Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

Also, million-dollar question: Are the crypts actually a "safe space" when you're being attacked by a guy who can raise the dead at will?

Just curious.



"Say hi to your grandparents and give 'em a big hug for me!"

Maybe Sean Bean will be back for this one.


----

I still feel like Dany is being marginalized. Her arc has never been my favorite on the show, it's not that at all (where I would feel protective, if I really enjoyed her plotline).

It's just kind of weird how much time we've had to devote to it since she was off on her own timeline, it was like "here is the Westeros plot" and "Here is the Dany plot," she literally took up a good third of the show or more... but once she got to Westeros, she's just been subsumed into the larger plotline and now is somewhat more of an obstacle that the main throughline is kind of sweeping off to the side or setting up to become insignificant. Even trying to turn us a bit against her.

Why does she feel ineffectual? She used to be a Queen. Now she seems all out of sorts, a small girl in a way, totally unsure of what to do or how to apply herself per se.

Maybe I should start calling her Daenerys again. Dany is too familial.

 

[ceecee]

Also, million-dollar question: Are the crypts actually a "safe space" when you're being attacked by a guy who can raise the dead at will?

Just curious.



"Say hi to your grandparents and give 'em a big hug for me!"

Maybe Sean Bean will be back for this one.

I said this, almost verbatim in episode 1. White Walker Ned Stark is coming.

I still feel like Dany is being marginalized. Her arc has never been my favorite on the show, it's not that at all (where I would feel protective, if I really enjoyed her plotline).

It's just kind of weird how much time we've had to devote to it since she was off on her own timeline, it was like "here is the Westeros plot" and "Here is the Dany plot," she literally took up a good third of the show or more... but once she got to Westeros, she's just been subsumed into the larger plotline and now is somewhat more of an obstacle that the main throughline is kind of sweeping off to the side or setting up to become insignificant. Even trying to turn us a bit against her.

They are definitely trying to get us to turn against her. Because we've never been against Jon - much easier. Oh and when he told Dany, that whole matter of fact conversation, no one seemed too worried about the incest-ish issue. I think they're totally laughing at us for pearl clutching.

What went down with Bran and Tyrion's conversation? And why do they keep letting Bran just wander off wherever?

Sansa + Theon
Jamie + Brianne then
Arya + Gendry - Take off your own pants
Lyanna Mormont - As soon as I heard her protesting at Jorah, I knew she is probably going to have the biggest WW body count.
Missandei and Grey Worm - I really want them to make it to the beach. I wish GoT took better care with their POC characters.

 

[Totenkindly]

Lyanna Mormont: If she does kick off, I'd like it to be smothered under a collapsing huge wall of walkers she's killed. What a monument.

Missandei/Grey Worm: I have a bad feeling about that. But they haven't really been dealt with as characters for many episodes now, maybe they could just let someone sail off into the sunset?

As far as the incest thing goes -- I don't really care much from the biological angle, for me it's more about families raised together. So if you grow up with someone as a parent or a sibling or another relative, where the goal is about a particular style of relationship to foster survival and nurturing, then it can lead to abuse if you throw sex in there. Not in all situations possibly, but it definitely can create confusion and lead to an exploitation of vulnerability, especially where one member is an authority over the other.

But I never really got how people who were separated at birth, get involved as adults, then realize they are related, were under some kind of stigma. Like, who cares, aside from potential genetic issues if offspring is produced? In terms of relationships, they are not really related. They are in the same boat as non-genetic relations who got romantically involved. They can decide for themselves whether they feel better being relatives or being partners. To me, the whole "incest" issue with Jon and Daenerys is a non-issue based on their past relationship -- which was nil.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Bonus point: Giant milk???? hahahaha.

I'm so glad he's still around. I hope he lasts for at least a few more episodes.

The only character I'd be surprised to see the loss of is Arya. For some reason, I've got a feeling she's going to be the one to take out Cersei. Like maybe if Jaime doesn't quite make it, she'll use his face.

Man,

the whole Arya/Gendry "Will they? Won't they?" didn't last long. I thought it was well done though. I was a shipper for them. I'll admit it.

I just realized why I find New Bran's voice grating. It reminds me too much of Noel Fielding's character in the IT Crowd.

It's not so distracting that I can't find New Bran effectively creepy, but it's a bit distracting nonetheless. I love the effect he has on Jaime.

Why does Bran have that mark on his wrist (which connects him to the Night King)? Is it because the Night King touched him in that vision (the one that happened while they were holed up under the big tree - I know it broke the spell that protected everything under the tree, but maybe it left that mark on Bran as well?)? Or does it just come with the Three Eyed Raven package?

And the ending: I realized they have to cram a whole lot into this final season, but was having Jon tell Daenerys about being the actual rightful heir to the throne moments before this ginormous battle a bad idea? (Especially without solid evidence that it's true - so it's jarring on at least a couple levels: the implications if it is true, the possibility that it's not and that Jon is lying/conspiring against her, etc). There might be something I'm not seeing, but I'd have thought "don't fuck with the queen's head moments before huge battle" would be common sense. Maybe he wanted to make sure she knew, and there's no guarantee there'd be anyone there to tell her afterwards or maybe she wouldn't be around herself. But still, I'd have thought it'd still just be really bad strategy and the likely cost of coming clean wouldn't be worth the gain. Anyway.

And yeah- about hiding in the crypt - how have NONE of the characters thought about the bodies turning into wights? You'd think there'd have been at least one or two comments about it. eta: I mean, just an aside like, "the dead bodies down there shouldn't be a problem since they're all covered with a heavy stone slab and individually they aren't strong enough to move one by themselves" or "we'll send down enough dragonstone to take care of any bodies that wake up" or the like would have sufficed.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I've had a bad feeling that Brienne isn't going to make it past this battle. The scene knighting her pushed me further in that direction. And just now, this:

 

[Totenkindly]

"We you Brienne. Always and forever."

She'll probably do something super-noble.

I'm so glad he's still around. I hope he lasts for at least a few more episodes.

If he was going to go, it was during that ill-fated walker run where he was almost dragged into the water but the Hound and Beric (?) saved him. Now I feel like he's got some plot armor until he does whatever they want him to do.. or maybe he'll make it through to the end. He's kind of the new comic relief, with Tyrion too moody...

The only character I'd be surprised to see the loss of is Arya. For some reason, I've got a feeling she's going to be the one to take out Cersei. Like maybe if Jaime doesn't quite make it, she'll use his face.

I have heard that too. I'd say it's on the board as a possibility, maybe a little more likely than Tyrion or Jaime being walkerized and killing her in their creepy undead hands.

Why does Bran have that mark on his wrist (which connects him to the Night King)? Is it because the Night King touched him in that vision (the one that happened while they were holed up under the big tree - I know it broke the spell that protected everything under the tree, but maybe it left that mark on Bran as well?)? Or does it just come with the Three Eyed Raven package?

All I know about it what you said -- when the NK grabbed his arm when he was seering. It did leave the mark on his arm, physically -- he looked at his arm and saw it right after he woke up and that's what Old 3ER told him he now had the NK's mark on him. It looked literally like fingers pressed into his skin, like you'd see on a murder victim. So I am guessing it is unique to Bran, although we never got to inspect the Old 3ER.

And the ending: I realized they have to cram a whole lot into this final season, but was having Jon tell Daenerys about being the actual rightful heir to the throne moments before this ginormous battle a bad idea? (Especially without solid evidence that it's true - so it's jarring on at least a couple levels: the implications if it is true, the possibility that it's not and that Jon is lying/conspiring against her, etc). There might be something I'm not seeing, but I'd have thought "don't fuck with the queen's head moments before huge battle" would be common sense. Maybe he wanted to make sure she knew, and there's no guarantee there'd be anyone there to tell her afterwards or maybe she wouldn't be around herself. But still, I'd have thought it'd still just be really bad strategy and the likely cost of coming clean wouldn't be worth the gain. Anyway.

This is Jon Snow. He's not able to lie when convenient. Apparently he also is unable to not tell the truth when convenient.

More kindly, it's been eating at him and he was avoiding Daenerys to AVOID saying anything, so when she found him he folded -- because it's preoccupying him. He cares about her too much to keep something from her. But it was still kind of dumb of him.

I mean:
STABBED THROUGH THE HEART
AND YOU'RE [STILL] TO BLAME
YOU [JON SNOW] GIVE LOVE
A BAD NAME

you'd think he'd have learned the first time. He's too much like his [non]-Dad.

 

[Sacrophagus]

The omnipresent "We are doomed" atmosphere in this episode is absolutely magnificent.

It happens that I was wondering about the fatality and finality of my decisiveness that sometimes grazes merciless pride and stubbornness. The scene in which Jaime Lannister stood before Daenerys was amazing in many ways, and one of them is him reminding us of the existence of attributes that are much more important than the self. Loyalty to your kin Vs Survival of the living, which one would you pick?

I would openly relinquish loyalty if the side I served speaks no justice, nor has any smart and humane concern in times of turmoil, even if the said side was aligned with my ambitions.

Fortunately, Jaime is not the ostentatious fool who hid behind his father's name anymore. I do think he was honorable since the beginning, but just like Sansa said, "Men do stupid things for women (They love)".
I particularly liked the knighting of Brienne. Well deserved acknowledgment.


-I'm not surprised there was no scripted reaction regarding the incestuous nature of Jon and Daenerys' relationship, however. Targaryens are used to marry among themselves to keep their dragon blood pure.

-Arya/Gendry scene.

 

[Totenkindly]

Somewhat interesting. Some of the casting fits, some is just terrible.
Of course, the casting of Tyrion speaks for itself.

In case anyone forgot, Peter Dinklage is actually an American speaking with an English accent. I love hearing him actually speak in his regular voice, it cracks me up.

Recasting "Game Of Thrones" With Only American Actors

 

[1487610420]

The omnipresent "We are doomed" atmosphere in this episode is absolutely magnificent.

It happens that I was wondering about the fatality and finality of my decisiveness that sometimes grazes merciless pride and stubbornness. The scene in which Jaime Lannister stood before Daenerys was amazing in many ways, and one of them is him reminding us of the existence of attributes that are much more important than the self. Loyalty to your kin Vs Survival of the living, which one would you pick?

I would openly relinquish loyalty if the side I served speaks no justice, nor has any smart and humane concern in times of turmoil, even if the said side was aligned with my ambitions.

Fortunately, Jaime is not the ostentatious fool who hid behind his father's name anymore. I do think he was honorable since the beginning, but just like Sansa said, "Men do stupid things for women (They love)".
I particularly liked the knighting of Brienne. Well deserved acknowledgment.


-I'm not surprised there was no scripted reaction regarding the incestuous nature of Jon and Daenerys' relationship, however. Targaryens are used to marry among themselves to keep their dragon blood pure.

-Arya/Gendry scene.

Daenerys Targaryen on Twitter: "Sophie Turner bringing the tea ️
https://t.co/ragG7oKh7S"

 

[meowington]

This is Jon Snow. He's not able to lie when convenient. Apparently he also is unable to not tell the truth when convenient.

you'd think he'd have learned the first time. He's too much like his [non]-Dad.

Not entirely, cause at least Ned Stark kept the same thing secret for all those years. But point taken.

I symphatize even more with Jon, for not being able to tell a lie, ever.

“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.” ~ Mark Twain

Oh well, seen enough fiction to know he'll pay the price for it.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not really, cause at least Ned Stark kept the same thing secret for all those years.

I symphatize even more with Jon, for not being able to tell a lie, ever. Never really understood why that is very badly received irl.

Because no one is actually 100% honest, because honesty taken to an extreme can become a lack of compassion or a lack of foresight of the larger goals?

My comments were more casual/funny in intention, so I wasn't expecting to explain them from a serious POV; but pretty much if you have a larger goal in mind that serves the greater good, it can be really stupid at times to undermine it by volunteering needless information out of "honesty."

Jon's not really "disruptive" in the sense of his honesty per se... but like Ned he loses track of the forest for the trees. Yes, forests are more complicated and it's simpler to just describe the tree in front of you; but that doesn't mean it's automatically the best decision.

I guess for me, evaluating his choice to tell Daenerys his heritage, at best it comes down to if it was SO disturbing him that he would not be able to function at full capacity for this fight rather than waiting until afterwards (and if they lose or one or both of them dies, would it have mattered?) but he has basically been "honest" at her expense (because now she needs to grapple with it during this fight) as well as anyone else impacted by that needless disruption. He wants to win this battle, but because he couldn't keep his mouth shut for minutes/hours more, he put everything he values at higher risk. All he had to do was wait until after the fight.

Then again, that's what makes for tragic characters. People are who we are, and sometimes we do undermine ourselves because we can't not be ourselves. And it does make his integrity unassailable, as people know he speaks truth since he does it so often when it is not in his best interest. Then again, Ned lost for the same thing, and those with more ability to "play the game" and less integrity were still alive to influence the direction of the world.

 

[meowington]

Because no one is actually 100% honest, because honesty taken to an extreme can become a lack of compassion or a lack of foresight of the larger goals?

I wouldn't say "no one". There's people just as stupid like Jon Snow And perhaps for selfish reasons : because a secret starts eating on them, like you said.
But you're right : for sake of compasion or strategic reasons, he had better waited. And for all we know, Daenaerys might finish him off right in the middle of battle..

 

[Totenkindly]

Here's a question about the Night King's vulnerability:

I guess Valeryan steel could be effective?

But we've already seen him dismiss regular fire. Not sure if Dragon Fire would have an impact. And srsly, if that were the case, Daenerys should have just fried him in the north instead of merely rescuing Jon and company.

Also, he was created by implanting dragonglass into his chest. I'm unsure as of whether dragonglass would impact him...?

Anyway, that only leaves the Valeryan steel. How is Valeryan steel made, from the book source?

It does seem very clear that the only way they will win this battle decisively is to kill the Night King and hopefully anything he raised will die. "But what is dead can never die"?

 

[meowington]

Here's a question about the Night King's vulnerability:

I guess Valeryan steel could be effective?

Possibly. Perhaps it's the only way to make sense of that scene where Samwell hands over that sword to Jora I could only think "what good is that going to do?".

There has got to be some weakness. Because otherwise it's gonna be a walkover. He has a huge army of white walkers, he kills dragons easily (also the reason why Daenerys couldn't finish him before, I suppose) and has a dragon himself.

They've understood that Bran is their only option. Let's hope whatever he and Tyrion have in store, plays out well.

 

[ceecee]

 

[Lark]

Here's a question about the Night King's vulnerability:

I guess Valeryan steel could be effective?

But we've already seen him dismiss regular fire. Not sure if Dragon Fire would have an impact. And srsly, if that were the case, Daenerys should have just fried him in the north instead of merely rescuing Jon and company.

Also, he was created by implanting dragonglass into his chest. I'm unsure as of whether dragonglass would impact him...?

Anyway, that only leaves the Valeryan steel. How is Valeryan steel made, from the book source?

It does seem very clear that the only way they will win this battle decisively is to kill the Night King and hopefully anything he raised will die. "But what is dead can never die"?

The Night King is an Avatar of Death in the GoT world.

So at the very best he's something which can be dispelled but which will return in time, like that baddy in LOTR which hangs out in Mordor.

At the very worst, and I dont see why this wouldnt be the case, he could simply just feign his death in some routine battle were he's at a disadvantage, ie someone possesses weapons he's vulnerable, and rematerialize when its most advantageous to him. Why not?

Or there's always the possibility that he's not the real Big Bad that people have suspected he is and that if he perishes there Children of The Forest have a mutually assured destruction Plan B.

 

[Lark]

I dont really know why the Night King marched to Winter Fell, it'd make more sense if he'd sneaked past there, stormed Kingslanding, wrecked all the forces there and then marched back north and destroyed the force there, which by that stage would be starving with hunger as they have to eat and the dead dont and he'd also have swelled his forces with the dead from Kingslanding, not that they didnt out number them anyway.

I mean sure they're magic, there's wights in their number aswell as zombis but they should have had someone who had read a book on their side and could formulate a freaking war/battle strategy.

- - - Updated - - -

Goat?

 

[ceecee]

I dont really know why the Night King marched to Winter Fell, it'd make more sense if he'd sneaked past there, stormed Kingslanding, wrecked all the forces there and then marched back north and destroyed the force there, which by that stage would be starving with hunger as they have to eat and the dead dont and he'd also have swelled his forces with the dead from Kingslanding, not that they didnt out number them anyway.

I mean sure they're magic, there's wights in their number aswell as zombis but they should have had someone who had read a book on their side and could formulate a freaking war/battle strategy.

- - - Updated - - -



Goat?

Greatest Of All Time

 

[Lark]

Because no one is actually 100% honest, because honesty taken to an extreme can become a lack of compassion or a lack of foresight of the larger goals?

My comments were more casual/funny in intention, so I wasn't expecting to explain them from a serious POV; but pretty much if you have a larger goal in mind that serves the greater good, it can be really stupid at times to undermine it by volunteering needless information out of "honesty."

Jon's not really "disruptive" in the sense of his honesty per se... but like Ned he loses track of the forest for the trees. Yes, forests are more complicated and it's simpler to just describe the tree in front of you; but that doesn't mean it's automatically the best decision.

I guess for me, evaluating his choice to tell Daenerys his heritage, at best it comes down to if it was SO disturbing him that he would not be able to function at full capacity for this fight rather than waiting until afterwards (and if they lose or one or both of them dies, would it have mattered?) but he has basically been "honest" at her expense (because now she needs to grapple with it during this fight) as well as anyone else impacted by that needless disruption. He wants to win this battle, but because he couldn't keep his mouth shut for minutes/hours more, he put everything he values at higher risk. All he had to do was wait until after the fight.

Then again, that's what makes for tragic characters. People are who we are, and sometimes we do undermine ourselves because we can't not be ourselves. And it does make his integrity unassailable, as people know he speaks truth since he does it so often when it is not in his best interest. Then again, Ned lost for the same thing, and those with more ability to "play the game" and less integrity were still alive to influence the direction of the world.

The thing is that you could see that was outside of his norms and experience, the heritage, what had passed between him and her already etc. but to her as a born and bred Tygarean it wasnt really such a big deal.

I think those with less integrity living to fight another day and being ascendent is a reflection of both the actual war of the roses which inspired the story, definitely in Shakespeare's play cycle of the same (the Star Wars of its day), also classic Machavellian The Prince analysis of historical Realpolitik. Its very possibly just entropy and atrophy at work too among elites, so less and less worthy types are ascendent over time.

GRR Martin has written some books which are different though, I know he doesnt like Fevre Dream since it was his first book and I think largely written with a friend in mind but it features one of the best depictions of evil I've read in a book and also evil's failure and why (its insatiable and a deteriorated or degenerate shadow of the good). That book has nastier stuff in it than GoT too. If you ask me.

The thing about the Starks is that they are the only house whose motto isnt a boast either, that says a lot about their character but also the role they have played, all the rest are boastful in their House motto and their family sayings or mini mottos, which suggests they all have engaged in intrigue, all of them but the Starks who are instead focused on defending the wall and much more ancient battles, ie living, undead, human, magic, human, old ones etc.

Also the Nights Watch, like I get the impression that that coalition and its calling indicate an earlier time of perpetual battle and I dont mean between them and the Wildlings, but between them and children of the forest and other things like that, they are the most 40K of the whole GoT world.

The cool thing about the whole GoT world is that its long, long, long after the fact in terms of its true "Golden Age" high adventure, if you know what I mean, which I personally liked and I always thought of it resembling Dune in a medieval setting, as Dune deals with some insane time scales or time lapses too.

At its height I'd have said the Nights Watch should have been like some kind of martial equivalent of what the Citadel was in learning or that other place was in magicians, like every one of the fighters there being the most learned in combat prowess its possible to be, instead none of them would have had much chance against the "dancing master" who instructed Arya, the fighters of the Faceless Men (I know you only see two, maybe three at most) or the Wu Shu style of fighting of the dude who gets his head crushed by The Mountain. The point at which the show features the Nightswatch I tend to think they are about the same as the wildlings they are battling at different points but just dress differently.

 

[Lark]

Greatest Of All Time

Ah, I see, I wouldnt disagree as of all the characters she's trained with the most martial arts masters and learned the most different fighting styles.

I'm biased perhaps too but I think the rapier and dagger are the best weapons, though I've not seen the episode were she uses the two headed spear thing that she asked that dude to make for her so I dont know how that performs, it looked a little like Klingon or Predator weaponary to me, though that other guy who fought the Mountain had one and used it in a sort of Wu Shu style.