[Fi] Fe blindness; Fi shortsightedness

[Udog]

You're welcome! I am your humble servant.

To my mind, the process should be as follows:

* Pang of emotional reaction
* Check the emotional reaction for reasonability and consonance with reality.

I agree with this. All instruments need to be calibrated to the source if they are going to measure with any accuracy.

Of all the types, ENTPs are the one type that routinely confounds me and my internal emotional resonances. Even *if* I have some sort of great insight to the emotional state of an ENTP, I still have to play it cautiously, because it never reflects in quite the same way as it resonates within me. Likewise, ENTPs can easily disrespect Fi simply by their questioning and prodding.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I sent the PM in response to your passive aggressive rep comment, and you replied, so yes, that is a PM. There was also that ridiculous accusation in the thread about types reactioning (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/25855-what-different-types-look-like-when-reacting-2.html). I'd like you to stop nitpicking me.

I've got to say OA, you do make many seemingly hostile and passive-aggressive comments about FJs. I try to not comment on them because I just chock it up to your experience, but you weren't willing to grant the same courtesy to others in these Fi threads. I otherwise think you are a very insightful poster with valuable contributions, but if I had read that thread and saw your comment, I would've asked the same question that protean asked.

 

[Synarch]

I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape.

I admit to not having the ability to automatically know what another person is feeling if I've never felt it or been in a similar situation. I understand that's not exactly what Fis/NFPs are saying, but that's the closest approximation I can wrap my head around at this point. I can ask, I can conjecture, I can speculate, I can watch their behaviors and body language and make educated guesses (which can be wrong!) but I don't know.

That's why I'm wondering if it's identification with feeling rather than knowledge. I don't presume that they are really claiming to know EXACTLY what someone else feels. I think it's just deeply felt maybe in some automatic way. I guess I don't feel as connected to people in that way. I feel a bit more aloof.

I agree with this. All instruments need to be calibrated to the source if they are going to measure with any accuracy.

Of all the types, ENTPs are the one type that routinely confounds me and my internal emotional resonances. Even *if* I have some sort of great insight to the emotional state of an ENTP, I still have to play it cautiously, because it never reflects in quite the same way as it resonates within me. Likewise, ENTPs can easily disrespect Fi simply by their questioning and prodding.

I think ENTP's may confound you because my emotions don't feel like things I feel rather more like things that are happening to me that I don't really feel comfortable with. A lot of my emotions are buried and only come out during dreams. Most of my natural expressed emotions are either anxiety or excitement. When I am more relaxed, I am very loving but it doesn't feel like something I feel deep inside. It feels more like warm milk.

 

[Synarch]

I've got to say OA, you do make many seemingly hostile and passive-aggressive comments about FJs. I try to not comment on them because I just chock it up to your experience, but you weren't willing to grant the same courtesy to others in these Fi threads. I otherwise think you are a very insightful poster with valuable contributions, but if I had read that thread and saw your comment, I would've asked the same question that protean asked.

Seems like more of the Fi vs. Fe divide in how conflicts are resolved:

1. Fi accuses and projects motives.
2. Fe tries to coerce eusocial behavior.

 

[onemoretime]

Seems like more of the Fi vs. Fe divide in how conflicts are resolved:

1. Fi accuses and projects motives.
2. Fe tries to coerce eusocial behavior.

I must say, there's this common perception that Fe is excessively coercive. I'd say it works best in a persuasive mold.

 

[Synarch]

I must say, there's this common perception that Fe is excessively coercive. I'd say it works best in a persuasive mold.

Persuasion until persuasion fails. Then coercion.

Think about Fe dominant types like ESFJ/ENFJ. They are often very directly coercive. Very little real persuasion at work.

I think this is what can make Fe so dangerous. Luckily, most Fe dominants do tend to take on board what is good for the group. So, they are often correct and justified. I rankle more at their effectiveness rather than their motive. I find them difficult to fend off.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Seems like more of the Fi vs. Fe divide in how conflicts are resolved:

1. Fi accuses and projects motives.
2. Fe tries to coerce eusocial behavior.

Number 2 - hardly. I'm not trying to force anyone into "eusocial behavior." But it's kind of double standard-ish to get mad when someone accuses your type of a certain behavior, then feel it is alright to do the same to another type. I guess that's Fe, do unto others as you would want done unto you. And I wonder... if FPs are so empathetic, why haven't they realized by now that FJs are annoyed by their accusations? Does their empathy not work over the internetz?

 

[Synarch]

Number 2 - hardly. I'm not trying to force anyone into "eusocial behavior." But it's kind of double standard-ish to get mad when someone accuses your type of a certain behavior, then feel it is alright to do the same to another type. I guess that's Fe, do unto others as you would want done unto you. And I wonder... if FPs are so empathetic, why haven't they realized by now that FJs are annoyed by their accusations? Does their empathy not work over the internetz?

This thing we keep calling "empathy" is radically subjective and particularized. Fi-style empathy often fails to account for the "big picture" which is accounted for by Fe. Fe-style empathy often fails to identify with the other.

Thinking this is the problem.

/my opinion

 

[Udog]

I think ENTP's may confound you because my emotions don't feel like things I feel rather more like things that are happening to me that I don't really feel comfortable with. A lot of my emotions are buried and only come out during dreams. Most of my natural expressed emotions are either anxiety or excitement. When I am more relaxed, I am very loving but it doesn't feel like something I feel deep inside. It feels more like warm milk.

I believe Qre:us summed it up nicely by saying that her emotions are always viewed from a third person perspective, whereas Fi views it from the first person perspective. So even when she's feeling them, she's not really feeling them.

So even if the first and third person views are seeing the same thing, and essentially agree, the experiences are so different that there's still a pretty big disconnect that must be bridged.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

This thing we keep calling "empathy" is radically subjective and particularized. Fi-style empathy often fails to account for the "big picture" which is accounted for by Fe. Fe-style empathy often fails to identify with the other.

Thinking this is the problem.

/my opinion

I hear Fe and "the group/big picture" mentioned often together. But I think every Fe user is different. I personally do best one-on-one and I identify with others on that basis. I don't know if this could be related to Enneagram, but I'm a sx/sp variant... i.e. I have the social instinct last. So social objectives are often not in the forefront of my mind.

 

[Synarch]

I believe Qre:us summed it up nicely by saying that her emotions are always viewed from a third person perspective, whereas Fi views it from the first person perspective. So even when she's feeling them, she's not really feeling them.

So even if the first and third person views are seeing the same thing, and essentially agree, the experiences are so different that there's still a pretty big disconnect that must be bridged.

For me, I feel like a little boat bouncing amongst the waves. The deep water contains my hidden emotional world. But, I can see it only dimly from above.

I think for more introverted types, they dive down deep regularly and spend less time floating on the sunlit surface. They see the life cycles of the submerged emotional world in better clarity and reality.

 

[Synarch]

I hear Fe and "the group/big picture" mentioned often together. But I think every Fe user is different. I personally do best one-on-one and I identify with others on that basis. I don't know if this could be related to Enneagram, but I'm a sx/sp variant... i.e. I have the social instinct last. So social objectives are often not in the forefront of my mind.

Perhaps, by "big picture" we should clarify as attempting at an objective recognition of the emotional needs of the other? Is this more accurate of Fe rather than Fi?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Perhaps, by "big picture" we should clarify as attempting at an objective recognition of the emotional needs of the other? Is this more accurate of Fe rather than Fi?

I suppose that could work. But I'll allow an Fi dom/aux to respond to see if they can relate to that as well.

 

[onemoretime]

I hear Fe and "the group/big picture" mentioned often together. But I think every Fe user is different. I personally do best one-on-one and I identify with others on that basis. I don't know if this could be related to Enneagram, but I'm a sx/sp variant... i.e. I have the social instinct last. So social objectives are often not in the forefront of my mind.

Is there a larger goal (such as the happiness of others) that you seek in the one-on-one interactions you have with people?

 

[Kalach]

J Fe users and P Fe users are going to be different in their sense of feeling as stable and authoritative, aren't they? Are they?

Same difference for J/P Fi, the J's are gong to be more into using personal feeling as motive and the P users are going to allow perception the privilege of guiding them. So TJs dismiss, FPs empathise, FJ's guide, and TPs... em, tell you what they think?


I dunno.

 

[Udog]

For me, I feel like a little boat bouncing amongst the waves. The deep water contains my hidden emotional world. But, I can see it only dimly from above.

I think for more introverted types, they dive down deep regularly and spend less time floating on the sunlit surface. They see the life cycles of the submerged emotional world in better clarity and reality.

I've always liked the deep ocean metaphor - it's fitting. It's easy for INFPs to explore the depths and ignore the surface, and ENTPs to do the opposite. It's not possible to focus on everything at once, as the ocean is pretty big.

From the depths, I may notice underwater currents that affect the surface directions, but I'm capable of missing the storms and winds that often have a larger affect on a surface dwelling boat.

 

[Synarch]

J Fe users and P Fe users are going to be different in their sense of feeling as stable and authoritative, aren't they? Are they?

Good point. I would assume J Fe users are more... purposeful? Consistent?

 

[Udog]

Perhaps, by "big picture" we should clarify as attempting at an objective recognition of the emotional needs of the other? Is this more accurate of Fe rather than Fi?

I bolded the objective recognition part, because I do tend to believe Fe is more objectively observant than Fi.

 

[Synarch]

I've always liked the deep ocean metaphor - it's fitting. It's easy for INFPs to explore the depths and ignore the surface, and ENTPs to do the opposite. It's not possible to focus on everything at once, as the ocean is pretty big.

From the depths, I may notice underwater currents that affect the surface directions, but I'm capable of missing the storms and winds that often have a larger affect on a surface dwelling boat.

Yeah, that makes me think about why I am so outwardly focused. My home life always felt unstable to me growing up, so I learned to always keep one eye out for danger. And, I also learned early on how to adapt by avoiding things coming for me or by trying to dodge through the world around me as it swooped in. I was rarely left alone to my own devices in any safe, consistent way. Also, since both my parents were extraverts I simply was not allowed to keep to myself, which leads to a sort of divided consciousness I find common in ENTP's (ever notice the prevalence of duality symbolism among ENTP's?). Being required to be involved with the world yet always keeping a part of ourselves back and hidden.

But, if you think about it. Keeping an eye on the horizon is what ENTP's do. We lose the fine distinctions in things. We lose the particulars, which is what our deep diving friends are so adept at. In the water you can only see what is immediately in front of you. And sometimes you are forced to locate what cannot be seen and only felt.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Is there a larger goal (such as the happiness of others) that you seek in the one-on-one interactions you have with people?

Hmmm... not really. I like discussing ideas with others and enjoying experiences with them, but I'm not thinking of any goal besides that.