course he's much older now.

What do you think about the stuff concerning Sansa?

Mixed feelings. I think she is picking the evil she knows, which she established last season. Brienne is an unknown quantity. I love Brienne, but I don't operate like her. She is an idealist and has a hard time adjusting to changes in a situation; her values are absolute, versus being able to adjust to fit the parameters of the situation. IOW, she's not very flexible.

Then again, she's still badass with a sword, and we see again what Valerian steel can do -- she shattered that one blade like it was nothing.

My favorite part of last night's episode, though, was Sam roasting Janos Slynt. That was perfect.

That was beautiful. I'm not that fond of Sam (although he means well), but there he actually managed to eloquently cut someone down in a way that didn't seem repulsive... and he stuck up for his friend in the process. It was a beautiful bit of a speech there.

The whole deal with Jon Snow, too -- getting the offer from Stannis. It had never crossed my mind, and the possibilities took my breath away. (Damn, is there SOMETHING good that can happen here, that GRRM might NOT tear away from us???) Yet I can't fault Jon's decision either, he's totally right. It just hurt for something like that to come across the table and to know it probably can't be... or at least not right now.

 

[Totenkindly]

"Best be careful, you might accidentally consume some solid food." ~ Varys

“How many dwarves are there in the world? Is Cersei going to kill them all?” ~ Tyrion
[but apparently Cersie is making a true go at it]

Arya's list is getting shorter; she needs to step up her game before everyone else gets her targets first.

---

Also, Dani's "White Savior" Complex explored:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/04/game-of-thrones-critique-white-savior

Your mileage may vary on the most controversial scene from Game of Thrones (though most would probably pick that Jaime/Cersei exchange from Season 4). But when it comes to images, no single Game of Thrones shot has launched quite as many think pieces as this closing moment from the Season 3 finale “Mhysa.” Daenerys Targaryen –– that platinum blonde Mother of Dragons –– frees the slaves of Yunkai and to the chants of “mhysa, mhysa, mhysa” (mother in Ghiscari) is raised on their shoulders and celebrated for being the liberator of their city. The camera zooms out as Dany, a lone spot of white-blonde, stands out in a sea of brown hands reaching out to touch her, praise her, exalt her...

Well, now it looks like the crows could be coming home to roost.

Imagine if Avatar had ended shortly after Home Tree falls, or the Indian tribe that took in Dunbar ends up getting wiped out by white soliders because of Dunbar's messing around in their affairs. White savior? No, just someone who trashed the native culture's infrastructure for "something better" or otherwise brings a pox down on the people, and things get worse instead of better.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"Well, here we are... back in the box again!"~ Tyrion and Varys, haha. I really like Varys. I'm glad we're finally getting to hear what he REALLY thought for all those seasons.

From one box to another!

That's something I really like about books 4 and 5. We finally get information about what Littlefinger and Varys might actually be up to.

Cersei, man. Cersie has just not changed. I understand her better, but she's so different than me, and so negative and caustic and paranoid and suspicious and vengeful and... well. I just don't really like her. Yet she serves a purpose in the dynamics.

Cersei is certainly not a likeable person. I'm very interested in Qyburn, though. He looks kind of like Palpatine in the Star Wars prequels, don't you think?

I'm glad to see that Bronn is back, and I'm glad that Arya *finally* has something going for her.

Yes, I like that addition. Obviously, they just threw that in because they knew people wanted to see more of him. I'm not complaining. He's a blackhearted rogue, and I like that about him. That scene, by the way, had a definite "I'm getting too old for this shit" vibe.

You either adhere to the law you're setting down... or you adjust in the moment to try to negotiate a pathway. I guess the question is, could she have given the crowd what they wanted in a way that did not seem as a compromise of her own values or made her look weak? Daenerys still thinks in terms of absolute ethics, as if there is a moral code that exists outside of her; but the reality is that she actually is the moral code (and thus has some flex room). She is the mother to these people. What could she have done in a way that would allow her to remain their mother?

I suppose there were other methods available for handling that situation. Perhaps the crowd might have been more amenable to those. There were multiple tools available to her, and she used the bluntest instrument. Perhaps a scalpel could have sufficed.

I liked him. I don't know he came off in the book, but yes I could identify with his reasoning and his approach. He obviously loved his brother and was very aware of everyone and who they were (relationally), but isn't letting his own grief rule his emotions and feels the need to be as fair as possible... including not abusing the innocent regardless. Great scene... and I'm happy to see him again, I haven't seen Saddig really, since I watched Deep Space Nine so many years back. I like seeing him outside of that role. Of course he's much older now.

The history of House Martell is sort of like the history of House Stark, in that there are things that set it apart from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. It's interesting, because both the North and the far South of Westeros maintain unique traditions and tendencies, distinct from the Andal culture of the rest of Westeros.

If you want more info, (I'm not sure how much of this they will cover on the show) you can go here and click on the link, and select the history portion, which is spoiler free:

House Martell

Mixed feelings. I think she is picking the evil she knows, which she established last season. Brienne is an unknown quantity. I love Brienne, but I don't operate like her. She is an idealist and has a hard time adjusting to changes in a situation; her values are absolute, versus being able to adjust to fit the parameters of the situation. IOW, she's not very flexible.

Honestly, my response in that situation would probably be like Podrick's. At any rate, this is a big deviation from the books (superior, IMO) and I'm interested to see how this plays out.

That was beautiful. I'm not that fond of Sam (although he means well), but there he actually managed to eloquently cut someone down in a way that didn't seem repulsive... and he stuck up for his friend in the process. It was a beautiful bit of a speech there.

He's kind of a bit paternalistic in the way he treats Gilly, isn't he? Honestly, I think the healthiest relationship on the show was probably Jon and Ygritte. Too bad that didn't last.

The whole deal with Jon Snow, too -- getting the offer from Stannis. It had never crossed my mind, and the possibilities took my breath away. (Damn, is there SOMETHING good that can happen here, that GRRM might NOT tear away from us???) Yet I can't fault Jon's decision either, he's totally right. It just hurt for something like that to come across the table and to know it probably can't be... or at least not right now.

I'm pulling for Jon here.

 

[Dr Mobius]

I did actually notice this aspect of it, and I was surprised that few people had made that criticism. I thought it was interesting that there were more criticisms of the Season 3 finale, when the Dothraki seemed like a bigger deal to me. This is frequently how I feel about these accusations; to me it looks like people are constantly pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm not fully qualified to judge such things, but the Dothraki jumped out at me, and went uncriticized by many.

But, for people who are criticizing this trope, I suggest that they be patient. This storyline isn't done with yet. I guess I've encountered enough people who make criticisms of art work and media as being racist who frequently take things out of context and cherry-pick stuff to make their point that I've become skeptical to such claims.

You're alluding to Daenerys “Deus Ex Machina” Targaryen, and the Unsullied/Slaves? Yeah I think that is more, and I'm going to get crucified for saying it......... bad writing. Well inconsistent would be more accurate GRRM wants his shades of grey; but at the same time he wants the good guys to win in the end. She's the pure saviour, which is why everything has to land at her feet. Hell she's got the only army that is guaranteed not to rape and loot Westeros. In much the same way that Jon Snow has to be a man child who screws up and whines a lot.

Actually I suppose there is an element of sexism to that dynamic. Jon has to prove he is a man; by going on a quest, having sex, killing, and so on. Whilst Daenerys is to avoid contamination. Both are a bit ridiculous.

I'll engage in an honest, good-faith argument about stereotyping any day. If it's tumblr-style nonsense about just trying to make me feel guilty, I'm not interested in that. What I am interested in getting out of the topic is an intellectual understanding of the issue in question.

Tumblr is only good for porn of the food, clothing, and actual porn variety. It's format as far as I have seen doesn't lend itself to more.

 

[Totenkindly]

You're alluding to Daenerys “Deus Ex Machina” Targaryen, and the Unsullied/Slaves? Yeah I think that is more, and I'm going to get crucified for saying it......... bad writing. Well inconsistent would be more accurate GRRM wants his shades of grey; but at the same time he wants the good guys to win in the end. She's the pure saviour, which is why everything has to land at her feet. Hell she's got the only army that is guaranteed not to rape and loot Westeros. In much the same way that Jon Snow has to be a man child who screws up and whines a lot.

Actually I suppose there is an element of sexism to that dynamic. Jon has to prove he is a man; by going on a quest, having sex, killing, and so on. Whilst Daenerys is to avoid contamination. Both are a bit ridiculous.

Good points, and with half the board cleared I've been wondering about this since GRRM has tried to state for so long he was avoiding tropes / trying to avoid a predictable 'good wins' ending.

It does look like the deck is being stacked to set things up for the return of the Targaryans + some kind of joining with the Stark family to provide a "legitimate rule" where the "bad guys" aren't going to win. In one sense, people hate stories where there isn't a happier resolution; I doubt Lord of the Rings would be so popular if Sauron or Saruman had won, the story would likely have continued until somehow they were overthrown. But tropes exist for a reason, I guess. [Does anyone really want Stannis to be king?]

Interesting that Jon wears black all the time and Daenerys wears white... we've got Yin/Yang spinning around and around there, except with a Western flair.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You're alluding to Daenerys “Deus Ex Machina” Targaryen, and the Unsullied/Slaves? Yeah I think that is more, and I'm going to get crucified for saying it......... bad writing. Well inconsistent would be more accurate GRRM wants his shades of grey; but at the same time he wants the good guys to win in the end. She's the pure saviour, which is why everything has to land at her feet. Hell she's got the only army that is guaranteed not to rape and loot Westeros.

I agree with you on this, but I'm ok with that.

In much the same way that Jon Snow has to be a man child who screws up and whines a lot.

I'd say Jon Snow acts like a 16-year-old.

Actually I suppose there is an element of sexism to that dynamic. Jon has to prove he is a man; by going on a quest, having sex, killing, and so on. Whilst Daenerys is to avoid contamination. Both are a bit ridiculous.

I'm inclined to disagree.

I'd argue that Danerys also goes on a quest. Don't the same things happen to her? I don't see Danerys avoiding contamination at all. She burned people alive and fucks Daario!

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm inclined to disagree.

I'd argue that Danerys also goes on a quest. Don't the same things happen to her? I don't see Danerys avoiding contamination at all. She burned people alive and fucks Daario!

Well, she fucks Daario in secret. I think the culture would be upset with her for fucking anyone; meanwhile, Jon's only criticized because of who he was fucking because it "confuses his loyalties."

There's also an issue where her image is of the "divine mother." Jon's image isn't really tied to his gender so blatantly.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, she fucks Daario in secret. I think the culture would be upset with her for fucking anyone; meanwhile, Jon's only criticized because of who he was fucking because it "confuses his loyalties."

Yes, but I'd argue that this doesn't mean that the author is sexist.

There's also an issue where her image is of the "divine mother." Jon's image isn't really tied to his gender so blatantly.

Well, we can look at the Faith of the Seven in Westeros (which are also seven aspects of one God.) There's the Maiden, Mother, Crone, Warrior, Smith, Father, and Stranger. Three of these, the Maiden, Mother and Crone are female. Then there's the Warrior, Smith, and Father. (The Stranger is sort of a sinister figure symbolizing death that is neither male nor female, and often isn't even depicted as human. I'd say this is the Devil figure....almost no one prays to the Stranger.)

I'd say that Jon Snow's image is of the Smith... his interest isn't really in conquering or killing, although he'll do these things if he needs to. He goes against the staid judgments of elders and comes up with a better way. And he can understand the folks on the other side even as he fights them (which causes him to be seen with suspicion).

Now, Jon Snow's image isn't seen as specifically male because male is the "default," but to say that Jon Snow can do whatever he wants with no consequences is a mistake.

 

[Qre:us]

You're alluding to Daenerys “Deus Ex Machina” Targaryen, and the Unsullied/Slaves? Yeah I think that is more, and I'm going to get crucified for saying it......... bad writing. Well inconsistent would be more accurate GRRM wants his shades of grey; but at the same time he wants the good guys to win in the end. She's the pure saviour, which is why everything has to land at her feet. Hell she's got the only army that is guaranteed not to rape and loot Westeros. In much the same way that Jon Snow has to be a man child who screws up and whines a lot.

I like it!

I actually have thought the same about Danerys, and how things seem to work out for her, in the end, always. Even if there are "prices" she pays. Her scenes are painful to watch, in that regard. There's no falling. Just rise, rise, rise. I'm just not that invested. I'm hoping her two dragons turn on her, because she kept them locked up.

There's this sense that her resolve comes from an external source, 'ought to', than an internal source, 'want to'. I don't think she's really owned her role/position yet. For all her steel resolve, decision-making, and immovable moral code, there's a tension within her, like she truly doesn't buy into her own confidence yet.

***

Cersei, I actually like her character as a player within the setting. I know she will fall, ultimately, in this story, and it will be one of the most interesting falls to see. The flashback to her younger days, and having her palm blood read, and the prediction that she will be "overthrown" by someone more beautiful than she, got me wondering as to the possibilities. The most obvious allusion to that prophecy is Danerys, of course. But, I wonder if it refers to more than one individual? I think Cersei's house of cards, and all that she holds dear/loves, will be undone by three who are younger and more beautiful than she. Danerys (taking away her political power), Margery (taking away her son), and Brienne (taking away her other half/Jaime).

As for Arya, I have a theory about her reaching the House of the Black and White (praying to the God of death), and Jaqen Hagar. He just seemed to randomly appear, one day, when she, Hot Pie and Gendry were held captive, and he just offers to assassinate for her. Seems so random. WHY?

Given that we know he's a 'faceless man', and can change faces, I truly think he is her old Braavos teacher, from King's Landing. Who I loved, loved!! Reminded me of Montaya from The Princess Bride. We know he was surrounded by the King's Landing guards, and then the scene fades out, as he faces off against them. And we never hear anything about him, until, a few episodes later, mysterious Jaqen appears to Arya. But, I remember he had taught her something, I think it was something like, 'what do we say to Death?" "Not today." And given that Braavos' saying is, Valar Morghulis (?) = All men must die, and there is that scene..

I am putting this under spolier as I have watched all four episodes, and can't recall if this was in an episode yet to be aired:
...where Arya watches a man arrive in the crypt she is sweeping, and he seems to request a drink, which Jaqen gives him, from the fountain pool of "death" (?) and then he goes to pray to the God of Death, and dies.

I think Jaquen/Arya's old teacher, the philosophy of these faceless men is that, yes, all men must die, but very few get to choose when to die. Because they are attached. Attached to power, to identity, to some sense of "self". Let go, and you are freed from the stronghold of death, in a sense. Which will also mean letting go of vengeance. Vengeance means "you" are still alive, with your own agenda, to right your own wrongs. Interesting that Arya's own list seems to grow shorter along her journey.

When you are no one, death is hardly something that holds power over you, because there's no fear of losing "you" through death. You can call death, rather than spending a lifetime trying to avoid answering its call.

OH! Except when someone gives you, the assassin, your own name, as part of her kill list. haha, love Arya.

I loved that Arya is still learning, and that her past, the Starks, her identity within it, still calls to her, and she can't fully let go. Her hiding Needle and not being able to throw it away.

As for the ultimate conclusion to the Game of Thrones, there's the basic and simple question. How can a game of thrones end? Well....when you stop playing the game. It might just be that the throne itself will be melted away, with each "kingdom" ruling their own, with a ruler chosen by the people. United we stand (against the whitewalkers), and all that american pie goodness.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think that by the end of the story, the characters who are playing around with identities, like Arya, Sansa, and Theon will either recover their own, or they will suffer the consequences. It's still not clear in the books who the Faceless Men serve. Why should we assume that it is something good?

Theon has lost his identity, and it was always conflicted to begin with. But, is he better off now that he has lost his identity? It looks like he's just vulnerable to exploitation by Ramsey, and I'm not sure that anyone deserves that.

 

[Totenkindly]

...welll... he lost more than his identity.

just sayin'.

 

[Qre:us]

...welll... he lost more than his identity.

just sayin'.

One can argue that what he lost seemed to be quite tied to his previous identity, in the first place. He was a whore, before.

***

I think there's definitely the exploration of "identity" that's strong within GoT.

Practically every character seems to be asking themselves, "who am I (in all this)? What is my purpose?"

Except for, Varys and Littlefinger. I think they're the most self-aware characters, and it's a flip of the formula in that they know who they are, and the intrigue is in the audience figuring it out. While for most other characters, it's a journey for the audience, along with the characters themselves, to figure out who that character is/will become.

And having to define, redefine, and refine, as they go along.

From Jaime, losing his hand, and meeting Brienne.

Brienne, being confronted by Jaime, and the fact that there are greys within all the black and white.

Arya - as discussed above...

Jon Snow - bastard of the North/true Stark, or, a Night's Watch Lord Commander

Danerys - losing Khal Drogo, finding her "power", and then figuring out the potential of that power. What does it take to be a just ruler?

Cersei - always being undermined by assholes with penises who don't want her at the decisions table, when she has been desperately playing the game for as long as she has

Tyrion - killing his father, and all the pressure that his father put on him, with that gone, what is his purpose now? Beyond trying to antagonize (prove himself worthy to) Daddy Dearest.

Theon - ofc

Sansa - like Brienne, holding on to the idealism, when warring agendas serve as a stark reminder that dreams rarely remain pure, in this world, and how to align oneself for survival, to achieve one's ultimate aim

Forgot to mention, Bran Stark (who we haven't seen in S5 yet) - his identity arc is a powerful one, too! Mind control, ftw! Wonder if he'll ever upgrade (downgrade?) from Hodor and ultimately mind control a dragon? Thinking more on it, this is a distinct possibility, in the ultimate battle with the Whitewalkers. As there is the most powerful dragon, the wayward one, who Danerys has lost all control of, that's flying and wrecking havoc on everything, the black one (name?) that came to Danerys briefly in S5 ep 2, and then flew away, and if he'll be the one to ultimately "tame" it.

etc, etc....

EDIT: Then there are the completely un(self)aware characters, who I have termed the ultimate pawns in this game. It does not bode well for them:
Prime examples:

Stannis I-ain't-nuthin'-without-that-red-woman Baratheon

Joffrey But-I-Am-The-King "Baratheon"

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

etc, etc....

What about Ser Pounce? I imagine he's trying to decide if he wants to leave a dead mouse at the portcullis of the Red Keep.

 

[Ivy]

AHHHHHHH [MENTION=5645]Qre:us[/MENTION] you just blew my mind with the faceless man = "dancing" teacher theory!!!

 

[Totenkindly]

AHHHHHHH you just blew my mind with the faceless man = "dancing" teacher theory!!!

I actually heard of it last week, right after the season started... apparently it's been making the rounds among fan circles. But yeah, I dunno. I'm personally uncertain; but there is the reality that we never did see what happened to her teacher (no body, no idea of what happened after that battle), and in a way it would be a nice circle of completion. That she was recognized and selected from an early age, and that regardless of her being lost and "on her own" for so long, someone was actually looking out for her for much of it.

After all... WHY did that guy look out for her when she was captured? Who is she to warrant a man like that stepping in to help her?

 

[Ivy]

It makes perfect sense, and I never thought that guy died anyway. I figured he had told his Braavos homies about her and she would see him when she got to Braavos but I LOVE this theory and I'm on board with it 100%.

 

[Frosty]

Now I really want to watch this show!

 

[Totenkindly]

Now I really want to watch this show!

DO IT. DO IT. DO IT.

All current 42 episodes.
BWA HA HA.
42 hours [slightly more] of GoT goodness.
WEEKEND MARATHON.

One can argue that what he lost seemed to be quite tied to his previous identity, in the first place. He was a whore, before.

Nice. yes, in that sense he was.

Although you can also say he was a "whore" -- at least his family saw him as such, "whored out to the Starks" rather than to his own Greyjoy family. And now he's not even a whore because he's been entirely broken and victimized, a total object for another's purpose with no real mind or identity of his own.

I appreciate your comments about "identity," although all shows usually involve change as that's the basis of good drama... characters being refined by the situations they find themselves in, dealing with cognitive dissonance, having to be more than they are (or at least expand unused areas of themselves) in order to deal with situations they are not prepared to deal with. Many of these characters indeed were unchallenged and untested, and thought themselves one thing but are really something else... or becoming something else.

Still wondering about Stannis' daughter, with her Grayscale (or whatever it's called). You can't help but wonder about dragonblood or something... although in the last episode we did hear about people who died from the disease when their entire bodies were covered.

Except for, Varys and Littlefinger. I think they're the most self-aware characters, and it's a flip of the formula in that they know who they are, and the intrigue is in the audience figuring it out. While for most other characters, it's a journey for the audience, along with the characters themselves, to figure out who that character is/will become.

Yeah. I agree with that. Although there's some minor characters with self-awareness. (Like Ser Barristan, for example -- he's the same as he was all his life, it's a matter of integrity for him, he knows what his values are.)

 

[Qre:us]

I actually heard of it last week, right after the season started... apparently it's been making the rounds among fan circles. But yeah, I dunno. I'm personally uncertain; but there is the reality that we never did see what happened to her teacher (no body, no idea of what happened after that battle), and in a way it would be a nice circle of completion. That she was recognized and selected from an early age, and that regardless of her being lost and "on her own" for so long, someone was actually looking out for her for much of it.

After all... WHY did that guy look out for her when she was captured? Who is she to warrant a man like that stepping in to help her?

Exactly.

It makes perfect sense, and I never thought that guy died anyway. I figured he had told his Braavos homies about her and she would see him when she got to Braavos but I LOVE this theory and I'm on board with it 100%.

Initially, as soon as Jaqen appeared and identified himself as a Bravoosi, and targeted Arya, I thought the same, that her "teacher" had his buddies looking out for her, almost like a last wish/will, "In case of my death, there is this little wolf that needs your help!"

But, the idea that it is one and the same person, only took hold when I saw the old guy turn his face into Jaqen. Faceless Men = (M)Any Faces!

 

[Totenkindly]

...Which leaves me feeling like I have no idea what Arya is undertaking or who/what she will become -- and whether her own remaining family will ever recognize her again.