[ESTP] ESTPs: are you vulnerable or insecure? How?

[SilkRoad]

This is something I wonder about simply because I find that people who appear exceptionally confident often turn out to be masking deep insecurities. And ESTPs do appear exceptionally confident.

I'm certainly not suggesting that all or even many ESTPs are deeply insecure - and obviously anyone of any type has their insecurities. But if the ESTPs or those who have been close to them would like to weigh in - I'd be curious as to how and why ESTPs are insecure, where you do have those vulnerabilities and fears.

Would it perhaps be in the area of feeling that you have a hard time understanding others' emotions, so you're afraid that your interpersonal skills might let you down unexpectedly? Something like that? Or am I way off?

Please do share if you feel like it.

 

[Kierva]

"You better be good at something because no one's going to hand shit to that ugly face of yours." - my inner critic

 

[SilkRoad]

"You better be good at something because no one's going to hand shit to that ugly face of yours." - my inner critic

Would you say that's more about your confidence in your capacity to succeed, or about how much people will like you?? Interesting!

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], I'd definitely like you to weigh in!

 

[Halla74]

This is something I wonder about simply because I find that people who appear exceptionally confident often turn out to be masking deep insecurities...

Sometimes this is the case, yes...

...And ESTPs do appear exceptionally confident.

This ESTP certainly does.

I'm certainly not suggesting that all or even many ESTPs are deeply insecure - and obviously anyone of any type has their insecurities. But if the ESTPs or those who have been close to them would like to weigh in - I'd be curious as to how and why ESTPs are insecure, where you do have those vulnerabilities and fears.

An interesting series of questions.
I'll try to answer them from my vantage point as "ESTP Me."

INSECURITIES:
None. I'm not kidding. I'm pretty shameless.
More accurately, I know my strengths and I capitaslize on them; I know my limitations and I minimize them while I work to improve them.
Whatever I do, I give it my best, and if that results in failure then I lick my wounds and try, try again.
Persistence is more important than skill, and skill just as important as raw talent.

VULNERABILITIES:
OK, I'm not being trite, seriously, mine are:
(1) Boredom
(2) Hunger
(3) Feeling "Stuck" as in not having options in my life, which is honestly why I am ALWAYS creating new options for myself, and thus mitigating this vulnerability.

FEARS:
None. Honestly.
I'm not afraid of dying, so I'm not afraid of anything.
I've been stressed to the edges of my wits enough times in my life to know that anything that hasn't killed me will pass, no matter how awful it is to bear at any moment.

Would it perhaps be in the area of feeling that you have a hard time understanding others' emotions, so you're afraid that your interpersonal skills might let you down unexpectedly? Something like that? Or am I way off?

Please do share if you feel like it.

The only person whose thoughts/emotions I've ever had a hard time understanding are those of my wife.
It caused a HUGE batch of disagreements between us in the past.
This is why we went to marriage counseling; that is where we were both encouraged to do "self discovery" and introduced us to MBTI.
But, all that aside, I never FELT like my interpersonal skills had let me down, because those same skills gave me so much success with everyone else in my life, and even with her albeit to some limited degree.
If I had to categorize how that process made me feel, it made glad that there was some amount of effort that was possible for her and I to both make in order to better understand each other, and get back to being happy as we always were.

I hope that makes sense.

My take on life is this:

"No matter what happens, give it your best shot. This is not a dress rehearsal!"



-Alex

P.S. If any follow-up questions feel free to ask, I'm an open book.

 

[SilkRoad]

P.S. If any follow-up questions feel free to ask, I'm an open book.

Thanks! I've known you somewhat for a while now, so most of this didn't come as a great surprise, and seems consistent with what I know of you.

It does make me wonder something else though. You say that you don't have insecurities. To be very honest, in some ways I find that hard to believe because I think virtually all human beings do. (Although it varies widely - some people are/become fundamentally insecure and it affects everything they do; many people have insecurities but are able to work with them and not be controlled by them.) But you know yourself best.

But - how do you see people who definitely do have insecurities, and maybe even acknowledge them directly? Do you see them as weak...or?

 

[Halla74]

Thanks! I've known you somewhat for a while now, so most of this didn't come as a great surprise, and seems consistent with what I know of you.

It's nice to hear I'm consistent. I strive to be, so thank you for that.

It does make me wonder something else though. You say that you don't have insecurities. To be very honest, in some ways I find that hard to believe because I think virtually all human beings do. (Although it varies widely - some people are/become fundamentally insecure and it affects everything they do; many people have insecurities but are able to work with them and not be controlled by them.) But you know yourself best.

I see your point.
I don't think we're terribly far from a common understanding though.
OK, let's see if I can wordsmith your response above into something that jives for both of us.

The first thing I'll do is re-quote a portion of your reply:

"...many people have insecurities but are able to work with them and not be controlled by them..."

This is closer to my reality.

Here's my next effort to close the gap:

Let's say my personal definition of "insecurities" equals "self doubting thoughts."
This being the case, the concept of insecurity is for the most part diminished in my life for two reasons:

(1) While ESTPs are deep THINKERS, we are more so people of ACTION.

(2) ESTPs think very, very quickly. So, any thought in my world, ANY THOUGHT, however "self-grandiose" OR "self-doubting" - is nothing more than one of many bursts of neurotransmitters that are bouncing around in my head at any given moment.

Thoughts are ephemeral to an ESTP at best, for if they linger they morph into CONCEPTS, and it is CONCEPTS that have potential to be chosen as the basis for ACTION.

But - how do you see people who definitely do have insecurities, and maybe even acknowledge them directly? Do you see them as weak...or?

I don't see people who admit to having insecurities as weak or anything negative.
I see them as people who for one reason or another doubt their own ability to accomplish "X" or be capable of "Y."
The only thing limiting themselves is the lack of having taken the time and effort needed to accomplish whatever it is they feel they are not able to do.
That is the case for all people, even ESTPs.

I'd like to close with one final clarifying thought.
I am not egotistical.
I am not pretentious.
I know that I am mortal.
I know that I am not perfect.
I know I have limitations.

BUT -

I know that if I apply myself, that even if I fail the first time, second time, or many times thereafter, that there is NOTHING I can't achieve if I am willing to apply myself, and harness the capabilities of those around me that I can unite for the sake of a common cause.

I am not an Army, but I can amass one if the stakes are high enough.



-Alex

 

[Anew Leaf]

It's nice to hear I'm consistent. I strive to be, so thank you for that.



I see your point.
I don't think we're terribly far from a common understanding though.
OK, let's see if I can wordsmith your response above into something that jives for both of us.

The first thing I'll do is re-quote a portion of your reply:

"...many people have insecurities but are able to work with them and not be controlled by them..."

This is closer to my reality.

Here's my next effort to close the gap:

Let's say my personal definition of "insecurities" equals "self doubting thoughts."
This being the case, the concept of insecurity is for the most part diminished in my life for two reasons:

(1) While ESTPs are deep THINKERS, we are more so people of ACTION.

(2) ESTPs think very, very quickly. So, any thought in my world, ANY THOUGHT, however "self-grandiose" OR "self-doubting" - is nothing more than one of many bursts of neurotransmitters that are bouncing around in my head at any given moment.

Thoughts are ephemeral to an ESTP at best, for if they linger they morph into CONCEPTS, and it is CONCEPTS that have potential to be chosen as the basis for ACTION.



I don't see people who admit to having insecurities as weak or anything negative.
I see them as people who for one reason or another doubt their own ability to accomplish "X" or be capable of "Y."
The only thing limiting themselves is the lack of having taken the time and effort needed to accomplish whatever it is they feel they are not able to do.
That is the case for all people, even ESTPs.

I'd like to close with one final clarifying thought.
I am not egotistical.
I am not pretentious.
I know that I am mortal.
I know that I am not perfect.
I know I have limitations.

BUT -

I know that if I apply myself, that even if I fail the first time, second time, or many times thereafter, that there is NOTHING I can't achieve if I am willing to apply myself, and harness the capabilities of those around me that I can unite for the sake of a common cause.

I am not an Army, but I can amass one if the stakes are high enough.



-Alex

This is (yet another) a great post. I so easily get bogged down by my mental loop that I easily talk myself out of worthwhile opportunities because I overthink things and fail in my head before I even try.

I am having a huge doubting moment right now over several issues and this especially:

I see them as people who for one reason or another doubt their own ability to accomplish "X" or be capable of "Y."
The only thing limiting themselves is the lack of having taken the time and effort needed to accomplish whatever it is they feel they are not able to do.

really strikes a chord within me. I was searching for a different perspective on my problem, and I have found it. I was giving in to defeat before I had even started a single battle.

Great thread [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION]! I shall watch it with great interest.

 

[Halla74]

This is (yet another) a great post.

Thank you very much.

I so easily get bogged down by my mental loop that I easily talk myself out of worthwhile opportunities because I overthink things and fail in my head before I even try.

When I was younger I used to also.
Then a few key events happened that made me realize that FAILURE is sometimes experienced on the road to SUCCESS.
What's the worst that happens if a guy asks a girl to go to the prom with him?
She says "No."
Is the guy dead?
NO.
Are there other girls in school who would make great dates to the prom?
YES.
Life goes on.
This is an extremely oversimplified example, but I hope it is illustrative of what really matters (1) TRYING, and (2) NOT GIVING UP IF YOUR FIRST PLAN FAILS.

<***Important Halla Disclaimer: I am NOT condoning SETTLING on LOVE; I am talking about a DATE to a COMMON SOCIAL EVENT, not a LIFELONG COMMITMENT. I will NEVER advocate that people settle for someone that is "Second Best" when they are looking for TRUE LOVE.***>


ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
Try to make a 3 point shot in basketball, and you fail.
Did you die?
NO.
Can you pick up the ball and try again?
YES.
With enough practive will you be nailing three point shots?
YES.
If you just give up and don't try after your initial failure will you ever make a 3 point shot?
NO.

I am having a huge doubting moment right now over several issues and this especially:

...really strikes a chord within me. I was searching for a different perspective on my problem, and I have found it. I was giving in to defeat before I had even started a single battle.

ALWAYS give your self THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.
There is enough in this world that will try to keep you down - DON'T HELP IT!
Our society is way too intolerant of failure.
Failure occurs sometimes when people engage in experimentation.
If Thomas Edison gave up every time one of his experiments failed, we would have far fewer gadgets to play with.

Great thread [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION]! I shall watch it with great interest.

In the meantime, you might want to write down a quick ist of the things you want on you new "Soon To Be Accomplished List." umpyouup:



-Alex

 

[redcheerio]

Reading a post from [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] feels like a rush of adrenaline and a high five, like as if we both just successfully surfed a huge wave or something.

 

[tinker683]

Reading a post from [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] feels like a rush of adrenaline and a high five, like as if we both just successfully surfed a huge wave or something.

+1

 

[Anew Leaf]

Reading a post from [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] feels like a rush of adrenaline and a high five, like as if we both just successfully surfed a huge wave or something.

I think we need to petition the game companies to make a [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] game.

 

[SilkRoad]

Reading a post from [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] feels like a rush of adrenaline and a high five, like as if we both just successfully surfed a huge wave or something.

+1000

 

[Halla74]

I am humbled.
Thank you for your kind words and sentiments [MENTION=13844]redcheerio[/MENTION], [MENTION=8485]tinker683[/MENTION], [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION]; and [MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION]; I sincerely appreciate them.
I wish you ALL great success in all that you do, believe it.

Keep the faith!



-Alex

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

From an outsider perspective, the chink in an ESTP's armor is their pride. The only time I've seen my two ESTP friends upset about anything was when their pride took a beating. Case one: a woman who got one over on him and the other one went out on a limb for a friend and the friend did not have his back when it came time to cover his. (again, they aren't usually upset about what happened, rather they're upset that they didn't see it coming or regret putting themselves out there). Here's the kicker: These things were publicly known among many people.

 

[tibby]

Ime, it's their lack of willingness to be insecure and vulnerable that is probably their biggest vulnerability. Don't know about other types but kind of like with eg I've seen in ESTJ. But with ESTPs I think power is the source to this, they want to be in control of themselves, they're highly aware of it. So if they let themselves be vulnerable... It would be giving power of themselves over to someone else.

 

[SilkRoad]

Ime, it's their lack of willingness to be insecure and vulnerable that is probably their biggest vulnerability. Don't know about other types but kind of like with eg I've seen in ESTJ. But with ESTPs I think power is the source to this, they want to be in control of themselves, they're highly aware of it. So if they let themselves be vulnerable... It would be giving power of themselves over to someone else.

Yes, I think you make a good point. With ESTJs I think this can extend to wanting to control others (not always of course, but sometimes it happens to an unhealthy extreme, even wanting to surround themselves with people who are easy to control.) I would guess that with ESTPs it can just be an extreme desire for autonomy - I wouldn't see them wanting to control others so much.

 

[Halla74]

From an outsider perspective...

This particular ESTP does not at all consider your perspective that of an "outsider."
I've sought your counsel many a time, and your advice to me has always been very insightful and spot on.
So, IMHO, you actually *UNDERSTAND* the nature of ESTP types, yet are not judgemental of them, which I sincerely appreciate.

...the chink in an ESTP's armor is their pride. The only time I've seen my two ESTP friends upset about anything was when their pride took a beating. Case one: a woman who got one over on him and the other one went out on a limb for a friend and the friend did not have his back when it came time to cover his. (again, they aren't usually upset about what happened, rather they're upset that they didn't see it coming or regret putting themselves out there). Here's the kicker: These things were publicly known among many people.

This is very insightful. Our pride is precious to us, believe it. We bust out asses everyday to polish the armor and reinforce it as we see fit to accomodate the needs of whatever madness we've decided to get into.

And, you are also correct that when we do put ourselves at risk for another, when things go the wrong way, our regret/resentment is most always directed at the fact that we totally read the situation wrong. Even if the person we were trying to help turned out to be a treacherous douchebag, we're harder on ourselves than we ever will be on them, because we have *HUGE* expectations of ourselves, and nothing commensurate with our expectations of others. That's not to say that we don't feel others are capable of a whole lot, that's not the case at all. It's more like our happiness is *SO* important to us that we'd rather not outsource its genesis to others because if they don't come through, we suffer our worst fate, and that is feeling stuck, unsatisfied, and mediocre.

One example from my own life, at one point someone I knew created a huge amount of drama and essentially had me convinced that they were being abused by someone they were involved with. Then, at the pont I decided to try and assist, they turned on me. The whole thing was a fucking disaster, and all three of us lost our jobs due to organizational ignorance of how such cases should be legally handled. But what did I do? I helped the person who turned on me find a new job, because they were incapable of doing so on their own in a timely manner, and they had a kid to feed. I found a better paying job a few weeks later too (Karma!). And then I proceeded to ruin the life of the aggressor by burying him in litigation. He's unemployed to this day. Don't fuck with a fucker.
The bigger point is that I was more upset with my own idiocy via intervening in the first place, than just being smart and staying out of it, than I was with the person who turned on me during my efforts to try and help them.
So, lesson learned.
MDP2525 hits the nail on the head once again!

Ime, it's their lack of willingness to be insecure and vulnerable that is probably their biggest vulnerability.

Hi Tibby! :hi:
Could you please elaborate on the blue/bolded/italicized portion of your statement above?
I'm having trouble understanding it.
My interpretation of that logic is as follows:

IF "lack of willingness to be insecure and vulnerable" IS a big WEAKNESS
THEN
BEING "willing to be insecure and vulnerable" IS a big STRENGTH

So, that being said, could you please explain to me WHY you conisder that: BEING "willing to be insecure and vulnerable" IS a big STRENGTH?

What added value, what benefit, what advantage does BEING "willing to be insecure and vulnerable" add to one's life?
This is the part I don't understand.
Looking forward to your response!

Don't know about other types but kind of like with eg I've seen in ESTJ. But with ESTPs I think power is the source to this, they want to be in control of themselves, they're highly aware of it.

We want to be in CONTROL OF OUR OWN DESTINY, and when we feel TRAPPED or LIMITED it sours us to the CORE, because it is totally against our nature to feel as such.

So if they let themselves be vulnerable... It would be giving power of themselves over to someone else.

Disagreed.
I'll tell you why.
"Vulnerable" to me means "Open."
I am VERY Open when it comes to my interpersonal relationships. (7w8 sx/so, go figure!)
Why? Because I don't want to waste time getting to know, or interacting, with a false shell of a person, some facade that they put on to meet and greet strangers and potential sociopaths.
I like "The Real Deal." For better or worse, I like people AS THEY ARE, bumps and scars included, inappropriate thoughts or ideas, whatever, I want to deal with REAL people.
So, likewise, I give people that same view of me, I am very consistent, here, IRL, in outer space, you name the locale, "ME is ME."
In my opinion, the "BENEFIT" of "lowering my shields" (which, you might refer to as allowing myself to be "vulnerable") is that it is perhaps the only way that I can have a chance to get something that is very important to me, and that is sincere exposure to the true selves of people I wish to, or must interact with in the course of my personal and professional life.
What happens sometimes?
Oh yeah, every once and again some fucker blasts you with a "photon torpedo" or a nice unexpected "fazer attack" when my shields are down. Way to go, asshole. You've proven to be an insincere, treacherous, piece of shit, I will now clobber the lights out of you and reduce your life to a mere stinking pile of filth, and then I will bounce happily along my way while at the same time kicking myself for letting something so stupid happen to me.
BUT - such interactions, regardless of how painful they ever are, do not EVER make me "run around like a hurt turtle in my shell" because I, like many other ESTPs, am EXTREMELY RESILIENT, and I would rather lick my wounds, drop my baggage, and move on with my life as I always have, rather than be mired in my own self-pity/self-deprication as a result of the toxic actions of some fucktard.

Are we saying the same thing differently? Or do you think I'm in outer space at this point?

Yes, I think you make a good point. With ESTJs I think this can extend to wanting to control others (not always of course, but sometimes it happens to an unhealthy extreme, even wanting to surround themselves with people who are easy to control.)

ESTJ = most likely type to turn into a control freak if they develop into an unhealthy person.
My Dad is a type-A hostile retired U.S. Army Colonel, I've seen it.
They bring control freak to a whole new level.
Thing is that even in the wake of all that none of us ever thought of him as an evil or bad person.
He was just "The big bad motherfucker in charge" and that was that.

I would guess that with ESTPs it can just be an extreme desire for autonomy - I wouldn't see them wanting to control others so much.

BINGO!!!!

 

[wolfy]

The point made about estp being upset that they didn't see it coming or regret putting themselves out there is interesting to me. I was thinking about my impact thread and which direction all that goes in. I feel like when you explain a topic or concept like that the locus of control can get lost in translation.

Get it?

 

[SilkRoad]

The point made about estp being upset that they didn't see it coming or regret putting themselves out there is interesting to me. I was thinking about my impact thread and which direction all that goes in. I feel like when you explain a topic or concept like that the locus of control can get lost in translation.

Get it?

Do you mean like, when you "put something out there" that you risk compromising it by partially letting go of it? I can kind of see that. It could almost result in a kind of...independent control-freakery. Not the kind of control-freakery that wants to control other people, but sort of an extreme version of "if you want to do something right, do it yourself."

 

[wolfy]

Do you mean like, when you "put something out there" that you risk compromising it by partially letting go of it? I can kind of see that. It could almost result in a kind of...independent control-freakery. Not the kind of control-freakery that wants to control other people, but sort of an extreme version of "if you want to do something right, do it yourself."

There is that angle as well. But I was thinking about, who do you do it for? In the extreme are others pawns in your show?