[ENFP] ENFPs: Beating 'Em Off with a Stick (Not the ENFP, But Those They Encounter)

[AOA]

How do you balance your innate ability to establish emotional connections with other people with your desire to have MEANINGFUL emotional connections with others? Are you aware that what seems like a casual emotional connection for you, may seem to have more import for the other person? And, if so then what do you do about this?

It's called naivete - you grow out of it, eventually.

... Personally, speaking (purely) as a human being, it's in all of our natures to evolve from anything worldly we're provided with. It's a fascination, and I don't know - perhaps, being grateful with the life we're granted was all the proof required in a content existence. Wouldn't we agree?

 

[alexx]

Once I found out what type I was and I understood more clearly WHY I felt & behaved the way I do, and found this forum with so many other ENFP's that were similar and had similar issues, it was like a breath of fresh air.

I didn't feel strange anymore, I understood myself better, and could understand others. I am so grateful that I found this forum because it has changed my life completely.

As for ENFP's being arrogant or vain etc, I think perhaps people are reading too much into it. For me its the simple fact that there are others out there and its a lot of fun to interact with other ENFP's. For so long I felt really out of place and I no longer do.

So yeah, maybe we talk each other up and goof off at times - it's not a big thing and is applicable to any person finding others of their same type finally.

 

[simulatedworld]

What I really dislike (and please note I am speaking in general terms here, not about this specific topic) is when disadvantaged people start claiming that they have the monopoly on suffering: ie. "pretty/rich/famous/popular people CAN'T possibly have problems". Its so ignorant to think that. Yes, any idiot can see that they do have a great many advantages in life over the rest of us, however this doesn't mean that they are in anyway EXEMPT from problems of their own.

I don't think anybody claims that pretty/rich/famous/popular people don't have problems, just that their problems are trivially insignificant compared to those of truly disadvantaged people, so most people don't give a shit.

I have a very hard time sympathizing with "booo hoooo too many people of the opposite sex think I'm attractive!" That's like complaining that there's too much filet mignon in your fridge while little African children are starving to death every day. I don't want to hear that shit.

And you can't claim that Paris Hilton's daily problems somehow come out equal to those of a poor black mother of six working 80 hours a week at some bullshit minimum wage job in the ghetto just because "it's all subjective experience." Sure, Paris may have to worry about the media making fun of her, but that's a trivially small price to pay for the level of comfort and grandeur she gets to enjoy on a daily basis--and it sure as hell isn't even remotely comparable to the problems faced every day by real disadvantaged people dealing with real hardship. I just don't have any sympathy.

I care..and I'm somebody, damn it :steam:

There are a lot of people who are into usery out there and we won't even get into the social climbers. If you are beautiful, you have to wonder if someone just wants to date you or hang out with you for your looks. If you are rich and successful, you have to wonder if someone just wants to hang out with you for status or to try to get your money.

Boo fucking hoo. If you're grossly disfigured or otherwise extremely unattractive, you have to wonder what it's like for anyone to ever want to date (or potentially love) you at all, because you'll very rarely even have the opportunity. If you're dirt poor and totally unsuccessful, not a lot of people want to hang out with you in the first place.

I'm sure having to worry about people using you for your money is irritating and all; it's just a really trivial problem compared to people who are too ugly/unintelligent/socially incompetent/diseased/disfigured/disabled to have anyone wanting to date them in the first place. Put this in perspective. Rich/beautiful/successful people do have problems; they're just trivial bullshit most of the time when you consider the opposite end of the spectrum.

I have a friend who is very sweet and pretty, but has a personality that doesn't have mass appeal. Guys are constantly after her purely becuase she is cute and have no intention of actually having a relationship with her. She is crushed time and again...it's not easy for her.

I have a friend whose face was horribly disfigured in a car accident. No one has had any interest in dating her in over 20 years. Who do you think is getting the short end of the stick here?

Do you think your friend would trade her beauty for gross disfigurement just to avoid her dating problem? I doubt it, because being beautiful confers a hell of a lot more advantage than disadvantage, and she knows that as well as anyone.

I'm not saying it's the worst "problem" in the world to have, but there are still real challenges that come along with the "good things" and I have compassion for that. It's clear you don't...but it doesn't mean nobody does.

It's just that there are so many enormous advantages that come with wealth/beauty/power/status that the disadvantages, while still negative, are trivial by comparison. I'm not saying those problems don't exist, just that they're trivial in comparison to people with real problems, and are typically a small price to pay for the huge amount of proportional advantage.

If being rich sucked that badly, rich people would give away all their money. If being pretty sucked that badly, pretty girls wouldn't wear makeup and clothes designed to accentuate their beauty.

If they really want to, even beautiful people can deliberately make themselves look unattractive. They just don't want to because they like all the advantage associated with being beautiful, but they also like to whine about the occasional proportionally trivial inconvenience caused by it. If you really hate being pretty that much, shave your head, go out in cheap soiled clothing and stop wearing makeup. Guys will stop hitting on you--I promise.

 

[SillySapienne]

^ Yes. NPD is most common in E__P types.

Provide research, please.

The E, I can understand, but the E__P-NPD correlation, I cannot.

My highly introverted INTP father had many NPD traits, many.

Fi, true Fi, not, ooooh, I wanna be cool, and rebellious, and compassionate so I'll test as Fi, seems pretty antithetical to narcissism.

It could happen, I guess.

But what a horrible, faulty, disgusting manifestation of Fi, ew!!

 

[simulatedworld]

Provide research, please.

The E, I can understand, but the E__P-NPD correlation, I cannot.

My highly introverted INTP father had many NPD traits, many.

Fi, true Fi, not, ooooh, I wanna be cool, and rebellious, and compassionate so I'll test as Fi, seems pretty antithetical to narcissism.

It could happen, I guess.

But what a horrible, faulty, disgusting manifestation of Fi, ew!!

Fi could strongly support or strongly oppose narcissistic tendencies, depending on the individual.

I don't have any research to support the EP association with NPD; it just seems the obvious conclusion given what I know about the types.

Feel free not to believe me if you don't want to.

 

[Risen]

See my ENFP addiction thread.

 

[Southern Kross]

I don't think anybody claims that pretty/rich/famous/popular people don't have problems, just that their problems are trivially insignificant compared to those of truly disadvantaged people, so most people don't give a shit.

I have a very hard time sympathizing with "booo hoooo too many people of the opposite sex think I'm attractive!" That's like complaining that there's too much filet mignon in your fridge while little African children are starving to death every day. I don't want to hear that shit.

And you can't claim that Paris Hilton's daily problems somehow come out equal to those of a poor black mother of six working 80 hours a week at some bullshit minimum wage job in the ghetto just because "it's all subjective experience." Sure, Paris may have to worry about the media making fun of her, but that's a trivially small price to pay for the level of comfort and grandeur she gets to enjoy on a daily basis--and it sure as hell isn't even remotely comparable to the problems faced every day by real disadvantaged people dealing with real hardship. I just don't have any sympathy.

Um, perhaps you failed to notice but I actually addressed the 'starving children' example in my argument. :rolli: However, it does seem like you missed the point entirely and just interpreted it all as you wanted to (which, lets face it, is a running trend with you).

EVERYONE'S problems will seem trivial if you compare them to someone who is worse off. Paris Hilton's complaints may be insulting to that poor black mother in the ghetto. However, the poor black mother's experience may appear entirely preferable to someone living in a famine ridden or war torn country. And there is no clear cut, objective way to evaluate suffering. Is physical pain worse than emotional pain? Is extreme loss harder to cope with when you grow up with nothing or when you've had a cushy life? You can't irrefutably prove that one person's pain is more legitimate than another's. Its not always that straight-forward. For example, some studies have found that, in general, poor people in developing nations are actually happier than those in developed nations, even without all the comforts of wealth and security in their life.

And if you actually read closely, I said quite clearly that no one was claiming that this was a profoundly terrible affliction. No one postulated that unwanted attention in ENFPs is comparable to child slavery or AIDS in the developing world. Your hyperbolic overreaction to the subject matter makes no sense at all. The discussed situation is CLEARLY trivial in the greater scheme of things however, nowhere did anyone ask for your holier-than-thou assesment as to whether this is noteworthy in the context of the entire history of human suffering. Christ, if we did that for most of the threads at this forum, we'd never talk about anything!

Do you know what your argument sounds like?

Person 1: Ugh, I feel like shit. I must have the flu.
Person 2: Stop bitching. There are people out there with cancer.

You win. There will ALWAYS be someone that suffers more. I must admit, however, I didn't realize that misery was a competitive sport.

How about you actually contribute to the present debate for once rather than inventing your own imaginary one with straw man arguments to boot?

 

[Amargith]

Amen to that.

 

[simulatedworld]

Um, perhaps you failed to notice but I actually addressed the 'starving children' example in my argument. :rolli: However, it does seem like you missed the point entirely and just interpreted it all as you wanted to (which, lets face it, is a running trend with you).

EVERYONE'S problems will seem trivial if you compare them to someone who is worse off. Paris Hilton's complaints may be insulting to that poor black mother in the ghetto. However, the poor black mother's experience may appear entirely preferable to someone living in a famine ridden or war torn country. And there is no clear cut, objective way to evaluate suffering. Is physical pain worse than emotional pain? Is extreme loss harder to cope with when you grow up with nothing or when you've had a cushy life? You can't irrefutably prove that one person's pain is more legitimate than another's. Its not always that straight-forward. For example, some studies have found that, in general, poor people in developing nations are actually happier than those in developed nations, even without all the comforts of wealth and security in their life.

And if you actually read closely, I said quite clearly that no one was claiming that this was a profoundly terrible affliction. No one postulated that unwanted attention in ENFPs is comparable to child slavery or AIDS in the developing world. Your hyperbolic overreaction to the subject matter makes no sense at all. The discussed situation is CLEARLY trivial in the greater scheme of things however, nowhere did anyone ask for your holier-than-thou assesment as to whether this is noteworthy in the context of the entire history of human suffering. Christ, if we did that for most of the threads at this forum, we'd never talk about anything!

Do you know what your argument sounds like?

Person 1: Ugh, I feel like shit. I must have the flu.
Person 2: Stop bitching. There are people out there with cancer.

You win. There will ALWAYS be someone that suffers more. I must admit, however, I didn't realize that misery was a competitive sport.

How about you actually contribute to the present debate for once rather than inventing your own imaginary one with straw man arguments to boot?

sigh

The point wasn't that any suffering is invalid whenever there exists worse suffering somewhere else. It's just that a condition which confers vastly more advantage than disadvantage is generally not something people want to hear you bitch about.

Your flu example doesn't fit here. Having the flu doesn't confer any sort of advantage, just suffering, so telling someone suffering from the flu to stop complaining because some people have cancer is both A) silly, and B) not what I was talking about. (What was that about straw men...?)

On the other hand, being rich does confer a vast amount of advantage which grossly outstrips its disadvantages, so nobody wants to hear you bitch about how much it sucks to be rich.

Being beautiful does confer a vast amount of advantage which grossly outstrips its disadvantages, so nobody wants to hear you bitch about how much it sucks to beautiful.

I'm not just using "Well it could be worse!" as a way to invalidate all forms of suffering that could potentially be worse, and if that's what you got from my post then you weren't paying much attention.

I was pointing out that whining about something that does you far more good than bad is obnoxious and irritating. Think about a little kid whining, "Man, my parents are so crappy for making me come home by 11!" Yeah, well, they also spend thousands of dollars a year on supporting your well-being, kid, so shut it.

If you want to whine about having the flu, be my guest--the flu doesn't do you any good, so the whining about the proportionally small negative aspects of something that provides much greater positive advantages doesn't come into play.

Would you trade having the flu for not having the flu? Sure. Would pretty girls trade being pretty for being ugly? Fat chance. This is why I don't want to hear them complain about being pretty.

As for ENFPs and attracting people, I think Lauren Ashley's post sums up this position well:

Whenever I hear an ENFP complaining about too much attention, I have to roll my eyes. They consciously behave in ways that draw others toward them to, and surprise, surprise, others are drawn to them. Connecting with people is something they thrive on, and yes, I'd have to say it feeds their ego to an extent. Something in them likes that they can have an effect on people, and have others adore them so. And if everyone were to stop paying attention to them today, they would be hopeless.

Bolded part = the crux. Hearing ENFPs complain about getting too much attention and having too many people wanting to connect with them is annoying because the ability to connect deeply with people provides much bigger benefits than negative side effects, not just because I can imagine a scenario in which their suffering could somehow potentially be worse.

Great job on your own though.

 

[Amargith]

It is your choice not to listen to them venting as you find it uncomfortable or annoying. But then you're better off just ignoring these threads, instead of coming in here and making people who are just venting feel guilty about daring to have feelings that they wanna vent, even if you disagree with what caused those feelings.


As far as I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), she didn't ask for a fix-it. Or a reality check. She was venting and asking if others have the same problems. That indicates a need to just be heard and feel like she isn't alone in this. Doesn't mean she cannot handle this on her own, or considers it so wrong that she has to bear this cross. Everyone sometimes gets fed up, even with luxury problems. Hell, most of our problems are luxury problems compared to other people in other countries. Doesn't mean they cannot sometimes make your day suck, or make you wonder wtf is going on, or for that matter, that it is something you usually enjoy but when done too much (too much of a good thing..), it gets a bit much to handle.




Edit: mmm..so...are you possibly also venting? In need to be heard? Perhaps you should make your own thread, as this clearly annoys you, and others like LA have the same response (rolling of eyes). Feel free to

 

[simulatedworld]

It is your choice not to listen to them venting as you find it uncomfortable or annoying. But then you're better off just ignoring these threads, instead of coming in here and making people who are just venting feel guilty about daring to have feelings that they wanna vent, even if you disagree with what caused those feelings.

Aren't you, at this very moment, trying to make me feel guilty for venting my feelings on this topic?

 

[Amargith]

Aren't you, at this very moment, trying to make me feel guilty for venting my feelings on this topic?

See edit

The reason it took me a while to figure it out is coz you are relating your story in a way that makes it like a logical argument, a case. Instead of saying..hey, I'm just venting. Though I did notice you went personal here and there, it didn't register as venting at first

 

[simulatedworld]

Edit: mmm..so...are you possibly also venting? In need to be heard? Perhaps you should make your own thread, as this clearly annoys you, and others like LA have the same response (rolling of eyes). Feel free to

If you feel that my posts are off topic, you should probably report them to moderators, who will decide whether they should be moved/deleted.

If you don't want to read them, there's this really nifty "ignore" feature.

 

[Amargith]

? That was hardly what I was referring to

I was just merely suggesting that if you feel strongly about this topic and want to 'vent' on it, you might wanna do it in a new thread. Why? Coz it gives the OP a way to gain what she wanted out of her thread, and you a place to discuss this at lenght

 

[simulatedworld]

You weren't suggesting that my posts don't belong in this thread by suggesting that I start a different thread in order to express them?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

As far as I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), she didn't ask for a fix-it.

Wrong.

Why try to remember, when you can simply go back to the original post?

How do you balance your innate ability to establish emotional connections with other people with your desire to have MEANINGFUL emotional connections with others? Are you aware that what seems like a casual emotional connection for you, may seem to have more import for the other person? And, if so then what do you do about this?

S/he's asking for a solution, not "venting."

Edit: mmm..so...are you possibly also venting? In need to be heard? Perhaps you should make your own thread, as this clearly annoys you, and others like LA have the same response (rolling of eyes). Feel free to

I'm not venting. Let's be clear here: I don't much care about the OP and any issues s/he has, either way. Just because I give a response that doesn't pat the OP on the back doesn't mean I have a problem with them or I'm somehow disturbed.

However, I do find it hypocritical that others here, such as yourself, have attributed connotations to my post that were never there while berating me for supposedly doing that with the OP. But I should have known that would be exactly what you all would do, eh?

 

[Southern Kross]

sigh

The point wasn't that any suffering is invalid whenever there exists worse suffering somewhere else. It's just that a condition which confers vastly more advantage than disadvantage is generally not something people want to hear you bitch about.

Your flu example doesn't fit here. Having the flu doesn't confer any sort of advantage, just suffering, so telling someone suffering from the flu to stop complaining because some people have cancer is both A) silly, and B) not what I was talking about. (What was that about straw men...?)

On the other hand, being rich does confer a vast amount of advantage which grossly outstrips its disadvantages, so nobody wants to hear you bitch about how much it sucks to be rich.

Being beautiful does confer a vast amount of advantage which grossly outstrips its disadvantages, so nobody wants to hear you bitch about how much it sucks to beautiful.

I'm not just using "Well it could be worse!" as a way to invalidate all forms of suffering that could potentially be worse, and if that's what you got from my post then you weren't paying much attention.

I was pointing out that whining about something that does you far more good than bad is obnoxious and irritating. Think about a little kid whining, "Man, my parents are so crappy for making me come home by 11!" Yeah, well, they also spend thousands of dollars a year on supporting your well-being, kid, so shut it.

If you want to whine about having the flu, be my guest--the flu doesn't do you any good, so the whining about the proportionally small negative aspects of something that provides much greater positive advantages doesn't come into play.

Would you trade having the flu for not having the flu? Sure. Would pretty girls trade being pretty for being ugly? Fat chance. This is why I don't want to hear them complain about being pretty.

As for ENFPs and attracting people, I think Lauren Ashley's post sums up this position well:



Bolded part = the crux. Hearing ENFPs complain about getting too much attention and having too many people wanting to connect with them is annoying because the ability to connect deeply with people provides much bigger benefits than negative side effects, not just because I can imagine a scenario in which their suffering could somehow potentially be worse.

Great job on your own though.

To explain the example: Person 2 believes that people with cancer (read: like poor/insignificant people) would be grateful for good health in general (read: like Paris Hilton's wealth/fame), even if it meant having the flu (read: like her trivial issue with privacy), so the problem pales in comparison to the general advantage.

You are wrong to evaluate a person's disavantages in relation to their advantages. Problems are problems; and the should be seen as separate to a person's advantages in life whether they are related or not. There is a flip side to every privilege. Yes, the flip side may be something that is easier to live than going without the privilege at all (if that is an option - some are things you're born with). But surely you don't expect people to sit there are be eternally grateful for their gifts every second of the day. Nor does being grateful for your privileges magically diminish the problems that come with it. Knowing you have good health in general isn't much comfort when you have the flu. Its pretty hard to maintain gratitude through shitty situations even if you are lucky in general.

Also, please don't backtrack and deny that you compare and evaluate suffering in general. As you said earlier:

I don't think anybody claims that pretty/rich/famous/popular people don't have problems, just that their problems are trivially insignificant compared to those of truly disadvantaged people, so most people don't give a shit.

You seem to think anyone that has comparative adavantages in life cannot experience real problems and that they should shut up so as to not offend the 'truly' suffering. And you do pull the "it could be worse" in your example of the teenager (among others). You might as well have said, "It could be worse. You could be stuck in foster care with sadistic foster parents that beat you daily".

Anyway, if all you wanted to do is complain about how ENFPs aren't grateful enough for their gifts, you've made your point. Now move on with the discussion or leave.

 

[Amargith]

You weren't suggesting that my posts don't belong in this thread by suggesting that I start a different thread in order to express them?

I was, but not because I'm annoyed at it or find it report-worthy, I just figured it would be something you might wanna explore further in your own thread. It was a simple suggestion.

Wrong.

Why try to remember, when you can simply go back to the original post?



S/he's asking for a solution, not "venting."



I'm not venting. Let's be clear here: I don't much care about the OP and any issues s/he has, either way. Just because I give a response that doesn't pat the OP on the back doesn't mean I have a problem with them or I'm somehow disturbed.

However, I do find it hypocritical that others here, such as yourself, have attributed connotations to my post that were never there while berating me for supposedly doing that with the OP. But I should have known that would be exactly what you all would do, eh?

I did state 'seemed' didn't I? Anycase, it wasn't meant to be hypocritical or berating, it was a mere suggestion. I've noticed that it is a topic that regularly surfaces, hence the suggestion.

As for the problemsolving..I guess she did ask for it, but more in a 'do you relate ot this`?' way...which apparenlty you don't or haven't stated yet that you do, I think (yes, I am too lazy to go check). As for the berating...I have to say that to me feels more like what you're doing, but that could be that infamous Fe vs Fi thing again I guess *sigh*

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I did state 'seemed' didn't I? Anycase, it wasn't meant to be hypocritical or berating, it was a mere suggestion. I've noticed that it is a topic that regularly surfaces, hence the suggestion.

Yes, and I've noticed that ENFPs bring this topic up often, in so many forms. Should they stop posting these topics?

Sorry, you're not in any position to tell others where they should or should not be posting. My post and simulated's, marmalade's, etc, were on topic.

As for the problemsolving..I guess she did ask for it, but more in a 'do you relate ot this`?' way...which apparenlty you don't or haven't stated yet that you do, I think (yes, I am too lazy to go check). As for the berating...I have to say that to me feels more like what you're doing, but that could be that infamous Fe vs Fi thing again I guess *sigh*

I can see how you would consider my post berating, and maybe it was. But yours and others were too, as well as condescending.

 

[Amargith]

Well it wasn't meant that way, for the third time, it was a suggestion. I don't really care about tangents in topics usually, coz i do it myself. In this case though, it seemed like a good idea to split the two topics, one to allow relating and sharing of experience to go on and the other to addresss the concerns you've both expressed.

I'd appreciate if you stop throwing words as berating and condescending etc around. It would be nice not to have to get in a catfight over this stuff, not worth the energy.