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Free Speech Discussion

magpie

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Can't have students put on a play about racial stereotypes they have experienced or anything like that....

Paternalism run amok.....

This one is really disturbing too.

Until last year, NMU had a long-standing practice of prohibiting students suspected of engaging in or considering self-harm from discussing “suicidal or self-destructive thoughts or actions” with other students. If they did, they faced the threat of disciplinary action.
 

Zoom

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So then would you consider yelling over someone or interrupting them in an everday conversation to be violating that person's freedom of speech?

I live in one of the most liberal and activist cities in the U.S., and recently this exact thing has been happening on a rather large scale during protests. Air horns, whistles, group chants, & megaphones are used at times to drown out anyone and everyone who interacts with the protest - even when two people holding different opinions are trying to have a discussion. It's very childish, and ineffective.

You should totally twitter him that. If you do, would you please share any response with the forum?


:popc1:

Why would I do that?

(and I don't have a Twitter account and am not interested in making one)

Yiannopoulos was banned from Twitter permanently, so no worries there. :coffee:

Is Milo the guy you hold 'hands' with?

:huh:


There are so many of these laws I've seen broken at protests in Oregon, where I live.

What has seemed to become more prevalent and disturbing in the last 3-4 years is the redefining of being offensive toward someone as committing an act of violence against them. This development has been utilized on many of the aforementioned top 10 worst campuses to further restrict the right to free speech on campus.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'd also be interested in discussing this from a news pov. Do you think news media is obligated to report events "factually," or is that a violation of free speech or an over-simplification?
This is a difficult topic because there is a monopoly on information in the media now. There isn't a way to express an equivalent rebuttal to false information. In a way the average person has diminished freedom of speech in the face of the mass media who owns and dominates information now. So, there are two issues: first is the freedom to say whatever is in your mind, and second is the power to say it in a context that can influence.

Also, imagine that people A are part of a group calling for people B to be murdered. Should they be allowed to call for that, to encourage action toward that with speech? And if people A's encouragement actually leads to people B being murdered, should people A's gathering be legally disbanded?
Society's that have unlimited freedom of action are anarchist. Society's that value freedom attempt to provide the greatest freedoms for each individual up to the point they do not encroach on the freedoms of another individual. If each individual is equal, then the right of one person to talk about killing someone is limited to whatever point it is not possible to cross the line and violate the life of another individual. Freedom is a state of equilibrium in which each person's domain of control is limited to their own life. This topic becomes morally complex when people by nature have power over other individuals (parents-children, employers-employees), and this is where it is difficult when one person's rights by their very nature impede onto another's rights. The parent has a right to their beliefs and culture and by the nature of the relationship with the child, the child is vulnerable to submit to those ideas overriding their own freedoms. The same is true of a personally owned business in which the employer, by the very nature of their relationship to the employee, has the capacity to override the rights of the employee's freedoms.

In this way, the question of freedom is directly linked to the question of relative levels of power. If everyone had equal levels of power, they would have equal levels of freedom. However, it seems that it is not possible for societies to operate without hierarchies of power, beginning with the family. This is the underlying moral conflict of this question of freedom.
 

SpankyMcFly

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Yiannopoulos was banned from Twitter permanently, so no worries there. :coffee:

Good point! Touche. I don't twitter, seems gross frankly, although I've recently considered it to add it to my information gathering stream instead of relying on those who monitor feeds to filter and report.
 

ceecee

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Good point! Touche. I don't twitter, seems gross frankly, although I've recently considered it to add it to my information gathering stream instead of relying on those who monitor feeds to filter and report.

I think you should, it's very compartmentalized and efficient. Not gross, well, it depends on who you follow. Jenna Jameson is gross, the trolls are gross but I don't like being lumped in with them. Sometimes I just want to see what's happening with the hockey game.
 

Mole

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Free Speech is a result of and a necessity for the free press.

Free speech works in the press because print distances us from our emotions. Print leaves us emotionally disengaged, so we can consider at our leisure the pros and cons of any argument.

On the other hand the electric media such as the smart phone and the television plunge us into shared emotions across the globe, and there is no time to consider the pros and cons, no, we immediately respond to the shared emotions of the global village.

So naturally free speech is falling out of favour, and we are considering not the pros and cons of an argument, no, we are now considering the feelings of identity groups. We are creating safe spaces for such identity groups. We are exquisitely sensitive to the vibe.
 

draon9

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Yu can say whatever you want whether truth or lies, but you might have to pay the price with your life
 

Mole

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Yu can say whatever you want whether truth or lies, but you might have to pay the price with your life

Rather than truth or lies which are cognitive and rational, we need to consider whether it is offensive or politically correct, which is an emotional decision. Our society has moved from the mind to the emotions, and we now share our emotions in real time across the globe, so we need to be sensitive to the feelings of others. Those who are not sensitive to the feelings of others will be seen as emotional abusers.

On the other hand, it is wise to remember, a gentleman is never unintentionally offensive.
 

Coriolis

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I'd also be interested in discussing this from a news pov. Do you think news media is obligated to report events "factually," or is that a violation of free speech or an over-simplification?
We limit speech in many occupations. For example, people answering the phone at the Poison Control Center are required to give accurate information to callers in emergency situations. Your average receptionist at an office is required to say something like, "Thank you for calling Company XYZ. This is Stephen. How may I help you?" whether he wants to or not. I suppose the freedom part comes from not having to accept a job with speech requirements we are unwilling to accept. If we do accept such a job and insist on speaking freely in a constitutional sense, we may get reprimanded or even fired. This illustrates the flip side of free speech: we may have a right to it, but others have a right to react with displeasure to what we say. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" comes to mind.

So, regarding the press. IME this is an occupation that requires one report the facts as accurately and responsibly as one can. Someone who prefers to editorialize or spin instead should find another job, such as hosting a talk show or working on a politician's staff (or running for office themselves).

Also, imagine that people A are part of a group calling for people B to be murdered. Should they be allowed to call for that, to encourage action toward that with speech? And if people A's encouragement actually leads to people B being murdered, should people A's gathering be legally disbanded?
I don't know the legal interpretations here, but in my layman's opinion, encouraging someone to commit a crime - e.g. murder - makes one an accessory to that crime.
 
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Whether you're on the left or right or in the middle we should all view political correctness as the poison it is. The forefathers of the United States gave us the first amendment because they were clever fellows. PC is an attempt to control language and in turn ultimately control thought. There's a reason why many compare it to doublespeak. It's an insidious device used to silence opposition through feigned outrage. The road it would lead us down is dark indeed. A ministry of speech dictating to all what are exceptable opinions and topics of discussion. This ministry could swing either way so even those who helped raise it up could be crushed under it's oppressive weight. Playing with rights is a dangerous thing and once they are suspended or abolished they are never returned willingly. Maybe the PC warriors should think about this as they march to bring about an age of repression while claiming they're fighting against it.
 

Tellenbach

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When you're comfortable with your positions, there shouldn't be any fear of hearing other people's perspectives. When someone tries to shut down speech, that's more a reflection of that person's own insecurity. People drown out speech when they don't have the knowledge to refute it and the speech makes them uncomfortable.

It's the equivalent of a Scientologist putting a filter on the internet to hide all discussion of the religion.

As for the news media, I think they can do whatever they want; the market will sort it all out. They're a business and if they can make money by selling fake news, then they should continue to do so. If enough people decide that the NYT or CNN is garbage, they'll lose advertisers (like ESPN) and go out of business.
 

Mole

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Free speech is bound by libel laws, criminal laws, and discrimination laws, and by competing human rights. But where free speech comes into its own is in parliament, which is bound by its own sovereign rules.
 

tinker683

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Put simply, I believe everyone has the right to say how they feel and what they think about something.

I also feel I have the right to ignore whomever I wish for any reason up and including because you are a) a moron who is spouting off bullshit and I'm tired of giving oxygen to your stupidity or b) an overflowing word toilet and don't actually have anything meaningful to say.

Case in point: If some shit-stain came to a nearby college campus and wanted to pontificate their horseshit to a gathering of gullible morons, I would strongly urge said college campus to allow such a gathering to take place AND I would hope everyone else would leave them be and respect their right to gather peaceably

For anyone who thinks that makes me "close minded" or "intolerant" or whatever pejorative you want to attach to me due to your own willingness to put up with other peoples stupid bullshit, please let me emphatically assure you that I can not and will not have one single fuck to give about that.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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I am all for pretty much unrestrained freedom of speech. There are some limits, like a direct incitement to violence, but those limits should be truly exceptional. In this respect, Americans have it right with their legal framework and tradition. Hate speech laws and such, on the books in many other countries, may be well intentioned, but they not only infringe on individual rights, they also prevent a true dialogue between groups they are supposed to protect and perpetuate fragmentation and isolation. They destroy the dialectic play of ideas.

But much more important than the legal framework is the social one. Specifically the unofficial censorship and self-censorship. The First Amendment is not very effective. The Danish cartoon affair is a good example. Unlike many major European newspapers, the American ones did a splendid job of self-censorship. The political correctness on American universities is apparently as rampant as elsewhere, if not more. Freedom of press indexes rank US not only below most European countries (with their hate speech laws) but even below some Caribbean ones.

The reality is that money talks, i.e. the freedom of speech is for the rich. [MENTION=8485]tinker683[/MENTION] above says that s/he has the right to ignore whomever s/he wants, but people like Trump or Soros are heard even by those who consider them morons spouting off bullshit.
 

Red Ribbon

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I believe people have the right to say whatever they want. I also believe that people have the right to be offended by something someone said. However, people often use that as an excuse to censor things like the media. I do think that people can and should be more thoughtful of what they say as well but it's not required of them to do so. I disagree with the belief that people should be protected from things that may shock them.

Essentially:
Speech should be completely free

But I think:
People should be more thoughtful of what they say and be open to discussion

And definitely:
I'm against most forms of censorship
 

Coriolis

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I believe people have the right to say whatever they want. I also believe that people have the right to be offended by something someone said. However, people often use that as an excuse to censor things like the media. I do think that people can and should be more thoughtful of what they say as well but it's not required of them to do so. I disagree with the belief that people should be protected from things that may shock them.

Essentially:
Speech should be completely free

But I think:
People should be more thoughtful of what they say and be open to discussion

And definitely:
I'm against most forms of censorship
Yes. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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Yes. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

On the face of it, it sounds perfectly reasonable. And most people understand it intuitively while operating in their interpersonal sphere. But this is a matter of tact. When we talk about free speech, we usually mean talk about ideas, not ad hominems. And here it's not so obvious that it is a reasonable statement.

To begin with, what does it mean that something is not right? If someone voices an opinion, do they usually think that the opinion is wrong? Why should they hold back? Because someone else tells them that their opinion is wrong?

Why should some ideas be off limit to criticism, opposition or even hostility? Just because some people believing them are too sensitive to act as adults?

I can understand why people say this. I often act like that myself. But as a matter of principle, it's wrong.
 

Coriolis

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On the face of it, it sounds perfectly reasonable. And most people understand it intuitively while operating in their interpersonal sphere. But this is a matter of tact. When we talk about free speech, we usually mean talk about ideas, not ad hominems. And here it's not so obvious that it is a reasonable statement.

To begin with, what does it mean that something is not right? If someone voices an opinion, do they usually think that the opinion is wrong? Why should they hold back? Because someone else tells them that their opinion is wrong?

Why should some ideas be off limit to criticism, opposition or even hostility? Just because some people believing them are too sensitive to act as adults?

I can understand why people say this. I often act like that myself. But as a matter of principle, it's wrong.
No, it is a fine and useful matter of principle. Some people may view it as a matter of tact. I view it in the context of what one hopes to accomplish, and the likely consquences - intended and unintended - of one's action. A "wrong" action will be counterproductive or bring undesired consequences. It doesn't require that the statement itself be wrong. Sure - I may have the right to spout my opinions at anyone I meet, but what is to be gained? In a discussion forum such as this, I might learn something or provide others with food for thought, but then we are willing participants in the threads where we post. IRL or in other online spaces, we might alienate a potential ally, break a confidence and lose someone's trust, lay ourselves open to identity theft, or many other things, all by exercising our right essentially to be stupid. We all have the right to do many things that bring mostly harm to ourselves and others.
 
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