[ESTJ] ESTJs: criticism and imagination.

[JediM05]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

 

[autumn]

I do not think that ESTJs have no imagination. I think a person of any type can be very imaginitive, though the exact way they may use their imagination and creativity may definitely differ by type.

About ESTJs appearing critical...this is a difficult one. I wonder if ESTJs in particular tend to be quite comfortable with voicing their opinions, being in leadership positions, pointing out to people what they should be doing and how, and don't beat around the bush. Even if this is not meant as "critical" in a negative way, it can certainly come across that way, to certain other types in particular. I am a sensitive NF type who sometimes feels this way, and I wonder if any other NFs have had similar experiences.

One thing that helps me is to remember that there are times when people are coming across as critical and may not be trying to do so on purpose. Different types have their own ways of "trying to help", but to other types this message of "I am trying to help you!" gets lost in translation and comes across as "I am criticizing you!"

JediM05, I am really glad you are here. I think we can all learn a lot and grow in understanding with these kinds of conversations.

 

[GZA]

My dad is generally nice about things, but he is also very firm in things, and likes to go into detail. For example, today I brought up something from school and he explained it in great detail... although he wasn't really "nice" about it, more "firm", like I said.

Sometimes he is, for lack of a better term, apeshit when it comes to critism and correction. For example, upon hearing that my math mark is 56%, he goes insane and paces and near-yells at me for having a bad mark. He is so overreacting... its unbeivable. I know that isn't a good mark, but he already knows I'm trying to pass, and he knows I'll go to the ends of the earth to make sure I pass. He knows why I want to at least pass so much too -so I don't have to do math again. Still, he insist on the best when it isn't needed, and even when the best is done (such as the 92% on my last anthropology test) it is not met with the praise you'd expect based on his reaction to low grades.

As far as imagination goes, its one thing to appreciate imagination, and its another to actually have it. Enjoying something imaginative isn't the same as having imagination. My dad likes some imaginative things, but himself has little imagination, and I think he knows that. I guess in general though, people with imagination will tend to enjoy more imaginative things, even if they arn't doing the imagining themselves.

 

[ptgatsby]

I think the comment normally refers to creative problem solving... which I have to agree with the general view that ESTJs are not creative problem solvers. I've worked with quite a few ESTJ PMs and while they are impressive in their own right, they are far better suited to projects and problems that require force of will rather than creative or indirect problem solving. It is really difficult to get them to change their views or methods half way through, no matter what evidence is presented. On the other hand, when giving them a directive to change their path and execute the new method, they don't even blink. I found that pretty impressive and strangely contradictory.

I have also seen them flounder in strategic positions (promoted from PM in technical projects to strategic or business devleopment). Both collaboration (peer to peer) and strategic planning (elusive to tangible rather than tangible to actual) are what I see as their workplace weaknesses.

I find them plenty creative and imaginative in life in general... but certainly less abstract which comes to problems, which is how I see them.

 

[disregard]

My ESTJ best friend is pretty creative, I think it's the entrepreneur in her that really pushes her to be that way. She's inventive with her humor.. she makes me fall to the floor laughing when I am being grumpy. It's total S humor though--she depends on images and sounds and not on wit, but it is just as worthy of a laugh.

 

[Camelopardalis]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

This is funny. As far as fictions go, I generally dislike fantasy (But I do love SW and HP to bits), or fiction in general, and they say NT's like fiction. I like non-fiction, especially on science, psychology and philosophy. Maybe I'm just the odd one out.

 

[miss fortune]

my best friend is an ESTJ She can be critical, but she reserves it for times that I genuinely deserve to be critiqued (which is all too often I'm afraid! ) and at other times lets things slide- like my spelling and grammar errors!

I would say that she's creative- not in the traditional artsy crafty way, but if she wants something she'll come up with a way to get it. She works for the EPA doing site visits and analyzing situations- she has had to creatively explain certain concepts to some pretty dense people in the past and has always held off criticizing them to thier faces (though she vents about what idiots they are to me on the phone afterwords! )

edit- this chick also LOVED Star Wars and Lord of the Rings- she once drug me downstairs when we lived in the dorms to show me a door by the fireplace that she said looked like the door to Mooria

 

[Totenkindly]

The one male ESTJ I knew, I met because he was immersed in organizing Star Trek events in Atlanta. He was heavily into SciFi. He came across as very direct and blunt, very critical of stupidity in process management/procedure, and he also was into some of the sciences. A smart guy. His "creativity" was still very structured... he did graphic design and it was all clean but linear/balanced work suitable for serious material, not artsy stuff.

He also loved to laugh and was pretty carnal in some ways. Just hated not being in control.

The women ESTJs I know are more practical and often end up in management of some sort. They were more inclined to look at fantasy/scifi and be indifferent to it, if anything... like, "What's the point?" I'm curious if this is a trend across gender: Men have their hobbies, women have their friendships.

 

[Colors]

Hmmm, judging by the ESTJs I've known, I wouldn't say they're *that* critical. (But this might be because I am incredibly critical myself.)

And ESTJs can be big fans of humor and sci-fi. Certainly, I have an ESTJ friend who is a fan of both. And used to subject me )) to long, long jokes (like the one about the guy who wanted to know a monk's secret?) and retellings of smart sci-fi concepts.

My dad is generally nice about things, but he is also very firm in things, and likes to go into detail. For example, today I brought up something from school and he explained it in great detail... although he wasn't really "nice" about it, more "firm", like I said.

Sometimes he is, for lack of a better term, apeshit when it comes to critism and correction. For example, upon hearing that my math mark is 56%, he goes insane and paces and near-yells at me for having a bad mark. He is so overreacting... its unbeivable. I know that isn't a good mark, but he already knows I'm trying to pass, and he knows I'll go to the ends of the earth to make sure I pass. He knows why I want to at least pass so much too -so I don't have to do math again. Still, he insist on the best when it isn't needed, and even when the best is done (such as the 92% on my last anthropology test) it is not met with the praise you'd expect based on his reaction to low grades.

This exactly describes my relationship with my ESTJ father for the longest time. I think ESTJs have very strong expectations of how things are/ should be, and only really notice/pay attention when things break out of those mental representations. I can also see this playing out in my ESTJ friend's friendships. She has friends she treats as younger siblings and friends she treats as wild/weird diversions (I'm in this group). I've wanted to break out of this "weird" distinction and create a more sharing friendship with her, but she's very uncomfortable with forging new limits for our friendship, and eventually I had to drop that hope.

 

[alcea rosea]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

You are then well balanced ESTJ.

I am in trouble with one ESTJ who is not very balanced type and I have really problem with the overly strong Te. This person orders and arranges people's things, stuff and life without asking if the other people even need help. This person also looks down everybody who doesn't think that organizing is the most important thing in the world.

On the other hand, I do know another ESTJ who is more balanced. This ESTJ organizes things but does it by considering others too. I get along with her nicely.

So, it depends how strong Te the ESTJ is and how s/he has learned to consider others.

 

[Zergling]

For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible.

Even if it is done "as nice as possible", unless you are correcting something like a math problem's wrong answer, this can still come up unfriendly. the other person will have built up a different set of information which, even if the end result isn't the most "correct" one, they will still have some information to offer or a way to get to that result that might involve an unusual method that is useful somewhere else.

 

[Priam]

From my experience, the worst thing about an (unbalanced) ESTJ is the rigid inability to see special cases and grey areas in places already considered "figured out". Massive blindspots leading to anger, rigidity and bullheaded attempts to make the person or situation conform to how their definition of "the world" works.

The person I'm modeling this on should not be taken as any balanced type of individual, however, and an unbalanced INTP has some extraordinarily distasteful behaviors as well. They're just different. And I admit the unhealthy ENTJ behaviors piss me off a little more than most others...

 

[Totenkindly]

From my experience, the worst thing about an (unbalanced) ESTJ is the rigid inability to see special cases and grey areas in places already considered "figured out". Massive blindspots leading to anger, rigidity and bullheaded attempts to make the person or situation conform to how their definition of "the world" works.

yes, the control issue. That was *always* where I would butt up against them. I can't tell you how many times I said, "Yes, I know what you want, and what the ideal process should be... but here are the options you actually DO get... and you are KILLING yourself by not being realistic here. you need to ease up and accept the parameters you've been given."

iow, the situation was gray; and in their desire for b/w, they were just hurting themselves and others by jamming the square pegs into the round holes over and over.

 

[FDG]

I do think ESTJs have a fair imagination, or at least are generally interested in pursuits associated with imaginative figures; although I have yet to know one which is not critical. Being nice while being critical does not make one acritical: indeed the opposite of critical is complimentary, and if I have to judge the ESTJs I know on this scale they definitely fall on the critical side (which is a strenght in the fact that they are very thorough in their work, a weakness in the fact that they depress other people's motivation with criticalness)

 

[disregard]

Yes.. ESTJs always have to one-up you.

This has been how we do things for 20 years:

Me: *does something*
My ESTJ best friend: It would have been better if it was done like this.
Me: But that's how I did it..
ESTJ with slight annoyance in tone of voice: No you didn't! You see.. this is how you do it.
Me: Fine, you win. You know everything.
ESTJ: *is happy*

or

Me: *makes declarative statement*
ESTJ: No, because [something completely unrelated, but sounds good]
Me: FORGET IT!

 

[FDG]

Yes.. ESTJs always have to one-up you.

This has been how we do things for 20 years:

Me: *does something*
My ESTJ best friend: It would have been better if it was done like this.
Me: But that's how I did it..
ESTJ with slight annoyance in tone of voice: No you didn't! You see.. this is how you do it.
Me: Fine, you win. You know everything.
ESTJ: *is happy*

or

Me: *makes declarative statement*
ESTJ: No, because [something completely unrelated, but sounds good]
Me: FORGET IT!

Well, now imagine how an ENTJ would react if he was in your position, and then you have a picture of the typical interaction between me and an ESTj. Not something I'm proud of, honestly...

 

[runvardh]

With that situation I've had times where I'd think "bugger off and entertain yourself elsewhere!" while I end up really saying "fine, do it yourself!" then walking off.

Edit: Actually, in more recent situations I've replied with "And?" then kept doing what I was doing. One of those situations resulted in my tormentor smiling and replying with "I like you".

 

[theshadow]

my reactions with estj's is uhmmm rough. I dont even react to estj's anymore I literrally just laugh at them.... and they HATE that :steam:. seriously... I do like them they just really, really dont like me. and now for laughs and giggles

me: hey you, how are you
estj: Im Find. why are you asking
me: because I can and I like to talk to people
estj: I dont like you
me: hahahha cute
estj:that wasnt funny
me: now im roaring with laughter, your right, its wasn't, im just laughing at you
estj: we are going to have a some problems
Me: and?

and I still to this day I have no problems with that girl.. who still hates me


edit : I would like to add that she is very creative in her own way. its just not creative on my scale, she like to do the same things over and over. such as glitter

 

[sui generis]

seriously... I do like them they just really, really dont like me.

Oh? Why's that?

I dont even react to estj's anymore I literrally just laugh at them.... and they HATE that

Oh.

Do you know anyone, of ANY type, who likes being laughed at apropos of nothing?

 

[theshadow]

Oh? Why's that?

Do you know anyone, of ANY type, who likes being laughed at apropos of nothing?

that was a bit of a rant against one specific estj. most of them are fine . this specific one however sees no reason to respect me, and doest like the fact that when she confronts me I have no problem standing up to her