ENTJ or ENFJ?

[Xander]

I see this as utilitarianism/cooperation in goals, not efficiency alone. I happen to find it more efficient to get people 'on my team' then try to be a dictator. I could succeed where others failed because people would want to do what I wanted if that makes sense.

That's exactly what I thought you meant. Way ahead of that technique, no that I mind either method really, I'm soo used to being organised I just smile and wave

Haha!! This is funny because when things would not go how the ENTJ said it would he would send out 'hate mails'. The managers I got along with would call me to interpret . He in turn would try and show me how to look objectively at situations that got under my skin.

Hmm.. well I guess the age gap between my sister and my father accounts for a lot cause he doesn't really do hate.. he does extremely disappointed and slightly miffed mostly. Really pissed off would mean he wouldn't want to use anything other than face to face confrontation. He goes all red and shouty and stuff.. It's quite funny really. OF course he rarely see's this as humorous

The objective thing though is something I've found with both ENFJs and ENFPs. Like all types they need assistance usually in building their opposite type into their thinking. With my sister it's taken her a long time but now she's peaceful where as before she was a storm.

I ended up working in the home office store for over a year in close proximity. We did balance each other out quite a bit. We would ask for the others opinion/view on things. We had an F/T clash in many areas however got along quite well.

F/T clash? I would have thought that as both are known for making plans for the team and including the team that there wouldn't be much of a problem. I am finding out though that my "case studies" are odd balls

 

[Xander]

Basically I think ENTJs and ENFJs begin have the same starting point with how they view things but they just go about it in different ways. Te probably makes ENTJs more vocal, but I often think the same things, I just don't always say it because of Fe. I hope this makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. It also quantifies what I was picking up as the similarity. I'd not conceptualised Fe in that sense before, its very helpful thanks.

 

[substitute]

I know an ENTJ in his 40's, who's very personable and tends to be very aware of others' feelings, and careful not to hurt them. However, it gives the false impression that it's because he cares in the same way as an ENFJ might, when in fact it's just that he's older and wiser now and has learned that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. He says that while, in his past, he would just say what he thought and damn what anyone thought of it, he's learned that this can sometimes come back on him when he needs the cooperation or help of someone who earlier he offended or made a bad impression on. He's nowhere near as overbearing as the ENTJ stereotype, because he's learned to be more subtle - he says himself, "I've learned how to manipulate and control without people realising it, by making them think it's what they want and need". I think I may've had a bad influence on him...

I also know an ENFJ who can seem very cold sometimes and often doesn't come across as being as warm as his type profile suggests, because although he listens to others and helps if he can, he's become quite rigid in his routines and ways of doing things, quite closed off to new ideas or methods, and also he never opens up about himself. I've worked with him quite closely for over a year, and though I know him well enough to confidently type him ENFJ, I know very little else about him - though not for want of my trying to be friendly, and we've had dozens of conversations. He's also never once praised me for my work, or taken up any of the ideas I've come up with, which is rather discouraging. Just this week I saw someone try to go to him with a problem and suggest that 'the way things are done here' needs revising, and all she went away with, was a booklet of instructions on how to just carry on doing things his way anyway. He's quite stuck in his ways and it causes a lot of upset 'below'. Especially because if you try to sort it out, he's so conflict-avoidant, that he just won't talk about it. He'll shelve it by saying you have to make an appointment to talk about it, so he has time to prepare a persuasion tactic and you always go away having been smooth-talked into giving up your point of view and needs.

Where the ENTJ may not let you have your say because he doesn't want to be undermined, the ENFJ won't let you express yourself for fear of it causing conflict or embarrassment, and tries to placate and hush you up ASAP.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

That's exactly what I thought you meant. Way ahead of that technique, no that I mind either method really, I'm soo used to being organised I just smile and wave

You give yourself quite a bit of credit in the intuition department. Chances are highly likely you wouldn't catch on (for quite some time anyway) to what I was doing sister or no!

F/T clash? I would have thought that as both are known for making plans for the team and including the team that there wouldn't be much of a problem.

Yes in my previous post I mentioned how our 'styles' of communication and getting jobs accomplished were different. I remember quite clearly 'debates' that we had about this. I especially remember the debate when I told him his problem was that he was a control freak ! He was in his mid-forties. He told me that long ago he accepted the fact he enjoyed being in control and made no bones about it. I on the other hand hadn't accepted it yet though I was just as bad as he was. I was just 'shrewd' about it. I would learn that it was better to be direct someday.

I am finding out though that my "case studies" are odd balls

This is only logical seeing that they are hanging around you!

 

[meanlittlechimp]

I know an ENTJ in his 40's, who's very personable and tends to be very aware of others' feelings, and careful not to hurt them. However, it gives the false impression that it's because he cares in the same way as an ENFJ might, when in fact it's just that he's older and wiser now and has learned that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. He says that while, in his past, he would just say what he thought and damn what anyone thought of it, he's learned that this can sometimes come back on him when he needs the cooperation or help of someone who earlier he offended or made a bad impression on. He's nowhere near as overbearing as the ENTJ stereotype, because he's learned to be more subtle - he says himself, "I've learned how to manipulate and control without people realising it, by making them think it's what they want and need". I think I may've had a bad influence on him...

I also know an ENFJ who can seem very cold sometimes and often doesn't come across as being as warm as his type profile suggests, because although he listens to others and helps if he can, he's become quite rigid in his routines and ways of doing things, quite closed off to new ideas or methods, and also he never opens up about himself. I've worked with him quite closely for over a year, and though I know him well enough to confidently type him ENFJ, I know very little else about him - though not for want of my trying to be friendly, and we've had dozens of conversations. He's also never once praised me for my work, or taken up any of the ideas I've come up with, which is rather discouraging. Just this week I saw someone try to go to him with a problem and suggest that 'the way things are done here' needs revising, and all she went away with, was a booklet of instructions on how to just carry on doing things his way anyway. He's quite stuck in his ways and it causes a lot of upset 'below'. Especially because if you try to sort it out, he's so conflict-avoidant, that he just won't talk about it. He'll shelve it by saying you have to make an appointment to talk about it, so he has time to prepare a persuasion tactic and you always go away having been smooth-talked into giving up your point of view and needs.

Where the ENTJ may not let you have your say because he doesn't want to be undermined, the ENFJ won't let you express yourself for fear of it causing conflict or embarrassment, and tries to placate and hush you up ASAP.

Interesting. I've had the exact same experiences with the two ENTJs and 2 ENFJs I know (who are in their 30s). One of the ENTJs is not as smooth as the one you describe but the other is.

The ENFJ descriptions were right on from my personal experience.

 

[mkobrien76]

Thanks guys. Now I know Mike is definately ENFJ and not ENTJ.

Finally i have been quantified.

 

[Xander]

You give yourself quite a bit of credit in the intuition department. Chances are highly likely you wouldn't catch on (for quite some time anyway) to what I was doing sister or no!

I was just being honest, sorry. It was exactly what I thought you meant. Shouldn't have said so should I. Still learning.

This is only logical seeing that they are hanging around you!

Two psycho analysts. They got messed up in the head waaay before I could have exerted much influence

Interesting. I've had the exact same experiences with the two ENTJs and 2 ENFJs I know (who are in their 30s). One of the ENTJs is not as smooth as the one you describe but the other is.

The ENFJ descriptions were right on from my personal experience.

I think it correlates to negative/ positive feedback preference.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

This might help.

ENFJ - ESTJ / ESTP / ENTJ

The Fine Art of Clarifying Type by Dr. Linda V. Berens

I had a client who in the workshop Self-Discovery Process® sorted first as Artisan, then as Guardian, then as In-Charge™. Her behavior looked ESTJ like and even ENTJ like in the workshop. Her MBTI® instrument results pointed her to ENFJ and she said the descriptions of ENFJ from various sources fit her perfectly.

All of these share the In-Charge™ Interaction Style and in a time and task situation will move quickly to focusing on getting an achievable result as soon as possible. ENFJs in counseling, coaching, and OD often don’t recognize their own In-Charge™ style, but this woman was different. She was clear on that style. Her background was business, with many years as a successful senior executive where time and task and quick decisions rule. These four types also share the In-Charge™ style of straightforward and direct communication and although

ENFJs will soften the message at times, they still tend to be directing and determined in their verbal and non-verbal behavior.

ENFJ-ESTJ: Both are affiliative and seek a sense of community and interdependence. Both want to have roles clearly defined.

ENFJ-ESTP: ENFJs often have a sense of style and aesthetics that looks more Artisan than Idealist. They also can get into that fun-loving place of experiencing and enjoying the physical moment. Both of these behaviors may be evidence of engaging their tertiary cognitive process of Se in a relief role.

ENFJ-ENTJ: Cleary the business background played strongly in how this woman typically behaved and is a clear case of the environment influencing type development. She may have acquired a great deal of TJ (Te) skill in her work. However, these two types share Ni and so the sense of foreseeing and visioning would appear similar in both. Also, my client disclosed that she had overachieving parents whom she continually wanted to please and connect with (Fe) so the very strong achievement orientation we often see in _NTJs was there. Additionally, Ti plays an Aspirational role in ENFJ and we often see a seeking of clarity around definitions and principles that is usually a characteristic of the Rational temperament.

Te: If she had not been free to be her ENFJ self growing up and in her work, she may have been forced to develop skill in Te in a way that we might not expect from a process that usually plays a somewhat Devilish role in the personality. She may have tapped into it in a more transformative way as she structured her life to be who she thought she needed to be. This would explain both the ESTJ and ENTJ look to her behavior.

 

[htb]

ENFJs often have a sense of style and aesthetics that looks more Artisan than Idealist.

That serves to explain a result Proteanmix received in a personality test a week or so ago.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

This would also coincide with Brendans idea that ENFJs are as much as, if not more, of the 'social chameleon' then the INTP. I am inclined to agree.

 

[Xander]

meanlittlechimp,
Good points. Though I'm not sure about ESTPs and ENFJs getting on that well. Mine certainly don't (that's the missus and my sister) but I can certainly see why they might.

Thanks.

This would also coincide with Brendans idea that ENFJs are as much as, if not more, of the 'social chameleon' then the INTP. I am inclined to agree.

I'm not sure about this... The whole social chameleon thing I think is a bit of a con in regard to the INTP. I've seen ENFJs do their chameleon thing and it's noticeable that they do not really change much. A better description would be that they amplify different traits around different people. They don't change anything except the relative strengths of the traits which they posses naturally.

I think the chameleon nature of INTPs comes more from a study of people like a lab experiment. They're not really changing (ala chameleon) but more fitting into the pattern which they have noticed. I guess that's the same thing but still I'd be wary around such terms as "social chameleon". It makes INTPs sound sociable or even likable and we all know that ain't true

 

[wildcat]

Okay how do you tell the difference between these two?

I'm thinking that an ENFJ who's had problems with people in the past, especially a bloke, would tend more towards T-ish kind of thinking. Less empathy and more guarded like the ENTJ. However would an ENTJ who'd been hurt by people tend to be more empathic as the wound would make them open up with true friends? How could you tell them apart? How do they react to such stresses as bullies and betrayals? Which one is more likely to bite your head off one minute and then be perfectly fine the next?

Oh and the other thing running through my head is that a male ENFJ would perhaps appear more ENTJ as males are encouraged to be T and such.

Thoughts people?

What is the Keirsey division? For the N the F/T we know. Your thing. This is not what I mean.

It is the blatant, the obvious, the blaring, the thing that caughts the eye.
And it is all right.
And in this realm there exists a crossing over pattern? A bold statement.

Look at it in this way. I round about a little. A little analogy, if you please.
Keirsey has the other favourite, the P/J dichotomy for the S.

Let us turn the table around.
Do they cross over? Give me the analogy and I believe you.

 

[Xander]

What is the Keirsey division? For the N the F/T we know. Your thing. This is not what I mean.

It is the blatant, the obvious, the blaring, the thing that caughts the eye.
And it is all right.
And in this realm there exists a crossing over pattern? A bold statement.

Look at it in this way. I round about a little. A little analogy, if you please.
Keirsey has the other favourite, the P/J dichotomy for the S.

Let us turn the table around.
Do they cross over? Give me the analogy and I believe you.

I'm intuiting you meaning here Wildcat so forgive me if I'm off base.

SJ & SP.
Right well ISFJ is the first of these to cross over daily. Though they are by nature a creature of social norms and values they posses the ENTP shadow which means their sense of humour is mostly directed at what crosses social norms. This kind of thing is very P.

The times when they are SP is when they are excited about something. I would then describe the ISFJ as more ESFP in attitude. The cynicism which seems common to ISFJs disappears and is replaced by a sort of positive nihilism. They still expect the bogey man to ruin everything but this time such thinking is greeted with "well sod it I'm going to do it anyway".

Now is that close to what you wanted to procure or have I gone off on a tangent?

 

[wildcat]

I'm intuiting you meaning here Wildcat so forgive me if I'm off base.

SJ & SP.
Right well ISFJ is the first of these to cross over daily. Though they are by nature a creature of social norms and values they posses the ENTP shadow which means their sense of humour is mostly directed at what crosses social norms. This kind of thing is very P.

The times when they are SP is when they are excited about something. I would then describe the ISFJ as more ESFP in attitude. The cynicism which seems common to ISFJs disappears and is replaced by a sort of positive nihilism. They still expect the bogey man to ruin everything but this time such thinking is greeted with "well sod it I'm going to do it anyway".

Now is that close to what you wanted to procure or have I gone off on a tangent?

Exactly. You have said it. They posses the shadow thing which is the opposite of a kind. Is the ENTP the shadow of ...

Now I get it!

 

[sakuraba]

Which one is more likely to bite your head off one minute and then be perfectly fine the next?


Thoughts people?

ENTJ, easily.

NT can block out their feelings. Rationalize what happened and think about the problem from a detached view.

When an NF bites your head off, it'll probably take them a while to cool down.

 

[substitute]

I reckon it's all down to how they act if they witness people yelling at each other. The ENFJ will try to calm people down and get them to discuss their feelings nicely, expecting to be able to solve it and have everyone happy by the end of the 'session'. The ENTJ will probably stand back and watch for a bit, before telling everyone to just STFU, or walking out and leaving them to it.

And where the ENFJ expects that once they've mediated a 'peace' between two people, that their animosity is solved and over, the ENTJ would tend to expect that the peace was superficial and that another argument was sure to arise before long. ENFJ would put those people together to encourage them to get along (actually thinking this will work), whilst ENTJ would keep them separated if possible.

 

[sakuraba]

Also, NTJs are usually very serious people, they dont have that "silly switch" that many NFs have.

Disagree here.

Perhaps because you are sp-first, as self-pres of all types remain rather serious. However as a sx-first, I can be extremely silly. Especially in a sarcasticly mocking way.

 

[Xander]

ENTJ, easily.

NT can block out their feelings. Rationalize what happened and think about the problem from a detached view.

When an NF bites your head off, it'll probably take them a while to cool down.

Well he was weighed and measured as an ENFJ.
Not sure about this cool off period you know. My sister is an ENFJ and my father is an ENTJ. He'll not bite your head off unless you cross his principles (he's very T like that) but she will remove your spine in a heartbeat if you cross hers! Mind you he's positive feedback and she's negative so perhaps that's the deciding factor?

 

[Xander]

Disagree here.

Absofragginglutely!!
INTJs can go more silly than most, the whole ESFP shadow, and ENTJs can be extremely silly, though mostly in a dry sense compared to an F.

Give my father a few drinks and that'll be an excellent example

 

[hotmale]

the ENTJ would tend to expect that the peace was superficial and that another argument was sure to arise before long. ENFJ would put those people together to encourage them to get along (actually thinking this will work), whilst ENTJ would keep them separated if possible.

I think perhaps you are confused with how an INTJ will act with an ENTJ. ENTJs make great mediators, in my opinion. They will solve the dispute in a practical, fair way- with both sides agreeing to the result, while an ENFJ will make sure everyone is emotionally happy.

ENFJs- likes talking about feelings
ENTJs- do only when everything else is resolved
INTJs- goes around telling everyone to STFU, heh