[ESTJ] ESTJs: criticism and imagination.

[MetalWounds]

ESTJs just take life far too seriously. It's actually humorous to watch.

 

[SahlainAnteth]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

My fiance is an ESTJ. He currently is working for the Fed. Gov. while prepping to attend law school. I would say that he does have creativity, but it's in very different areas than me, an SP.

For instance, he is an awesome planner. He sets up his day like a tactical plan and executes it marvelously. He's also a bit of a hopeless romantic and is amazing at plotting sneaky romantic surprises and writing love letters. I've also been told (by people who would know) that he writes a mean legal brief.

He tends to read non-fiction, however, and sees fiction as something that he should make himself read because he ought to. He's designated me as the one to tell him what he ought to read.

He's also said that one of the things he likes about me is my artistic nature, which he doesn't see in himself.

He does tend to be pretty uptight about formalities and appearances, and my casual attitude toward them tends to unnerve him. He is very kind and actually dislikes being confrontational so my bluntness is also difficult for him (not my bluntness with him so much as my bluntness with others).


EDIT: I forgot to mention that his favorite television show of all time is The West Wing (he doesn't even agree with the politics of it, he just loves a show that is centered around bureaucracy and the political system).

He also tends to be a perfectionist, with most of his criticism pointed squarely at himself. This can lead to depression when he's not getting the results that he wants, or when he's up against an impossible deadline he's set for himself, or just because of the fact that his expectations for himself are so unrealistically high that he doesn't realize everyone else won't care as much and will give him more slack than he allows himself.

 

[alcea rosea]

Now I found a good quotation about ESTJ's I do not get along with; it's a description of ESTJ with too little balance with auxiliary (perceptive) function. (Important part bolded even if it is not bolded in the original text.)

Gifts differing: Understanding Personality Types (Isabel Briggs Mayers with Peter B Myers, Davies-Black Publishing, Mountain View, California 1995).
p.86

”Extraverted thinkers construct a code of ruled embodying their basic judgments about the world. They aim to lie by those rules, and consider that other should as well. Any change in their ways requires a conscious change in the rules. If their perception is not good enough to show them, from time to time, how their rules should be broadened, the code will be so narrow and rigid that it becomes a tyranny not only to the thinkers but also to those around them, especially their families. Everything that conforms to the rules will be right; everything that violates them will be wrong; and everything not covered by them will be unimportant."

 

[wildcat]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

The someone did not ask to be corrected.

 

[dane]

The someone did not ask to be corrected.

Lock, stock and two smoking barrels.

 

[wildcat]

Lock, stock and two smoking barrels.

Thank you for the recommendation.
I shall consider it.
Immediately after I shall have recovered from the post traumatic stress induced by the previous movie thrill.
The Fight Club.

 

[elfinchilde]

my former boss (just quit my job) was an ESTJ. he didn't give me a good impression of ESTJs.

Overbearing, can't quite work with people (in the one year he took over, 3 out of 5 of us left the team), though he thinks he's open-minded and imaginative. :rolli: Kept telling me he was intelligent and open to ideas. :rolli:

They do have their strengths: competitive, driven, great marshallers.

But they need to work with people who obey. They get terrified of disobedience: everything must be right, and it must be 'their' way. Or else they get highly anxious, and try to impose control. Often harshly. They'd sit you down and talk for hours and hours pointing out your faults in a concerned tone.

Objectively: blind spot is that they can't work with NPs--and they'd accuse the NPs of not being able to see other perspectives.

Their blind spot is their perceived image of themselves, which may not tally with reality. The way to catch out an ESTJ is in the freudian slips they make when they panic--when things don't go their way.


To be fair: This is probably an unbalanced ESTJ which i've had the (mis)fortune of working with. Got so bad at the end that he was practically making veiled threats (masked as concern) that he knows of my 'legacy' in the previous places i worked in, and would speak to my future employers about me. never mind the fact that i had open job offers from more than one of these employers already, and they have a bad impression of him. :rolli:

Routine, conservatism, narrow-mindedness and regiment are poison to an INTP....

prior apologies to all the balanced, nice ESTJs out here.

 

[EJCC]

Time for this thread to be revived!

In response to the OP, I completely agree. We're more creative than most people give us credit for. Our creativity, I suppose, is more subtle and easier to miss, or at least focused in different areas. I also don't think we're quite that serious... maybe we just look serious because we tend to make friends with the silly crazy types. I know I spend a lot of my time with my friends simply shaking my head and laughing (specifically my ENFP friend and my INFJ friend)

elfinchilde: Man, there must be a lot of unbalanced ESTJs out there. This forum is filled with ESTJ ex/parent/boss horror stories where they act like corrupt dictators. I suppose that's what happens to ESTJs when they have issues. I don't, really, in comparison to some, so I'm not like that. But still. It boggles the mind to imagine just how many scary people like that are out there.

I think ESTJs have very strong expectations of how things are/ should be, and only really notice/pay attention when things break out of those mental representations. I can also see this playing out in my ESTJ friend's friendships. She has friends she treats as younger siblings and friends she treats as wild/weird diversions (I'm in this group). I've wanted to break out of this "weird" distinction and create a more sharing friendship with her, but she's very uncomfortable with forging new limits for our friendship, and eventually I had to drop that hope.

This quote really strikes me, because my friendships are a bit like this, too. I wonder if that's a type-related trait or not. And Colors: If your friend is like me, it isn't that she's scared of "forging new limits" on your friendship. It's that she's scared of opening up to you. By forming fairly shallow friendships, she doesn't have to deal with anyone's emotional outbursts, which makes everything easier and a lot more pleasant. But by going to that next level, she's probably going to have to talk about her feelings at some point, and it sucks to talk about your feelings when you have no patience for them (I know that when I get emotional, I get mad about it and think "Why am I doing this? This is completely unwarranted!" and try to get rid of it... usually failing).

 

[burkeus]

Can someone here please describe "others" in more complete detail? Thanks.

 

[Cimarron]

My younger sister is probably an ESTJ. The bad: I don't talk to her much, so I get along well enough with her, though we never have anything to talk about. We kind of see things in the same light, though. The rest of my family talks with her and spends more time with her, and they all say she comes off as rude and critical, even though she doesn't intend to be. They say she doesn't notice she's doing it. My family is all ST's and SJ's.

The good: She is very supportive of the people she cares about. When you're feeling down, she'll be there for you, and does a great job of keeping your spirits up.

 

[burkeus]

Thank you for your absolutely clear, concise, predictable, straightforward, non-devisive, outrageous, concrete, jack-in-the-box "answers" to the problems that I've laid out in my post(s)! NOT!

It doesn't matter anyway. I'm pretty sure you don't give a damn about my predicament. What seems to matter to you more is the shape of the world economy, waving your rainbow flag and sharing your wonderful gossip.

Is there anybody out there?

 

[INTJMom]

Thank you for your absolutely clear, concise, predictable, straightforward, non-devisive, outrageous, concrete, jack-in-the-box "answers" to the problems that I've laid out in my post(s)! NOT!

It doesn't matter anyway. I'm pretty sure you don't give a damn about my predicament. What seems to matter to you more is the shape of the world economy, waving your rainbow flag and sharing your wonderful gossip.

Is there anybody out there?

What's the question, Luv?

 

[Colors]

Dude.

I can't seem to find any inquiry that you made in this thread 'cept this one:

Can someone here please describe "others" in more complete detail? Thanks.

I have no idea what "others" you are asking about. Use the quote function. It is your friend.

 

[Cimarron]

Thank you for your absolutely clear, concise, predictable, straightforward, non-devisive, outrageous, concrete, jack-in-the-box "answers" to the problems that I've laid out in my post(s)! NOT!

It doesn't matter anyway. I'm pretty sure you don't give a damn about my predicament. What seems to matter to you more is the shape of the world economy, waving your rainbow flag and sharing your wonderful gossip.

Is there anybody out there?

I didn't respond because I don't know the answer to your question. I could have said "I don't know", but you would have been no better off. I hope you find out, though.

 

[Colors]

I still don't know if I get where this "critical" thing is coming from. Everyone's critical sometimes; in fact, ESTJs seem to limit it to realms in which they consider themselves an authority. And out of a loyalty to a environment.

This can come off as hurtful because they don't always provide the complimentary counterpoint. (Because everyone *should* do their best and have a duty to this.) This kind of also makes ESTJs awesome though- driven to accomplish all they can. But they beat themselves up too much over not doing more.

This quote really strikes me, because my friendships are a bit like this, too. I wonder if that's a type-related trait or not. And Colors: If your friend is like me, it isn't that she's scared of "forging new limits" on your friendship. It's that she's scared of opening up to you. By forming fairly shallow friendships, she doesn't have to deal with anyone's emotional outbursts, which makes everything easier and a lot more pleasant. But by going to that next level, she's probably going to have to talk about her feelings at some point, and it sucks to talk about your feelings when you have no patience for them (I know that when I get emotional, I get mad about it and think "Why am I doing this? This is completely unwarranted!" and try to get rid of it... usually failing).

Thanks for being so helpful. I think you're right. The pushing, melodramatic approach doesn't go over too well with ESTJs I think.

Yeah. Feelings suck. That's how my T-dominant peeps get along. (I'm joking but also being honest. They're scary.)

 

[Valiant]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible.

This is the part about SJ's that makes me go haywire If I get criticism, I want motivation for it and I want it in my face, without sugarcoating. If something that's meant as criticism comes out in that way, it just sounds like you are groveling before me to later stab me in the back (talking about it in a straight up manner with someone else).

Although there are actually nice ESTJ's out there, I mostly go crazy by ESTJ mannerisms. The only (nice) one I know moved to Oslo, Norway a year ago, though. Since you like Star Wars, and seem to be different at first glance, you have a massive headstart

 

[EJCC]

This is the part about SJ's that makes me go haywire If I get criticism, I want motivation for it and I want it in my face, without sugarcoating. If something that's meant as criticism comes out in that way, it just sounds like you are groveling before me to later stab me in the back (talking about it in a straight up manner with someone else).

Although there are actually nice ESTJ's out there, I mostly go crazy by ESTJ mannerisms. The only (nice) one I know moved to Oslo, Norway a year ago, though. Since you like Star Wars, and seem to be different at first glance, you have a massive headstart

I'm not sure about other ESTJs, but I "sugarcoat" my criticism because I instinctively try to use the golden rule, and I take blunt criticism really, really badly. And really, really personally.

ESTJ mannerisms, you say? Like gestures, or what? I'm curious now! (The only physical ESTJ sign I know of is that often when they walk somewhere, they walk briskly and as if they're on a mission.)

 

[Cimarron]

Yeah, we should probably try to keep this thread out of the area of negativity. The discussion can be very helpful.

 

[INTJMom]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

I am beginning to think that every type is misunderstood by some other types.
Just as in our everyday lives we can be misunderstood by others for whatever reason.


I am an INTJ female.
I have butted heads with every ESTJ female I have ever known!
I cannot get along with them for an extended period length of time.

However, ESTJ men I get along with just fine.
Ha ha! I think I just realized why!!
I know that ESTJ men are stubborn, so I usually just let the have their way.
And when I say usually, I mean always, except for one time a couple of weeks ago.
But the women, I guess I'm not so intimidated by, so I guess I will push back.
Ha ha! That's so funny!
So if I want to get along with ESTJ women, I have to let them have their way. Check.

 

[Qre:us]

Question...

What makes an ESTJ go soft? What 'melts' them, allows one to move past their tough exterior?