ENTJ in popular culture

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

Tywin is an ESTJ. He's obsessed with keeping the status quo (Te-Si). I don't watch Vikings, but I heard from most sources that Ragnar is an NTJ.

 

[Norexan]

ENTJs are mostly depicted as ultimate villains- Emperor Palpatine, Sauron, Littlefinger, Negan, Shao Kahn, Lex Luthor...
I dare anyone to present me an example of a healthy, heroic ENTJ in popular culture.

Aquaman.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

Aquaman.

I don't think he's an ENTJ, I've seen him typed as at least four or five different types, but I think that ESTJ seems more likely for him.

 

[Digital Lion]

While I like them both, Tywin's an ENTP and Lothbrok, an ESTP.

Tywin, an ENTP? HOW? Just HOW? You'd definitely have to "show and prove" in order for me to get behind that one. He is almost the epitome of NTJness!

And Ragnar's brother Rollo is the ESTP. But Ragnar, himself, is indeed an ENTJ--I love the Vikings series and will defend these typings to the death! lol

I won't compare them by way of naturally occurring function stack but by corresponding perceiving and judging functions.

Dominant Se Vs. Tertiary Se

Rollo better exemplars the fearsome "warrior" motif and the corresponding insatiable bloodlust for hand to hand combat, in its essence, as ESTPs are more inclined to do lol; Though ESTPs and ENTJs (caught in a Te-Se loop) can look remarkably similar, Rollo in true ESTP fashion is more impulsive, focused on the hear and now, and not nearly as reflective and visibly/effectively cerebral as Ragnar is. ESTPs are literalists and more concerned with the tactical details of the present moment and what they can perceive with the five senses. Too much deep conceptualizing and theorizing bores and drains them and Rollo is most alive when he is in the heat of battle. Ragnar, via tertiary Se, can also relish in utilizing his Se (sometimes as a pressure release valve--see his drug addled relationship with Chinese Pusher Lady) but it's more in the way of accomplishing a goal, a means to an end and a push to act decisively and effectively recalibrate a plan if needs be. Ostensibly, Ragnar doesn't seem to possess the same appetite for battle that Rollo does, though he can most certainly kick ass.

Dominant Te Vs. Auxiliary Ti

ENTJs may not typically be ingenious innovators in so much as they are brilliant applicators of ingenious innovation. Ragnar wants more farm land and greater economic opportunities for his people and dom Te is about keenly envisioning the most effective outcome to any given situation or problem and the ability to set the corresponding plans into action by way of applying ideas and concepts, e.g., Ragnar's utilizing of the sun dial and sun stone (seafaring navigational technology), Floki's boat buildiing craftsmanship and ingenuity, and the priest Athelstan's extensive knowledge of foreign lands and the vast resources they possessed.

An ESTP's auxiliary Ti is adept at identifying how the principles and logical systems in the user’s external environment could be manipulated to work to their advantage in the hear and now more so than planning in the long term. Again, Rollo utilizes a vast array of weaponry with devastating strategic efficacy. And when Kattegat attacked, he was able to instantly react with calculated cunning and efficiency, saving the lives of his loved ones as they retreated into the mountains.

Tertiary Fe Vs. Inferior Fi

Fe grants Rollo with more of an immediate and palpable charm; though he is brutal in battle, off-field he seems like a folksy, down-to-earth "mensch," "one of the guys." Furthermore, Rollo is quite concerned with being loved and admired for his battle prowess and is viscerally sensitive to being perceived as Ragnar's lesser brother; he actively seeks fame and glory within his community and purposefully thrusts himself into the center of attention. But Rollo more emotively wears his heart and feelings on his sleeve; when Ragnar is harsh and critical of Bjorn, Rollo is more sympathetic and consistently reaches out to him to affirm his worth and value. When Rollo becomes a count and is openly despised by his wife, Princess Gisla, he affably acquiesces to her refusal to bed him and consummate their marriage on their wedding night. There, his Fe shines through.

Ragnar maintains a greater psychological distance to others and is a bit more aloof and removed, more visibly donning the heavy, wearisome crown of a King. Inferior Fi manifests in the form of Ragnar taking his loyal, dutiful, formidable wife Lagertha for granted and when she is unable to grant him more sons, he readily takes on Queen Aslaug in order to accomplish this. He even goes so far as to suggest that they all live together and is genuinely puzzled and feels betrayed when such a request isn't well received. And when Aslaug begins to stand in the way of his ambition, she incurs his disdain and gradually fades into irrelevance concerning his overarching aims, having already fulfilled her usefulness. Thus and unsurprisingly, his shitty Fi usage ultimately leaves him alone and reclusive.

But Ragnar did frequently manifest his own brand of morality and deeply held values. On a raid where everyone was being mercilessly slaughtered, he showed compassion to a young, helpless child; he allowed Earl Haraldson the dignity and diplomacy of a warrior's battle and subsequent death, as opposed to expediently playing dirty. Once he takes his dear friend Athelstan under his protection, he never breaks with him regardless of differences in faith/belief and temporary changes in allegiances.

Auxiliary Ni vs. Inferior Ni

Ragnar is a forward looking visionary in the truest sense of the word. At various points throughout the series, Ragnar accesses Ni via "mystical" visions of Odin wandering nearby and watching Valkyries fly the dead off to Valhalla and at one point towards the end of his life, envisions himself being denied entry to Valhalla. He is driven by a pursuit of knowledge, by a belief that there is "more than just this." In the very first episode he remarked that "Odin gave his eye for knowledge. But I'd give much more." Look at Ragnar's close relationship with Athelstan and King Ecbert. He is drawn to their unique, usually abstracted perspectives and (blasphemously) debates the existence of the gods and the meaning of life. Moreover, Ragnar has showed a propensity for playing the long game while forgoing more immediate slights and provocations, as seen in his dealings with Jarl Borg, King Horik, King Aella, King Ecbert and Floki upon his killing of Athelstan.

But inferior Ni, as demonstrated in Rollo, is a lot less trusting and reliant on one's gut iNtuition. Rollo is routinely skeptical and weary of Ragnar's seemingly unreasonable ambitious visions and their feasibility. And even when the Seer assures Rollo that his future will be far greater than he ever dared imagine, he is cynical and unconvinced. At one point in the series, he falls into a deep depression and despite the assurances of those close to him, can't see his way out of the fog--and only occasionally, did he show signs of foresight and clarity when considering the future implications of a certain line of action. But as Rollo's intuition matures, he becomes better at allowing his actions to be buttressed by underlying hunches, as witnessed in his desire to stay in Paris after a successful raid, where he eventually goes on to be a legendary count.

Tywin is an ESTJ. He's obsessed with keeping the status quo (Te-Si).

IMO, he's not interested in maintaining the status quo for the sake of tradition and constancy in so much as he has a long term goal and vision that involves his family "having a dynasty that will last a thousand years" and has set about to make that happen. I'd think that "keeping the status quo" would more so apply to how things are naturally supposed to function based on how they've always functioned (in this case, as it relates to the longstanding feudal system present in their world), what is the right way and the wrong way to go about something, which would certainly entail the disposal of his family's flagrantly illegitimate claim to the throne.

Also, I'd imagine Si would be reluctant to violate the ancient and sacred tradition of Guest rights ("when a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof), as Tywin did in his planning and executing the Red Wedding that nearly decimated the core of House Stark. Si is more about "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," whereas Ni is about synthesizing what will be most helpful to their goal, and in the case of Tywin Lannister, it's the positioning of his family as the powerful, regal, fearsome and ferocious Lions of House Lannister.

 

[rav3n]

Oops, I messed up and was thinking of Tyrion, not Tywin. Tywin's an ESTJ. Way too traditionally rigid to be an ENTJ. It's all about the greatness of House Lannister and even though he despised Tyrion, any insult by anyone else to Tyrion, is an insult to House Lannister. That's logically inconsistent and hypocritical, considering his consistent abuse of Tyrion.

As far as Ragnar's concerned, he made a lot of mistakes, relative to forecasting and strategy. It was brain dead obvious King Egbert would shaft him, once the majority of the Viking fighting force left the farmers. Lothbrok also failed to scout Paris. His tactics were that of some planning but more in-the-moment innovation and heavy reliance on the fighting abilities of the Vikings. That and his inability to rein in his lust and addiction. These are heavy Se elements, not indicative of Ni aux but are indicative of Ni inferior. Rollo was just a dumber version of Ragnar. And this is coming from a major fan of the show since Day 1.

Ivar the Boneless is an ENTJ, albeit an insane one.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

Ah, you almost had me there, but you see, Tywin didn't violate guest right himself. No one was killed at his own home. He simply manipulated the Freys to do it, and in the books, he even justifies it this way. His ambition and orientation towards the future seems to be more of a product of Te-Ne loop, rather than Aux-Ni.

And that's why I'm more than convinced he's an ESTJ, because of the loop. I've considered Tywin an ENTJ myself before, but then I've realised he doesn't have a Te-Se loop, because he's not an Se user of any kind. Contrast Littlefinger, an actual ENTJ with a Te-Se loop, which commands the Dom-Te to act out in a way of taking matters into your own hands occasionally, and taking a few risks using Tert-Se. Littlefinger NEEDS to be there to put a knife to Ned's throat, he NEEDS to push Lysa out of the moon door, and he NEEDS to try and steal a kiss from Sansa every now and then, and he admits taking risks is often necessary to serve both his Te and Ni, even though his loops are mostly compulsive, and prove to be his undoing (Which is what loops usually tend to be). Tywin, on the other hand, using his Te-Ne loop, NEEDS to consider moves and motives of all of his potential and actual enemies and allies, NEEDS to consider any kind of maneuver necessary to win the war, and he NEEDS to consider all of the unnecessary risks he has to avoid, and all of this backs up his Si more often than not.

You will see that in all of his best scenes, he uses Si quite heavily, mostly in the conversations he has with his progeny, but ESPECIALLY in his dialogue with Tommen on Joffrey's funeral, where he tries to teach him about learning from history and always listening to good advice, even after well coming into age. Another ENTJ-ESTJ difference between Petyr and Tywin is also quite interestingly pointed out early in Season 3. Cersei talks to Baelish about obtaining proof about House Tyrell scheming against their family, saying how she can't simply tattle-tale them to Tywin, because he prefers concrete facts and evidence (S). Baelish then remarks how, to him personally, rumors are much more interesting (N).

 

[rav3n]

IMO, Baelish is an INTJ. He's very behind the scenes, puppet master and when brought into the light, loses his effectiveness.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

Nope, he's clearly externally-focused, and mostly interested in making his ends meet through the use of external, organised data, i.e., Dom-Te.

 

[Jaguar]

I dare anyone to present me an example of a healthy, heroic ENTJ in popular culture.

Infiltrate the CIA.

 

[rav3n]

Baelish has a subjective focus in mind, that of the end goal of being King at any cost. He twists, turns and manipulates behind the scenes, premised on this end goal. He has contingency plan after contingency plan. That's a Ni dom, Te aux.

If Baelish was a Te-dom, he'd be more focused on objective reality and more in the forefront, not strictly acting in an adviser capacity.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.

 

[rav3n]

Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.

Do you notice how I'm in your face while disagreeing? That's an ENTJ.

 

[Norexan]

I don't think he's an ENTJ, I've seen him typed as at least four or five different types, but I think that ESTJ seems more likely for him.

And that's why everybody thinks there is no hero ENTJ but I do think he is a healthy ENTJ because most of ENTJ who is displayed are unhealthy ones.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

There actually are a few, I'd say Nick Fury, Peggy Carter, Soldier: 76 (Overwatch), Princess Leia, Erwin Smith (Attack on Titan), Princess Bubblegum, maybe even Doctor Strange...

 

[Norexan]

Peggy Carter is INFP 100%
Nick Furry ESTJ
Leia ExTJ (unsure)

 

[rav3n]

Hetty Lange from NCIS LA is arguably an eNTJ. Some say she's an INTJ but you'll notice how she's protective of innocence. That's an ENTJ characteristic.

 

[Digital Lion]

Oops, I messed up and was thinking of Tyrion, not Tywin. Tywin's an ESTJ. Way too traditionally rigid to be an ENTJ. It's all about the greatness of House Lannister and even though he despised Tyrion, any insult by anyone else to Tyrion, is an insult to House Lannister. That's logically inconsistent and hypocritical, considering his consistent abuse of Tyrion.

1.) Yeah, Tyrion is an ENTP.

2.) I think that Tywin's preoccupation with greatness and his despising Tyrion are more so rooted in (inferior) Fi values and aspirations as opposed to anything involving Si. In the books, Tywin's father was incompetent, inefficient and a complete laughingstock--he was seen as a "toothless lion" and brought shame on their house. Subsequently, everything Tywin did (even his unparalleled cruelty at times) was done to restore honor, prestige and respect (via fear) to his family's name.

And Tyrion is despised for four reasons: 1.) It was widely speculated that he was the illegitimate, ill begotten bastard of the Mad King and Tywin's wife, Joanna, whom the Mad King allegedly raped. 2.) Tyrion's birth resulted in the death of his mother and Tywin's wife, Joanna, the only person Tywin ever truly loved. 3.) Tyrion is a disfigured little person who doesn't rise to the glorious, "golden" image of his other family members. 4.) Tyrion (earlier on) was a bit of a rabble rousing, womanizing drunkard that reminded Tywin of his own disgraced father (and for an even deeper interpretation, himself, which I address later on). Altogether, these things connect Tyrion to Tywin's underlying fear and hatred of powerlessness and weakness > Fi.

3.) And the inferior function's (Fi) underlying, subconscious agenda (being powerless but not wanting to be powerless) fuels the dominant function (Te) to consciously conceive and actualize said agenda (to be powerful or empowered), while the auxiliary + tertiary functions serve to make it happen. So then the question becomes, what does Tywin use to carry out his Te agenda? Does he rely on tradition (Si), in that he falls back on what has always worked according to his past experiences or does he look towards the future (Ni), and does whatever is necessary in order to get there. I concede that a legitimate argument can be made for both. In favor of Si, it could be argued that Tywin faithfully relies on extreme brutality and mercilessness because those things are "tried and true" and have always worked well for him. But it could also be argued that Tywin has always been able to intuit the correct path forward (Ni) and simply utilized brutality and mercilessness as the most effective means in materializing his goals.

But let's also remember that Tywin repeatedly reprimanded Tyrion for his love of whores and as soon as Tyrion was sentenced to death, Tywin took Tyrion's lover Shea (a former whore) into his bed. And it's also been speculated (because of certain clues) that Tywin was also an avid whore monger, though he was very discreet about his habits. This just leads me to believe that who Tywin actually was and what he actually stood for, differed from what he thought he needed to be and how he should act in order to accomplish his most important goal, not merely maintaining but strengthening/empowering his family's name and its correlating honor/prestige. High Si users are cognitively compelled towards upholding a certain high ground and unimpeachable standard (by the confines of the traditions they subscribe to/have been indoctrinated with) and so whore mongering would seem to be a violation of that, at the very least according to what Tywin purported to believe. But if Ni perceives that "walking a certain walk" is crucial in attaining its objectives, in this case, possessing/evoking/emanating "power," then it's more understandable that, in all actuality, Tywin is totes cool with whores, so long as everything is discreet and a certain image is maintained. I always thought that Si is inherently traditionalist and duty bound whereas Ni could be so or at least look like it if deemed necessary for goal fulfillment.

@Sh*ttyKarmaKid

Here are two good definitions of the respective loops:

"ESTJ Te-Ne loop: An ESTJ in an Ne-Te loop comes up with a million possibilities and tries to put these all into action without taking time to consider what is realistic, or consider structures or past lessons that would guide them. They become very externally driven, wanting external validation and recognition. They will become unable to settle and focus on a single plan, instead becoming stressed out as they are pulled in a million different directions."

"ENTJ Te-Se loop: An ENTJ in a Te-Se loop becomes power hunger, grabbing at anything that can bolster their image or control without considering the sensibility behind these actions, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They become overly concerned with “doing” all of the time, unable to let themselves stop to take a break. They become forceful, aggressive, insistent upon taking action whether or not it hurts those around them."

Sorry dude but the Te-Se loops sounds a helluva lot more like Tywin than the Te-Ne loop does.

1.) Despite the protests of Cersei and Tyrion, Tywin aggressively and insistently forces them into arrangements (with a Tyrell and Sansa Stark, respectively) in order to put limitations on the Tyrell's ascent to dominance. Talk about power hungry.

2.) After Tyrion learns of the Red Wedding, Tyrion remarks that the Northerners will never forget such an egregious act and Tywin responds with "good," in believing that such brutality would deter acts of rebellion in the future.

3.) I'd call an old man bedding his son's whore-friend to most definitely be a sensory experience, and of the flagrant and reckless variety. And to add, on the show at least, there were many a scene where Tywin was pouring Sweet wine not only into the glasses of others but of his as well.

And I agree with @bechimo that Littlefinger is an INTJ and all of the "needs" you mentioned could very well simply be Se grip. Se manifests more intensely (by way of over indulgence) in Inferior position and a bit more naturally and relaxed in the tertiary position.

As far as Ragnar's concerned, he made a lot of mistakes, relative to forecasting and strategy. It was brain dead obvious King Egbert would shaft him, once the majority of the Viking fighting force left the farmers. Lothbrok also failed to scout Paris. His tactics were that of some planning but more in-the-moment innovation and heavy reliance on the fighting abilities of the Vikings. That and his inability to rein in his lust and addiction. These are heavy Se elements, not indicative of Ni aux but are indicative of Ni inferior. Rollo was just a dumber version of Ragnar. And this is coming from a major fan of the show since Day 1.

An INTJ, an ENTJ and an ESTP might all successfully reach a certain objective, but chances are that the INTJ's plan was the most airtight and encountered the least amount of hiccups along the way because INTJs tend to be better long term planners than the other two. And the same is true for the ENTJ in comparison to the ESTP--my point is that the ENTJ is not infallible because though there is usually a plan before leaping, there is still an impulse to leap and act and that plan could be ill conceived or the action poorly timed. The ESTP is more inclined to plan as he leaps. Dom Se is all about acting now. And Ragnar pretty much always had a plan, regardless of how successful or smoothly enacted it ended up being.

Ivar the Boneless is an ENTJ, albeit an insane one.

Agreed.

 

[Sh*ttyKarmaKid]

[/I'd call an old man bedding his son's whore-friend to most definitely be a sensory experience, and of the flagrant and reckless variety. And to add, on the show at least, there were many a scene where Tywin was pouring Sweet wine not only into the glasses of others but of his as well. QUOTE]
Yeah, because an ESTJ couldn't possibly have any sexual needs at all. It's not even really reckless, he believes his son is getting executed first thing in the morning, so why not shag his ex-lover as a final insult. Not to mention, this is a man powerful enough to ruin or take a life of anyone trying to spread rumors of his possible indulgence in prostitutes. Also, don't know where you're going with the whole wine thing, I don't think that's a clear presentation of any cognitive function.

 

[notmyapples]

Yeah except he IS focused on objective reality, he doesn't always act in an adviser capacity (Every time he does, it's simply a role he plays, and he manipulates people he's advising into practically doing his bidding), and he's not really always as subtle as he thinks he is.

That's because he has tertiary Fe. And why do you think he is focused on objective reality? As you go on to say, he's behind the scenes, manipulating others. Sure, he understands objective reality but that is not the same as being focused on it. The implication that an ENTJ could bear being kept behind the scenes in their own master plan creates a hilarious imagery. Te is an extroverted judging function, dominant Te wants to be seen and regarded for it's judgement. Littlefinger wants power, but he doesn't need to be seen with it. In fact, he practically prides himself with being the hidden puppet master early on in the series. I can see a possible argument for INTJ, but not ENTJ.

 

[rav3n]

2.) I think that Tywin's preoccupation with greatness and his despising Tyrion are more so rooted in (inferior) Fi values and aspirations as opposed to anything involving Si. In the books, Tywin's father was incompetent, inefficient and a complete laughingstock--he was seen as a "toothless lion" and brought shame on their house. Subsequently, everything Tywin did (even his unparalleled cruelty at times) was done to restore honor, prestige and respect (via fear) to his family's name.

Now that I have more time and energy to reply, House greatness is not a Fi value. An ENTJ would self-revere over traditional house revere (Si). Christ, you're extremely verbose for an ENTJ. We're usually concise.

And Tyrion is despised for four reasons: 1.) It was widely speculated that he was the illegitimate, ill begotten bastard of the Mad King and Tywin's wife, Joanna, whom the Mad King allegedly raped. 2.) Tyrion's birth resulted in the death of his mother and Tywin's wife, Joanna, the only person Tywin ever truly loved. 3.) Tyrion is a disfigured little person who doesn't rise to the glorious, "golden" image of his other family members. 4.) Tyrion (earlier on) was a bit of a rabble rousing, womanizing drunkard that reminded Tywin of his own disgraced father (and for an even deeper interpretation, himself, which I address later on). Altogether, these things connect Tyrion to Tywin's underlying fear and hatred of powerlessness and weakness > Fi.

It's #2. The show and the books openly expressed this.

3.) And the inferior function's (Fi) underlying, subconscious agenda (being powerless but not wanting to be powerless) fuels the dominant function (Te) to consciously conceive and actualize said agenda (to be powerful or empowered), while the auxiliary + tertiary functions serve to make it happen.

The dominant and inferior functions are in opposition. They don't work together.

But let's also remember that Tywin repeatedly reprimanded Tyrion for his love of whores and as soon as Tyrion was sentenced to death, Tywin took Tyrion's lover Shea (a former whore) into his bed. And it's also been speculated (because of certain clues) that Tywin was also an avid whore monger, though he was very discreet about his habits. This just leads me to believe that who Tywin actually was and what he actually stood for, differed from what he thought he needed to be and how he should act in order to accomplish his most important goal, not merely maintaining but strengthening/empowering his family's name and its correlating honor/prestige. High Si users are cognitively compelled towards upholding a certain high ground and unimpeachable standard (by the confines of the traditions they subscribe to/have been indoctrinated with) and so whore mongering would seem to be a violation of that, at the very least according to what Tywin purported to believe. But if Ni perceives that "walking a certain walk" is crucial in attaining its objectives, in this case, possessing/evoking/emanating "power," then it's more understandable that, in all actuality, Tywin is totes cool with whores, so long as everything is discreet and a certain image is maintained. I always thought that Si is inherently traditionalist and duty bound whereas Ni could be so or at least look like it if deemed necessary for goal fulfillment.

Hypocrisy is a well known Si phenomenon since it's not focused on the big picture, lost among the trees. Look to Republicans and SJs.