[NT] Fellow NT's - Are you cold?

[proximo]

Just show your son how to kayak. Simple. Don't "teach him a lesson" or "take the backdoor approach to making sure he gets it". Just take him out and say in plain terms, "This is how you do it son!" Teach him. But, don't manipulate him.

Yes. That is how "we" (that is, I) "teach people certain things".

But anyway, total bonus that Billy turned up, cos now my initial point, that being empathic does not prevent a person from behaving cruelly/antisocially, has been completely proven

 

[Billy]

Just show your son how to kayak. Simple. Don't "teach him a lesson" or "take the backdoor approach to making sure he gets it". Just take him out and say in plain terms, "This is how you do it son!" Teach him. But, don't manipulate him.

That works as long as he isnt willful right? What if instead of kayaking he steals a candy bar from a store, should I have a logical discussion on why its logically wrong to steal that he wont care about because some kids learn that stealing gets you what you want. Or should I march his ass back into the store and make him hand the candy bar back and humiliate him? Which lesson plan do you think would be the most effective?

Hint I was the kid in the story, havent stolen since. Whether or not someone can rationally understand why they should or shouldnt do something doesn't always come up front, it comes some time later after reflection of time and consequences. The humiliation of having to admit that I was wrong forcefully though was enough of a lesson to know that stealing was wrong I didnt understand the concept of personal property until much later. Things much be learned in some ways sometimes.

 

[Resonance]

Just show your son how to kayak. Simple. Don't "teach him a lesson" or "take the backdoor approach to making sure he gets it". Just take him out and say in plain terms, "This is how you do it son!" Teach him. But, don't manipulate him.

And most importantly, if he wants to try doing it another way to see if it will work better, let him.

 

[Billy]

And most importantly, if he wants to try doing it another way to see if it will work better, let him.

What if he wants to be a drug dealer instead of a paper boy?

 

[proximo]

That works as long as he isnt willful right? What if instead of kayaking he steals a candy bar from a store, should I have a logical discussion on why its logically wrong to steal that he wont care about because some kids learn that stealing gets you what you want. Or should I march his ass back into the store and make him hand the candy bar back and humiliate him? Which lesson plan do you think would be the most effective?

Hint I was the kid in the story, havent stolen since.

I was once the kid in that story, too. I learned to be more subtle and careful next time, and that my dad was a pompous asshole, so just daydream or think of something else while he's droning on and on. And besides, why should I listen to what he says? He's a hypocritical asshole.

Point: I was not ready to learn that lesson. So I learned instead something negative, and it didn't stop the "undesired" behaviour. In the end, I learned in my own time, in my own way, and no longer steal.

Point 2: We're all different. We respond to things in different ways. We're not all you, neither should we be, neither do we want to be.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

That works as long as he isnt willful right? What if instead of kayaking he steals a candy bar from a store, should I have a logical discussion on why its logically wrong to steal that he wont care about because some kids learn that stealing gets you what you want. Or should I march his ass back into the store and make him hand the candy bar back and humiliate him? Which lesson plan do you think would be the most effective?

Hint I was the kid in the story, havent stolen since.

There is no manipulation within that story though. You did something wrong and you were punished. Societies rules aren't very good examples of manipulation because the broken rule has a direct punishment. It's when we get to those 'oh, so fun!' personal rules.

 

[proximo]

What if he wants to be a drug dealer instead of a paper boy?

I've observed, continuously throughout my life, that those kids who are taught with your "manipulation and control" method, and not allowed to learn lessons for themselves - that is, not allowed to learn the REAL reason why certain things are wrong or should not be done (as opposed to the reason of "it makes mom/dad mad and I get a tedious hour long lecture and probably humiliated etc) - they invariably go crazy when they leave home.

With nobody around any more to manipulate them and coerce their choices, and no true understanding of the real reasons why certain things shouldn't be done, they just go on a self-destructive, antisocial rampage.

Whilst kids who are raised in a more libertarian way have learned those lessons earlier on in life, learned them properly, and got them largely out of their system by their late teens. I speak as a former teenage criminal, myself.

 

[Resonance]

What if he wants to be a drug dealer instead of a paper boy?

Then he's not going to tell you about it, is he?

 

[INTPness]

This discussion reminds of a couple I know. The female is F and the male is T. Anytime the F female wants to convince her husband to go on vacation or do anything that she thinks is right, she tries to get people together to convince him that she is right. She will say stuff to me (and others) like, "Hey, when you talk to him, tell him how much fun it will be and why it would be good to try something new and blah, blah, blah."

I just say, "No, I'm just going to ask him very simply. Would you like to go or not?" Then it's his decision. I will not manipulate him to get my way. When I join in on one of her plans, I feel so freaking silly. I feel like a 5-year old. If you manipulate someone and get your way, what does it really achieve? All you did was get a false sense of satisfaction. They didn't do it on their own volition. It only happened because of some silly, pathetic, underhanded ploy of coercion.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

What if he wants to be a drug dealer instead of a paper boy?

You are tossing up some extreme examples. Admittedly I don't know how to handle this except to tell him that this idea isn't very reasonable at all... he would have to make sure he had clientele before he makes such a risky move. I want to meet a kid who says 'you know I guess my only options of living are... paper boy and drug dealer." I will not for a minute degrade situations where this may occur, but a simple no to such a thought would suffice.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Then he's not going to tell you about it, is he?

That too.

 

[Billy]

That too.

uhh yeah because I wouldn't notice my son suddenly having new clothes, electronics, and he never asks for money.. uh huh.

 

[INTPness]

I don't know how to handle this except to tell him that this idea isn't very reasonable at all... he would have to make sure he had clientele before he makes such a risky move.

:yim_rolling_on_the_

 

[proximo]

uhh yeah because I wouldn't notice my son suddenly having new clothes, electronics, and he never asks for money.. uh huh.

If he's stupid enough to flaunt it like that, he'll be caught soon, and THAT will teach him more than anything you can do with your tedious 'moral lessons'.

I didn't use the money for that crap. If I did, I'd pass it off as stuff borrowed from a friend, or birthday gifts. I'd stash my money in the bank, though most of it was spent as quickly as it was earned on alcohol, more drugs, parties and takeaways. All of which were consumed and recovered from away from my parents' presence, when they thought I was innocently watching DVD's at my friend's house. I was a heavy drug user and dealer from the age of 14 to 19 and as far as my parents knew, I was just "a bit of a wag" and had "the odd toke of a spliff now and again but nothing serious".

I did get in way over my head and was in serious trouble at one point. However, my parents didn't know, and I didn't approach them for help. I assumed they'd just judge me and start trying to "teach me lessons" that by then, reality had already well and truly taught me. My best friend at the time had more libertarian parents though, who, because he didn't feel the need to hide things from them, spotted much earlier that he was going too far with it, and he approached them for help with rehab. I envied him. He got through it all and was ready for uni at 18. I missed that chance, and my life never recovered since.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Reality cannot be defeated!!!!!

 

[INTPness]

If he's stupid enough to flaunt it like that, he'll be caught soon, and THAT will teach him more than anything you can do with your tedious 'moral lessons'.

I didn't use the money for that crap. If I did, I'd pass it off as stuff borrowed from a friend, or birthday gifts. I'd stash my money in the bank, though most of it was spent as quickly as it was earned on alcohol, more drugs, parties and takeaways. All of which were consumed and recovered from away from my parents' presence, when they thought I was innocently watching DVD's at my friend's house. I was a heavy drug user and dealer from the age of 14 to 19 and as far as my parents knew, I was just "a bit of a wag" and had "the odd toke of a spliff now and again but nothing serious".

I did get in way over my head and was in serious trouble at one point. However, my parents didn't know, and I didn't approach them for help. I assumed they'd just judge me and start trying to "teach me lessons" that by then, reality had already well and truly taught me.

I know someone who went through a very similar situation. It wasn't guilt trips or reverse psychology or anything like that which straightened him out. It was getting slammed to the ground, cuffed, vehicle impounded, and spending some time in the slammer that made him wake up. The cold hard reality snapped him out of it once and for all. We have to learn lessons like this sometimes. They are valuable.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

On topic:

In retrospect we need a balance of cool, calculative detachment and a healthy, optimistic outlook on life so as to appear as a wise bear once said "Juuuuusst right."

 

[proximo]

That was so totally all on topic. It was all proving me right about the relationship (or lack thereof) between cruelty and empathy

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I'm proud of you!

 

[proximo]

I'm proud of you!

Hmph. So you uh... should b... oh.

:whyioughtta: