E's and I's Listening Skills

[Gen]

Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

(Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)

I haven't found this to be true at all either. What I have found is that N's tend to listen and get involved in personal discussion way more intimately than S's. S's like some in my family and my room mates, they tend to stay on the surface of issues rather than getting at the heart of things. You know, like disecting the concept that underlines the issues; that's N stuff.

N's understand you easier, that's not really the same thing. The most attentive listener I know is an INFP. He just listens and chips in when you leave him room to. My sister (one of those famed ENFJ listeners) won't necessarily wait for you to stop and once she's going you have to fight to get back to her listening. I see that as the introvert is the better listener even if my sister interprets better than he does.

Thats not what I mean. In a conversation about recent events in your life, where something is causing stress or whatnot, an N is more likely to listen to what happened and get into why it happened, the psychology of the other person involved, the ethics of your options, etc. An S is more likely, in my experience to tell you a story about when something like that happened to her, or why she wouldn't let that happen, or if that's socially unacceptable because its a really upsetting event, leave it at "I'm sorry, I hope things get better". Its not a case of understanding or not.

Also, if you just want someone to stare at you while you blather on, how do you know they're listening?

Kidding. I see your point, being interupted is annoying. It doesn't mean they're not listening; it really, really doesn't. It's just that they're bubbling over with thoughts from what you've said already and how can you move on in the conversation if you haven't cleared up this part yet?

Sometimes, if you know you need to get to a certain point before they will know enough to contribute, you can tell them: "wait until I finish, because this is important".

You have to respect someone elses approach in order to get respect for yours. (And part of respecting someone elses approach is actually not expecting them to do it your way )

 

[Xander]

and get into why it happened, the psychology of the other person involved, the ethics of your options, etc.

That's what I mean, they get into the context part which is what you want to discuss.

Versus

An S is more likely, in my experience to tell you a story about when something like that happened to her, or why she wouldn't let that happen, or if that's socially unacceptable because its a really upsetting event, leave it at "I'm sorry, I hope things get better". Its not a case of understanding or not.

The story is supposed to be a concrete example. If you watch two Ss argue it's often a whole barrage of specific examples going back and forth. It's quite interesting as usually an N is the best judge as they can build a picture of all the examples being thrown about and declare the de facto winner

Also, if you just want someone to stare at you while you blather on, how do you know they're listening?

My cat listens okay. Just cause you're a heathen!!

Kidding. I see your point, being interupted is annoying. It doesn't mean they're not listening; it really, really doesn't. It's just that they're bubbling over with thoughts from what you've said already and how can you move on in the conversation if you haven't cleared up this part yet?

Me thinks you're t-ing this bit. Listening is not always about fixing things... sometimes it's just about the listening. In such cases an introvert rules.

Plus have you not gotten annoyed at some bubbly N trying to tangent off before you got to the crux of the subject? Personally I hate it when people jump the gun and think they've heard enough when I've got stuff which I feel is important yet to say. Mind you I also know that importance is subjective and also how the hell are they to know I've got this important information before I tell them?

Sometimes, if you know you need to get to a certain point before they will know enough to contribute, you can tell them: "wait until I finish, because this is important".

As you do with introverts. The point being is will the extrovert find it as easy to "back seat" their bubbling idea whilst they listen or is it more likely that they no longer hear you and are just waiting to be allowed to explode?
(that's not a leading question btw, just something that occurred to me from some of the ESs I've known).

You have to respect someone elses approach in order to get respect for yours. (And part of respecting someone elses approach is actually not expecting them to do it your way )

That's a fallacy actually and very chicken and the egg. Respect is given and received simultaneously and independently. One does not impact on the other in any direct relationship.

The point is that if I want someone to listen, not to converse but just to listen by itself, then I talk to introverts. If I want motivating or sorting or compassion or any kind of feedback then I'm more likely to go to an extrovert. (That's not a hard rule obviously other wise I wouldn't surround myself with extroverts so much...)

 

[Totenkindly]

So do you want a response, Xander... or do you just want people to listen?

 

[Xander]

So do you want a response, Xander... or do you just want people to listen?

If I were a paranoid person I'd be asking if you were serious.

You know the INTP thing, we don't talk lots so when we think we have a point then yes we do like other's to listen.

Anyhow have you never just wanted to say something to someone without them feeling like they should respond or you bracing yourself for their response?

 

[Totenkindly]

If I were a paranoid person I'd be asking if you were serious.

Would I ever joke with you?

*get out screwdriver, screw with Xander's head*

You know the INTP thing, we don't talk lots so when we think we have a point then yes we do like other's to listen.

Hmmm, what are you like IRL? You talk a lot here when you post.
(You remind me of Sub in a lot of ways in your delivery style.)

I guess it depends on what exactly these "interruptions" look like. I don't like constantly being side-tracked when I am trying to verbalize, or have someone constantly try to finish my sentences... but at the same time, if it's conversation that pushes things forward, I'm perfectly okay with that.

I talk to some extroverts, and very few of them are constantly interrupting, most are mature enough to know to listen and respond when appropriate... or how to minimize their interrupts.

Anyhow have you never just wanted to say something to someone without them feeling like they should respond or you bracing yourself for their response?

Yes, sometimes I just want to get it out and not have to worry about how to frame it or present it for someone else, I want them to take that upon themselves to help me.

But I thought Gen made some points worth mulling over.

 

[Gen]

Me thinks you're t-ing this bit. Listening is not always about fixing things... sometimes it's just about the listening. In such cases an introvert rules.

I know listening isn't about fixing things, its about listening... it's about being compassionate... wait a minute, are you an F!?!? This is the thing, I rarely just need someone to listen to me, I want to discuss it and get some thoughts on it. I've learned that some people do just want to be heard; and I find it very difficult to stop myself from giving advice.

Plus have you not gotten annoyed at some bubbly N trying to tangent off before you got to the crux of the subject?

Of course I have silly, that's why I said that I agree being interrupted is annoying.

Personally I hate it when people jump the gun and think they've heard enough when I've got stuff which I feel is important yet to say. Mind you I also know that importance is subjective and also how the hell are they to know I've got this important information before I tell them?

As you do with introverts. The point being is will the extrovert find it as easy to "back seat" their bubbling idea whilst they listen or is it more likely that they no longer hear you and are just waiting to be allowed to explode?
(that's not a leading question btw, just something that occurred to me from some of the ESs I've known).

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I doubt that they've just stopped listening. They're E's remember. What happens in your head, as an I is that you get a bunch of info and need to process it before you move on. That's not what happens in theirs. They'll take it all in and then process it as it comes out when you're done talking.

The one caveat I have is that none of this can be applied to all E's, of course. You may have unhealthy E's, selfish E's, stressed E's, overly familiar E's, or any number of reasons that they will actually be horrible listeners. I maintain a person is not a bad listener just because they are an extrovert.

That's a fallacy actually and very chicken and the egg. Respect is given and received simultaneously and independently. One does not impact on the other in any direct relationship.

Yes it does. You may find yourself in a situation where you are butting heads with someone and it's become a lockhold where no one will give in. Annoying as it is, sometimes the best thing to do is hold out the olive branch and be extremely respectful. This will help soften the other person, and give them no reason to continue being overtly disrespectful or hold to their guns so hard. It doesn't always work, but I never chalk up a situation as impossible until I've tried it.

The point is that if I want someone to listen, not to converse but just to listen by itself, then I talk to introverts. If I want motivating or sorting or compassion or any kind of feedback then I'm more likely to go to an extrovert. (That's not a hard rule obviously other wise I wouldn't surround myself with extroverts so much...)

You may be right, extrovert. That's why I don't surround myself with introverts. I need people around me who will talk; god knows I'm not gonna!

 

[Gen]

But I thought Gen made some points worth mulling over.

:hi:

Thank you Jennifer!

 

[mippus]

Hm, what about another generalisation: I's are so selfabsorbed they are not interested in others?
I find it hard to see listeningskills linked to type. At least in general. Indeed, you'll probably find more empathic listening with F's, more interactive listening with E's, more... Listening has many forms (as you explained above)...

 

[Gen]

Hm, what about another generalisation: I's are so selfabsorbed they are not interested in others?
I find it hard to see listeningskills linked to type. At least in general. Indeed, you'll probably find more empathic listening with F's, more interactive listening with E's, more... Listening has many forms (as you explained above)...

Exactly! Thank you! The point is, just because they don't do it your way, doesn't mean they aren't doing it. You have to appreciate who they are and how they do things, rather than think that, for example, "listening is X because when I listen I do X."

 

[Xander]

Would I ever joke with you?

*get out screwdriver, screw with Xander's head*

Well yes and no. Yes cause you would joke but I'm wondering what's behind the joke, where the links come from etc.

Hmmm, what are you like IRL? You talk a lot here when you post.
(You remind me of Sub in a lot of ways in your delivery style.)

Tall, dark and handsome... why?



IRL I'm pretty much as I am here except a lot more brief basically because I get feedback before my head starts to explode into tangents, retractions, reinforcements and so on. This text based malarkey is too damn slow some days.

Of course other days I just shut the lot out and hide

I guess it depends on what exactly these "interruptions" look like. I don't like constantly being side-tracked when I am trying to verbalize, or have someone constantly try to finish my sentences... but at the same time, if it's conversation that pushes things forward, I'm perfectly okay with that.

Of course it depends.. always in context.

I talk to some extroverts, and very few of them are constantly interrupting, most are mature enough to know to listen and respond when appropriate... or how to minimize their interrupts.

That was as polarised as INTP are socially inept. I'm just typing not describing with accuracy. It's more of "this type is more prone to" even if it's only a 1% difference.

Yes, sometimes I just want to get it out and not have to worry about how to frame it or present it for someone else, I want them to take that upon themselves to help me.

Well sometimes I want a discussion about something like whether it's more appropriate to consider X value more important than Y or if I'm just forgetting Z and in my circle the introverts tend to consider it more carefully where as the extroverts will tell you how simple it is and ask why you asked (which is not the kind of conversational direction which they often have patience for).

But I thought Gen made some points worth mulling over.

That's the thing with me though, I most often absorb really quickly. Oh and I have a boring job and a slow internet connection... I consider quite thoroughly what people say.... I just don't often convey it well

 

[Xander]

I know listening isn't about fixing things, its about listening... it's about being compassionate... wait a minute, are you an F!?!? This is the thing, I rarely just need someone to listen to me, I want to discuss it and get some thoughts on it. I've learned that some people do just want to be heard; and I find it very difficult to stop myself from giving advice.

Who said I was thinking of me? I know some Fs you know.

Of course I have silly, that's why I said that I agree being interrupted is annoying.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I doubt that they've just stopped listening. They're E's remember. What happens in your head, as an I is that you get a bunch of info and need to process it before you move on. That's not what happens in theirs. They'll take it all in and then process it as it comes out when you're done talking.

Not always true. The people I'd class as a-typical extroverts (ie stuck on output) tend not to listen at all, yes their representative of a very small group but as far as I see it the pattern shows through most extroverts. Hence how part way through telling an extrovert your trouble they may well declare you an idiot and not wait to tell you either

The one caveat I have is that none of this can be applied to all E's, of course. You may have unhealthy E's, selfish E's, stressed E's, overly familiar E's, or any number of reasons that they will actually be horrible listeners. I maintain a person is not a bad listener just because they are an extrovert.

That is true. However what type would you say a person was if they stayed quiet and listened as a preference? E or I?

Yes it does. You may find yourself in a situation where you are butting heads with someone and it's become a lockhold where no one will give in. Annoying as it is, sometimes the best thing to do is hold out the olive branch and be extremely respectful. This will help soften the other person, and give them no reason to continue being overtly disrespectful or hold to their guns so hard. It doesn't always work, but I never chalk up a situation as impossible until I've tried it.

That's not direct as some will take your actions as grovelling and a sign of weakness, stepping in for the kill. Giving is sometimes mistaken for an agreement of a return on the investment, such is societal norm but not a rule.

You may be right, extrovert. That's why I don't surround myself with introverts. I need people around me who will talk; god knows I'm not gonna!

Let me see, the missus, by close mate Mike, Jon, Dave... ... Ellen, Shell... nah I completely ignore extroverts

My family are extroverts. It doesn't stop my favourite relative being the INFJ who rarely calls or visits and tends to forget things like calling back, birthdays etc.

I like extroverts and extroverted things (like cars) because of the feedback and because it's entertaining. But I also like coffee, I still wouldn't use it as shampoo.

 

[Dom]

Well sometimes I want a discussion about something like whether it's more appropriate to consider X value more important than Y or if I'm just forgetting Z and in my circle the introverts tend to consider it more carefully where as the extroverts will tell you how simple it is and ask why you asked (which is not the kind of conversational direction which they often have patience for).

Do I? And no you can't use the trump card, of saying there are exceptions, if you want to make generalisations about Es go for it but that includes me. I can only guess that you are refering to an extroverted J telling you how simple something is? Also your permanently biased opinion; that introverts obviously consider everything more deeply than extroverts is as offensive as it has always been.. sigh... Also i honeslty think discussion about X vs Y and the missing Z are much more likely to get a "well that is easy" response from any S especially if coupled with J rather than E or I becoming the dominate factor governing how people responed to these kinds of discussions.

That's the thing with me though, I most often absorb really quickly.

Yet if you feel an extrovert has spoken quicker than you think is appropriate for the response to have been based on throughly absorbed version of the information you have given earlier, you are happy to conclude that they have only considered it in a shallow mane; You reserve to yourself a level of judgement about what has happened in their heads.

Here someone suggests that someone else has made some comments worth thinking about and you reply you have thought about them enough. By the rules you apply to others around you, when you are speaking, it is, in this example, for Gen to decide if you thought about it enough... hehehe

 

[Dom]

That is true. However what type would you say a person was if they stayed quiet and listened as a preference? E or I?

I like extroverts and extroverted things (like cars) because of the feedback and because it's entertaining. But I also like coffee, I still wouldn't use it as shampoo.

Well then, there you go, sorry everyone, no one talk to extroverts please, all the enfps in counselling (a profession that is dependent on being able to listen and supposedly good for enpfs) stop cos you obviously can't listen you are an extrovert!

Ah silly of me, and I thought you were slowly moving away form preconceived ideas of what a type means!

Do I do to Es or Is to talk? You know what? I don't even think about whether they are extroverted or intorovert, I would no go sharing my problems with people who I do not think really understand (there is one exception to that though) and by understand i do not mean agree with my perspective but understand the way i interpret the world and thus is able to discuss things in a manner that aids my understanding of self.

Frankly, Xander, you have given me the "but it's oh so simple" line more often than some of the extroverts in my life ever have.

 

[Dom]

Oh ignore me, I'm just ranty and hungry and annoyed that my inconsiderate (and introverted I may as well add) housemate thinks it isn't important to clean up her mess in the kitchen, which means if I go cook my meal it will take me about an hour to do, what is mostly her, washing up before i can even start. I'm also annoyed that i can't concentrate on preparing for my exam tomorrow, not that I expect you to appreciate that, after all it's only worthless formal education huh?

 

[Gen]

Who said I was thinking of me? I know some Fs you know.

Squirm. You said it was you who just wanted to be heard.

Not always true. The people I'd class as a-typical extroverts (ie stuck on output) tend not to listen at all, yes their representative of a very small group but as far as I see it the pattern shows through most extroverts. Hence how part way through telling an extrovert your trouble they may well declare you an idiot and not wait to tell you either

There very well may be occasions where before you're done, I have come to a conclusion that what you did was idiotic. If you came to me and explained some instance where, in the beginning you decided to rob a bank, I would tell you you're an idiot, before you got to the point where you told me you felt guilty and gave the money to the children's hospital.

Further, what you're saying is that not all extroverts don't listen but that tendency exists in all of them. Can you make up your mind please? I actually disagree. I think the tendency could exist in anyone. You know very well that we can get caught on a word someone says that can send us into daydream land or on some kind of mind tangent - which means we're not listening anymore - only to come back realizing we've missed a lot of the story.

That is true. However what type would you say a person was if they stayed quiet and listened as a preference? E or I?

I can play your game . That person could very well be an Fe dominant person, which would be an extrovert.

That's not direct as some will take your actions as grovelling and a sign of weakness, stepping in for the kill. Giving is sometimes mistaken for an agreement of a return on the investment, such is societal norm but not a rule.

Thats true, some people do see it as a sign of weakness, but you know what? I see someone jumping in for the kill as a sign of weakness. I'll show my weak cards because I don't just want to win, I want to find agreement and accord. I show mine as a sign of non-aggression and you do the same. If someone doesn't meet my generosity in that way, then they are chalked up as the actual weak party in my mind and I don't need to win any more than I would need to win an argument with a child.

Let me see, the missus, by close mate Mike, Jon, Dave... ... Ellen, Shell... nah I completely ignore extroverts

My family are extroverts. It doesn't stop my favourite relative being the INFJ who rarely calls or visits and tends to forget things like calling back, birthdays etc.

I like extroverts and extroverted things (like cars) because of the feedback and because it's entertaining.

That's a lot more offensive than you realize, I think.

But I also like coffee, I still wouldn't use it as shampoo.

A bit more dramatic than the actual difference I think...

 

[Totenkindly]

... I also like coffee, I still wouldn't use it as shampoo.

I would.

*swoons over coffee*

 

[Gen]

I would.

*swoons over coffee*

lol, I know really, that would be a nice pick-me-up in the morning huh? Wash your hair with coffee, and then get out and have a cup of it!