ENxPs: Not embarrassed about creativity?

[Athenian200]

I've noticed that you think similarly to me on a few levels, but because you've got Ne and I've got Ni... you approach it differently, AND have so much more facility in navigating the social world. I'd be willing to bet that you made a lot more mistakes earlier on in life, because you impulsively acted out most of your hunches... but that you probably learned a lot more, and got a better "feel" for what was realistically possible, too. I always halted mine and thought them through, acted on a few but dismissed most of them, and while I probably made fewer mistakes in the eyes of others, I know almost nothing about reality. Funny how that works, I guess.

I do know that when I was much younger, I displayed signs of both Ni and Ne, but I definitely started to settle into Ni after being criticized by several teachers for doing something differently than how I was told, even though it made more sense. And I just know that I would feel unbelievably embarrassed displaying much intelligence or creativity in front of people in the real world now (though it's not as bad online). The way a lot of people would feel if they were seen naked or something.

I suppose the scariest thing about Ne to me, though, is the vulnerability. I mean, it pretty much means you're trusting the world around you and the situations you encounter to influence your ideas about things in a positive or meaningful direction, regardless of how screwed up, contrived, or unreasonable the part of the world you find yourself in may be. Basically, to some extent, you're letting yourself be controlled by the present situation, hunches, and context rather than anything beyond it.

So, I guess my question is... how exactly does showing creativity help you in life, and how do you manage to avoid feeling constantly embarrassed by it? I mean, does it just not register that it might make you look silly or inappropriate, do you just not care? Do you have something you tell yourself, or some kind of force inside that makes you keep doing it anyway?

Just curious.

 

[Wonkavision]

I've noticed that you think similarly to me on a few levels, but because you've got Ne and I've got Ni... you approach it differently, AND have so much more facility in navigating the social world. I'd be willing to bet that you made a lot more mistakes earlier on in life, because you impulsively acted out most of your hunches... but that you probably learned a lot more, and got a better "feel" for what was realistically possible, too. I always halted mine and thought them through, acted on a few but dismissed most of them, and while I probably made fewer mistakes in the eyes of others, I know almost nothing about reality. Funny how that works, I guess.

I do know that when I was much younger, I displayed signs of both Ni and Ne, but I definitely started to settle into Ni after being criticized by several teachers for doing something differently than how I was told, even though it made more sense. And I just know that I would feel unbelievably embarrassed displaying much intelligence or creativity in front of people in the real world now (though it's not as bad online). The way a lot of people would feel if they were seen naked or something.

I suppose the scariest thing about Ne to me, though, is the vulnerability. I mean, it pretty much means you're trusting the world around you and the situations you encounter to influence your ideas about things in a positive or meaningful direction, regardless of how screwed up, contrived, or unreasonable the part of the world you find yourself in may be. Basically, to some extent, you're letting yourself be controlled by the present situation, hunches, and context rather than anything beyond it.

So, I guess my question is... how exactly does showing creativity help you in life, and how do you manage to avoid feeling constantly embarrassed by it? I mean, does it just not register that it might make you look silly or inappropriate, do you just not care? Do you have something you tell yourself, or some kind of force inside that makes you keep doing it anyway?

Just curious.

Well, yes, I do feel very vulnerable most of the time, because I often follow my hunches and inspirations spontaneously, and therefore, make lots of mistakes and do things I regret.

But I don't necessarily feel controlled by the present situation.

I am somewhat dependent on external cues to tell me how I'm doing, if thats what you mean, because I'm an Extravert.

But I'm not locked in to external cues. I have introverted judgement too.

To me, the present situation is a sea of possibilites and I generally can't wait to jump in.

I usually only feel controlled when I allow the opinions of others to stifle my creativity.

Some people would say that I would benefit from letting others stifle my creativity a little.

I think the better solution is to balance my openness to experience with my personal values, and voluntarily limit the possibilities for my own good.

As far as creativity goes, its not just something I do here and there, as a hobby.

I take a creative approach to just about everything.

It seems that no matter what I'm doing, I personalize it in some way, often to the dismay of others, who are often eager to point out how I could have done it "better".

I realize that my approach to things often looks silly or illogical to other people, but the more I trust my own judgement, the less dependent I am on the approval of others.

Though people may initially criticize the way I do things, as long as I stick to my guns and take responsibility for my actions, they often come around to seeing the legitimacy of my approach.

It never fails.

On this forum, for example, there are some who think everything I do is ridiculous, and they spend a lot of time advising me and trying to "fix" me.

But I feel confident that if I stay true to myself, most of them will start to see where I'm coming from.

This has already begun to happen.

For every loudmouthed busybody that I've encountered in the last week or so, I've received a compliment or a friend request from someone else.

This is the natural consequence of being true to one's self in spite of the obstacles.

Anyone can do this, if they trust their own judgement more than the opinions of others.

 

[alcea rosea]

I've noticed that you think similarly to me on a few levels, but because you've got Ne and I've got Ni... you approach it differently, AND have so much more facility in navigating the social world. I'd be willing to bet that you made a lot more mistakes earlier on in life, because you impulsively acted out most of your hunches... but that you probably learned a lot more, and got a better "feel" for what was realistically possible, too.

This part sounded like something I've experienced. So, quite accurate according to my experiece as younger.

I suppose the scariest thing about Ne to me, though, is the vulnerability. I mean, it pretty much means you're trusting the world around you and the situations you encounter to influence your ideas about things in a positive or meaningful direction, regardless of how screwed up, contrived, or unreasonable the part of the world you find yourself in may be. Basically, to some extent, you're letting yourself be controlled by the present situation, hunches, and context rather than anything beyond it.

Interesting thought. I don't see Ne as vulnerable. As an ENFP Fi is much more vulnerable than Ne. In my experience, Ne doesn't mean trusting the world around me to influence me. It's not sensing. It's making the connections in my own head. So, there is environmental influence needed but it's not dominant. The thing doesn't happen in the environment but in my head. The Ne can happen even without the environmental affect, when I'm thinking of something when it's totally quiet around me. Ne can happen without anything happening in the environment. in that way, the environment is not controlling me nor my Ne process. Ne gets "food" from the environment but it doens't always need the external stimulus of "the world" or the people. Ne also concerns inner thougths that I play around with. These thoughts arent' necessarily the product of straight environmental affect.

So, I guess my question is... how exactly does showing creativity help you in life, and how do you manage to avoid feeling constantly embarrassed by it? I mean, does it just not register that it might make you look silly or inappropriate, do you just not care? Do you have something you tell yourself, or some kind of force inside that makes you keep doing it anyway?
Just curious.

I don't understand why I should be embarrased of someting I enjoy so much. Ne is not stupidity because on it's best it's brilliancy (lol, don't know if there is such word in English). It's seeing in the moment more than the others (with no Ne) can't. Of course, Ne needs pairing up with critical thinking, as you said there, you learn to see what's reasonable.

I really don't care if i look silly. I am silly at times. My thinking is pretty chaotic at times but I've learned to order it with Te and I've learned critical thinking. I don't pretend to be logical person and I enjoy my own mental processes and I also enjoy when I can discuss and use it with a person who is cabable of understaning the Ne flow.

It's not anything that forces me to use Ne. It's just that I am me, myself and I. I am who I am. I accept myself as I am (but I also seek to develop myself in some aspects) and I love using my best (and sometimes worst) qualities. Ne produces me the FLOW that has been discussed here.

I would certainly love to go back to my purest Ne state when I was younger. That creative state of mind is something to look for. That could certainly be the purpose of my life. To use my Ne creativity flow.

See - I just love it.

 

[Amargith]

Agreed. Fi is way more vulnerable. But like you, Athenian, I too shunned using Ne in public. This was only after I got to high school though. I changed primary schools very early on because the one I went to was so rigid. The one I went to was free-spirited. Also I had 3 older Ne-users in the house, so it was..kinda normal.

Once I went to high school, I curbed both Ne and Fi as far as I could, though occasionally I just burst, because of Ne going buckwild and Fi being exposed. Along the road there, I learned some Fe and Ni..I think, to keep a low profile in society and still survive.

The only places where I let Ne and Fi out was with my friends at the dance school, one time a week (they had a dance-evening there). Later on, the internet became an incredible resource. So many people to meet, insights to be gathered, knowledge to be collected. And I also learned that playfullness, when correctly done, can be a calculating move to impact people in a positive way. Yes, manipulation, I know. I learned to tell which people would appreciate my craziness and which wouldn't. And adapted accordingly. Meanwhile I used the internet to research every crazy question that went through my head and find out what I'm passionate about in life. In college, I once more curbed it in front of others and saved it for my SO and a few trusted friends.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Don't you think that you are mixing feelings and intuition too much ?


Jugdging from some of your threads I woud say "yes". Can it be that your actual "problem" here is Fe ?

 

[Athenian200]

Don't you think that you are mixing feelings and intuition too much ?


Jugdging from some of your threads I woud say "yes". Can it be that your actual "problem" here is Fe ?

Yes. I am an NF, after all. How should I know what goes through the head of an NT? I don't claim to understand anything about you people, and in fact I probably can't. *shrug*

 

[entropie]

I suppose the scariest thing about Ne to me, though, is the vulnerability. I mean, it pretty much means you're trusting the world around you and the situations you encounter to influence your ideas about things in a positive or meaningful direction, regardless of how screwed up, contrived, or unreasonable the part of the world you find yourself in may be. Basically, to some extent, you're letting yourself be controlled by the present situation, hunches, and context rather than anything beyond it.

It's true about the vulnerability, but it doesnt actually mean that you are likely to become a pawn. That is too far of a leap. I think to be actually suffering from it, would need a person with a weak rational function aswell.

What's true about the vulnerability, is that you in some situations consider far more variables to a scenario than the person in front of you. And if the person then gets you wrong, what is most often the case, it hurts.

Cant say more, cause I didnt understand the rest of the text.

 

[simulatedworld]

I've noticed that you think similarly to me on a few levels, but because you've got Ne and I've got Ni... you approach it differently, AND have so much more facility in navigating the social world. I'd be willing to bet that you made a lot more mistakes earlier on in life, because you impulsively acted out most of your hunches... but that you probably learned a lot more, and got a better "feel" for what was realistically possible, too. I always halted mine and thought them through, acted on a few but dismissed most of them, and while I probably made fewer mistakes in the eyes of others, I know almost nothing about reality. Funny how that works, I guess.

Bingo. Hence my most basic problem with the IxxJ approach (especially ISxJ.)

I do know that when I was much younger, I displayed signs of both Ni and Ne, but I definitely started to settle into Ni after being criticized by several teachers for doing something differently than how I was told, even though it made more sense. And I just know that I would feel unbelievably embarrassed displaying much intelligence or creativity in front of people in the real world now (though it's not as bad online). The way a lot of people would feel if they were seen naked or something.

Yep, I guess that's the problem with Ni. I think the best approach for ENTPs is to just teach Ne how to simulate Ni via opening up Ti a little more. Seems to be working for me thus far, anyway.

I suppose the scariest thing about Ne to me, though, is the vulnerability. I mean, it pretty much means you're trusting the world around you and the situations you encounter to influence your ideas about things in a positive or meaningful direction, regardless of how screwed up, contrived, or unreasonable the part of the world you find yourself in may be. Basically, to some extent, you're letting yourself be controlled by the present situation, hunches, and context rather than anything beyond it.

Yeah but the great thing about Ne (and also Se) is that you don't *need* a specific plan or direction for how to manipulate the outer world; you just jump in and work on it and something will present itself.

And by the way, no, P morality comes from internally rigid Ji--we don't take our fundamental beliefs from the outer world often at all and we pride ourselves more on internal logical/ethical consistency than on outwardly measurable productivity...hence the basic P/J difference.

So, I guess my question is... how exactly does showing creativity help you in life, and how do you manage to avoid feeling constantly embarrassed by it? I mean, does it just not register that it might make you look silly or inappropriate, do you just not care? Do you have something you tell yourself, or some kind of force inside that makes you keep doing it anyway? Just curious.

It helps because Te/Fe goals are not important to us. We use an outwardly flexible and open attitude because our organizational drive is directed inwardly, so it's far more important that we have our internal perspective set straight than that we actually get stuff done in the outer world. I know you might think that's really weird and all, but...of course you do. You're a J.

 

[Kasper]

Embarrassment passes and usually less painfully than one may expect so I simply don't let it stop me doing what I want or enjoy.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yes. I am an NF, after all. How should I know what goes through the head of an NT? I don't claim to understand anything about you people, and in fact I probably can't. *shrug*

You are right, you probably can't.

But I would say that the only thing that can make you embarrased are feelings. Since the intuition is just a way of perciving things. (by definition)


It happened a number of times that some NF asks me "how can't I trust people just like that". But my answer is always the same a it is among the lines " Because they can't hurt me." (in psychological sense of course)

Since the only real options in the end are that they will like it what is good and that they will not like it what is once again fine with me. Which is because I use alot of nothing to lose philosophy in life. (what does not mean that I will not calculate things)

One of the reasons why I have managed to "survive" with my lifestyle so far is because I don't really need confirmation of others. Which is mostly because of deficit of feeling at all levels. So I think this is your actual problem.

(just a thought)

 

[simulatedworld]

Yes. I am an NF, after all. How should I know what goes through the head of an NT? I don't claim to understand anything about you people, and in fact I probably can't. *shrug*

And this, dear readers, is why INFPs will never, ever, ever be as cool as INFJs.

Why is Ni so fucking awesome??

 

[Virtual ghost]

And this, dear readers, is why INFPs will never, ever, ever be as cool as INFJs.

Why is Ni so fucking awesome??

Because no one trully understands it. What is a magnet for all those analitical folks out there.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Why should I be embarrassed about being myself? We all have the same fate.


To be embarrassed is to live as if someone else's opinion of me is worth more than my own. It's a lie.

 

[Athenian200]

It happened a number of times that some NF asks me "how can't I trust people just like that". But my answer is always the same a it is among the lines " Because they can't hurt me." (in psychological sense of course)

Ah, so you find it easier to trust people because they can't hurt you. I see. I'm paranoid about other people might try to undermine me if they disapprove to the point that I don't want to be seen doing anything they might not approve of (though I'd still do it behind their back).

Since the only real options in the end are that they will like it what is good and that they will not like it what is once again fine with me. Which is because I use alot of nothing to lose philosophy in life. (what does not mean that I will not calculate things)

One you didn't really consider... what if they don't like it, and as a result, set out to undermine you and make your life miserable? Offending people is dangerous, you never know how they'll react. They can be like animals. I mean, have you just got contingency plans set up, like with "dirt" on everyone so you can blackmail them and keep that from happening, or what? It seems the only alternative to avoiding offense, is keeping everyone too intimidated to move against you. And I'm no Machiavelli.

One of the reasons why I have managed to "survive" with my lifestyle so far is because I don't really need confirmation of others. Which is mostly because of deficit of feeling at all levels. So I think this is your actual problem.

Ah, yes. I need the confirmation of others to act, and since I haven't been getting that lately, I've been unmotivated to the point of complete apathy.

Yep, I guess that is my problem after all. NTs don't get embarrassed, because they don't feel all that strongly about such things. Doesn't apply to them.

And this, dear readers, is why INFPs will never, ever, ever be as cool as INFJs.

Why is Ni so fucking awesome??

Yes, at least we understand our own incapacities fully.

Because it's future-oriented, goal-focused, insightful in unusual ways, and creative and flexible internally. Its got all the positive traits of imagination and planning/foresight, which are normally exclusive to NPs and SJs respectively.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Must be it. It's a shame Ni is like, what, 4x rarer than Ne?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ah, so you find it easier to trust people because they can't hurt you. I see. I'm paranoid about other people might try to undermine me if they disapprove to the point that I don't want to be seen doing anything they might not approve of (though I'd still do it behind their back).




One you didn't really consider... what if they don't like it, and as a result, set out to undermine you and make your life miserable? Offending people is dangerous, you never know how they'll react. They can be like animals. I mean, have you just got contingency plans set up, like with "dirt" on everyone so you can blackmail them and keep that from happening, or what? It seems the only alternative to avoiding offense, is keeping everyone too intimidated to move against you. And I'm no Machiavelli.




Ah, yes. I need the confirmation of others to act, and since I haven't been getting that lately, I've been unmotivated to the point of complete apathy.

Yep, I guess that is my problem after all. NTs don't get embarrassed, because they don't feel all that strongly about such things. Doesn't apply to them.

1.I can be hurt phisically (if you can catch me) and I can be sabotaged in theory. But I don't really see how people could sabotage me in a major way to be honest. Plus my cold and sociopathic image provides extra protection.


2. Yes I have consider it.
Well, I can undersatand your concern since you are from the US (if I am not mistaken) what means that there is alot of people around which believe in many different thing and they are armed. While people overhere are much more relaxed an friendly (really friendly). In almost all bad cases I am the one that is rated as judgemental and grumpy.


3. If it is too hard to embarrassed you that is also a problem (at least until people get used to you)

 

[BerberElla]

Agreed. Fi is way more vulnerable. But like you, Athenian, I too shunned using Ne in public. This was only after I got to high school though. I changed primary schools very early on because the one I went to was so rigid. The one I went to was free-spirited. Also I had 3 older Ne-users in the house, so it was..kinda normal.

Once I went to high school, I curbed both Ne and Fi as far as I could, though occasionally I just burst, because of Ne going buckwild and Fi being exposed. Along the road there, I learned some Fe and Ni..I think, to keep a low profile in society and still survive.

The only places where I let Ne and Fi out was with my friends at the dance school, one time a week (they had a dance-evening there). Later on, the internet became an incredible resource. So many people to meet, insights to be gathered, knowledge to be collected. And I also learned that playfullness, when correctly done, can be a calculating move to impact people in a positive way. Yes, manipulation, I know. I learned to tell which people would appreciate my craziness and which wouldn't. And adapted accordingly. Meanwhile I used the internet to research every crazy question that went through my head and find out what I'm passionate about in life. In college, I once more curbed it in front of others and saved it for my SO and a few trusted friends.

Agreed about the Fi being more vunerable too. I was never embarrassed about my Ne, not until I had been married to an istj long enough have it squished into a tiny unwelcome voice lol.

I love my Ne now and before though, don't care how crazy and spontaneous it makes me appear to others, it has always helped me when I have worked in any job I had, endeared me to the management for some strange reason.

 

[Sachetan]

The processes I use the most are Ne and Ni and they support each other. I see the point of vulnerability but myself i've learned to be very open with my creativity. I think it's the only way. At least for me.

I've found professions where I've been able to focus solely on creativeness. That's when I'm happiest - not getting my hands dirty. I share my visions in a group and others will execute.

Of course there has to be a certain amount of intelligence, creativeness and openness within a group to be able to take on what I have to give. Right now I have an ESTJ boss who doesn't possess a lot of that but luckily my visions have earned him extra buck so he supports me even though he doesn't get me.

Ownership of ideas is also very important. In a group environment the mastermind may be overlooked if she doesn't remind others of her value constantely. Many don't consider visioning and planning real work. But I think you cannot be too modest when you're very different from others. You have to show them who you are.

 

[Athenian200]

^ Must be it. It's a shame Ni is like, what, 4x rarer than Ne?

There's probably a good reason for it. Ni is a little too powerful. I mean, by keeping creativity and foresight/planning divided between NPs and SJs, with SPs having to kind of fake their way though with an odd combination of flexibility and concrete awareness, you get a balance maintained. An NJ with confidence and skill (which I'm not) has the potential to seriously upset that balance. Let's just say that there isn't room in the world for a lot NJs, because they'd quickly turn the world into a battlefield of ideas. The NTJs for the sake of power, and the NFJs for the sake of their ideals. The world needs more followers, rebels, and jesters than leaders. NJs can pull the strings because don't so much demand conformity like SJs, as anticipate the existence of rebels and followers, and set up the situation so that they benefit from the existence of both of them. They lead, but no one knows they lead.

2. Yes I have consider it.
Well, I can undersatand your concern since you are from the US (if I am not mistaken) what means that there is alot of people around which believe in many different thing and they are armed. While people overhere are much more relaxed an friendly (really friendly). In almost all bad cases I am the one that is rated as judgemental and grumpy.

Yes, that's definitely part of it. Relaxed and friendly... is NOT the word I'd use to describe most people in the US. So I guess part of my shame is really fear of consequences.

The processes I use the most are Ne and Ni and they support each other. I see the point of vulnerability but myself i've learned to be very open with my creativity. I think it's the only way. At least for me.

I've found professions where I've been able to focus solely on creativeness. That's when I'm happiest - not getting my hands dirty. I share my visions in a group and others will execute.

Of course there has to be a certain amount of intelligence, creativeness and openness within a group to be able to take on what I have to give. Right now I have an ESTJ boss who doesn't possess a lot of that but luckily my visions have earned him extra buck so he supports me even though he doesn't get me.

Ownership of ideas is also very important. In a group environment the mastermind can be overlooked if she doesn't remind others of her value constantely. You cannot be too modest when you're different.

Yes, of course. You found a group where it was considered acceptable and you weren't thought less of for it, and even found a niche where you could get others to implement your ideas after you came up with them. Now THAT does sound great.

Yes, that's just it... I'm very modest. Throwing Ne around isn't very modest, though it probably works well.

 

[revolve]

Athenian200: woah! great post!!! i didn't read any of the other responses to your inquiry but beautiful insight / amazing woah took my breath away goodness & yes . . . yes I feel like I have made a lot of mistakes in a way but very necessary mistakes so then therefore not mistakes at all but rather little different colored bricks that I be a walkin' down the yellow brick road of life type stuff . . . And yes when i was younger I could "feel" myself being very much so the "when in rome" type with all sorts of stuff because I would get so immersed / lost into whatever environment or people that i was around & also feeling the appreciation for everything from hip hop music that has explicit lyrics that is degrading to women from smoking cigarettes when around smokers blah blah the list could go on for eons . . . but nonetheless now I feel I have "honed" my introverted feeling function & feel also that I know my values & am now careful about WHO I spend my time with & HOW I spend it. I no longer feel like such a blank slate . . . so therefore do not need to delve into quite as much . . . i am 34 years old now & am slowing down & settling into me . . .