[ENFP] enfps are evil

[magpie]

You have already changed what you are saying. Earlier I asked you to clarify. You wrote "Er, I do think intentions impact outcomes. But I don't think having positive intent will necessarily make a positive outcome more likely. Which I think is pretty easy to understand, actually, even if you don't agree."

It's easy to see the flip side of the argument being ABSURD because our cognitive biases won't stop us from seeing it. If I want to hurt you, I'm more likely to hurt you. If I want to help you, I'm more likely to help you. The operative word her is likely. Intentions don't always lead to better outcomes. The operative word in that sentence being always.

Additionally, people have multiple layers of intent. But in any given situation usually a few are the main drivers of behavior/actions. The point is, or my point is, that intentions matter A LOT. You started off saying they do not. Actions matter as well. Which is exactly what I started off saying. To me though, over any sustainable period of time, in any relationship, I would take intentions over outcomes any day of the week. Does that change the fact that something bad might have happened, NO. ... no one is arguing that. Anyway this is absurd why am I even talking about this for this long. You will cherry pick the conversation anyway.

I feel like you are taking this really personally without realizing that I have no opinion on whether ENFPs are evil people and am merely talking about people as a whole, regardless of type. I hope you know that because I'm getting the sense that it's probably important to clarify.

But I feel strongly that I myself would take into consideration outcomes over intentions in any sort of relationship. Regarding inentions as more important than outcomes sets you up to remain in situations where you are being hurt by someone, because you consider the fact that they don't intend to hurt you more important than the fact that they are hurting you. So I don't know. I think beyond that, I honestly don't know what you are saying.

And if I am changing what I'm saying by talking to you, then I'm glad that your words are having an influence on me.

 

[andresimon]

I feel like you are taking this really personally without realizing that I have no opinion on whether ENFPs are evil people and am merely talking about people as a whole, regardless of type. I hope you know that because I'm getting the sense that it's probably important to clarify.

But I feel strongly that I myself would take into consideration outcomes over intentions in any sort of relationship. Regarding inentions as more important than outcomes sets you up to remain in situations where you are being hurt by someone, because you consider the fact that they don't intend to hurt you more important than the fact that they are hurting you. So I don't know. I think beyond that, I honestly don't know what you are saying.

And if I am changing what I'm saying by talking to you, then I'm glad that your words are having an influence on me.

I'm not taking it personally. People weigh words too heavily. I'm focused on the dialogue and the merits behind what is being said as well the implications in the real world because how you feel isn't unique to you, it generalizes pretty heavily.

If someone has positive intentions and is consistently hurting you then they are incompetent or possibly they/you are not accurate in terms of what the intentions are. Also keep in mind, ultimately YOU must judge what you consider "hurtful." I know MANY people who seem to not get along with anyone, but are they hurting people, no... But people seem to hate them and think they are "xyz" and thus they get the short end of the stick. On the flip side I see other people TRULY hurting people around them and yet they seem to be admired and liked. Rarely do I see these things align properly. The point is you started off saying outcomes matter more then intentions but beyond that you said intentions don't have a large impact on outcomes and I think the second part is just simply false. If you are dealing with an idiot then no matter what they do they will probably hurt you or they may accidentally help you but if they are well intentioned they will hurt you less.

As I said. Intentions matter and so do actions. They both matter. That's what I was saying in the beginning. Then layer by layer we got to, what matters more. Intentions matter more. Keep in mind intentions are not static, they do change and people have many layers of intent. So it isn't so black and white.

It is a good idea to focus on peoples actions but then again, given a relatively calm environment, you will find that people can more or less fly under the radar. The minute shit hits the fan though, all of a sudden you realize who the cowards are. To me I always look at actions over a sustained period of time and make a judgement call about someones character. Once I've identified their true nature I tend to stick with that. On a day in and day out basis they can do a lot of things that seem to contradict my assessment but later I realize that it wasn't a contradiction, just an angle I missed.

Character, motive, intentions...matter. They matter a lot.

 

[magpie]

I'm not taking it personally. People weigh words too heavily. I'm focused on the dialogue and the merits behind what is being said as well the implications in the real world because how you feel isn't unique to you, it generalizes pretty heavily.

If someone has positive intentions and is consistently hurting you then they are incompetent or possibly they/you are not accurate in terms of what the intentions are. Also keep in mind, ultimately YOU must judge what you consider "hurtful." I know MANY people who seem to not get along with anyone, but are they hurting people, no... But people seem to hate them and think they are "xyz" and thus they get the short end of the stick. On the flip side I see other people TRULY hurting people around them and yet they seem to be admired and liked. Rarely do I see these things align properly. The point is you started off saying outcomes matter more then intentions but beyond that you said intentions don't have a large impact on outcomes and I think the second part is just simply false. If you are dealing with an idiot then no matter what they do they will probably hurt you or they may accidentally help you but if they are well intentioned they will hurt you less.

As I said. Intentions matter and so do actions. They both matter. That's what I was saying in the beginning. Then layer by layer we got to, what matters more. Intentions matter more. Keep in mind intentions are not static, they do change and people have many layers of intent. So it isn't so black and white.

It is a good idea to focus on peoples actions but then again, given a relatively calm environment, you will find that people can more or less fly under the radar. The minute shit hits the fan though, all of a sudden you realize who the cowards are. To me I always look at actions over a sustained period of time and make a judgement call about someones character. Once I've identified their true nature I tend to stick with that. On a day in and day out basis they can do a lot of things that seem to contradict my assessment but later I realize that it wasn't a contradiction, just an angle I missed.

Character, motive, intentions...matter. They matter a lot.

Okay, I'm glad you aren't taking this personally. And thank you for explaining. I do believe that intentions influence outcomes, but I guess I don't believe that an intention is often going to be in line with an outcome. And I think that is the key reason for our divergence in opinion. I understand what you are saying though. But I think there are very few people who act with the intention to hurt someone. I mean, even a murderer probably has a good, reasonable intention or intentions that they themselves understand, believe in and know to be right. But that doesn't mean that their actions aren't evil. People who do harmful things can be liked and people who don't can be disliked. I am not harming you, yet we are still not getting along very well. Like I said, I have rarely been hurt by people who desire to hurt me. This could be because people usually don't desire to harm others (even when they actively do), so I tend not to encounter people who actually desire to hurt me. I agree, it is much more complex then that. And yet, they have. I am basing this off experience. I'm not theorizing. And like I said, if you have experienced things differently then my way of thinking probably won't hold true for you personally. Which is fine.

 

[Forever]

How are INTJ's the most evil type? They're the most funny type.

It's the INFJ's who are lord supreme of evil, with Fi clean from their functional stack morality is all a game of FEELS.

Go read simulatedworld's description of INFJ's. You will see then that we're amoral beings ready to do what we want. If that involves using Fe to have a group follow us against another group, so be it.

And with Ti's rationalization, anything can happen.

Then with the beautiful eye-pleasing aesthetics of inferior Se, we can get away with anything.

 

[andresimon]

Okay, I'm glad you aren't taking this personally. And thank you for explaining. I do believe that intentions influence outcomes, but I guess I don't believe that an intention is often going to be in line with an outcome. And I think that is the key reason for our divergence in opinion. I understand what you are saying though. But I think there are very few people who act with the intention to hurt someone. I mean, even a murderer probably has a good, reasonable intention or intentions that they themselves understand, believe in and know to be right. But that doesn't mean that their actions aren't evil. People who do harmful things can be liked and people who don't can be disliked. I am not harming you, yet we are still not getting along very well. Like I said, I have rarely been hurt by people who desire to hurt me. This could be because people usually don't desire to harm others (even when they actively do), so I tend not to encounter people who actually desire to hurt me. I agree, it is much more complex then that. And yet, they have. I am basing this off experience. I'm not theorizing. And like I said, if you have experienced things differently then my way of thinking probably won't hold true for you personally. Which is fine.

Intention isn't generally what people say. Rationalizations are not the same as intentions. I can see what you are saying as well but I'm just really good at uncovering peoples motives and seeing the various layers of motivation. I've done it for myself 1st and so it is easier for me to spot various patterns in others. At the core, it all goes back to intent. Even if that intent is just to meet the basic need to survive or to avoid pain and gain pleasure. Then again you find people going against their own survival instinct in order to be a hero.

Behind every action is intent, conscious or not.

 

[Ribonuke]

intentions and goals are not needed to be able to accomplish destructive acts... do glaciers and volcanoes have intent behind their actions? How about someone who loses consciousness whole driving and mows into a crowded market and kills and injures a good number of people? They don't have any intentions or goals to do so... it just happens

also, I believe you were being informed that your tone was less than civil [MENTION=24698]andresimon[/MENTION] ... whether the thread is about ENFPs being evil or not, it's still on a private forum

Amen. This is all I was attempting to point out earlier; if an ENFP is trying to defend themselves as not 'evil' by NOT being civil, they aren't making the best of arguments for themselves.

personally, I think that all of humanity is pretty self serving and asshole-ish in general... but at least they are fascinating and capable of some amazingly kind acts as well

This is also something I admit I failed to mention earlier; I think most people are actually self-serving, whether they are aware of it or not. It's not that I don't believe in "goodness", but I don't think it's safe for any type to deny the fact that they are capable of being evil.

My experiences may lead to a conclusion you find erroneous, but they are still based off of concrete experiences that I'm inclined to take more seriously than someone else's words on a screen. I never denied that ESTPs and ENTJs are capable of being evil, but you did resort to a somewhat emotional attack and appeal in response to something I attempted to use logic to back up. Yet you spent more time telling me about how I was wrong and attacking my own experiences than by trying to give concrete examples as to how ENFPs are NOT evil. It has the appearance of being self-serving. Self-serving, if not already evil, is but a hop, skip and a jump away from being evil.

I'm only asking that ENFPs open themselves up to being aware that they can be just as destructive/evil as any other type, but that their overwhelming desire to be 'good' often blinds them to this possibility. (Again, my own experiences would say they are actually one of the more destructive times, but in order to remain 'civil', I am, again, providing the disclaimer that this is my own experience and shouldn't be taken as me trying to proclaim that my one, narrow slice of reality is the ultimate truth...if there is an ultimate truth, that is.)

you are an emotional porcupine

It's official; this thread is now gold.

 

[EcK]

once upon a time I thought working with 75% enfps was like a magical adventure. After four years I have seen every possible version of evil behavior we can exhibit... I have seen my own evil that I simply never admitted.

observations of our obliviousness or unwillingness to accept what we can truly be?

how can we be both so innocent and so destructive?

Do you work at the chocolate factory? Because addicts exhibit non-typical behavior

 

[EcK]

I think my 5 year old daughter may be ENFP. Yes you can all pray for me etc

Sir, I'm afraid we'll have to take her behind the shed and do what we gotta do

Btw the 'children' classification I Find most relevant doesn't contain F or T, because lets face it kids are not so great with separating logic and emotions.
So that would be an ENP child. Meaning there is still hope !

 

[EcK]

I've read somewhere that once in a generation an ENFP with a soul is born ?
is it true ?

What's the point of this thread again?

 

[EcK]

And here I thought my type was generally regarded as the most evil.

Huzzah, vindicated at last!

THe purpose of this thread is clearly to matchup evil intjs with evil enfps to create a super race of sociopathic business people.
So you're not out of the woods just yet.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Sir, I'm afraid we'll have to take her behind the shed and do what we gotta do

Btw the 'children' classification I Find most relevant doesn't contain F or T, because lets face it kids are not so great with separating logic and emotions.
So that would be an ENP child. Meaning there is still hope !

Between a ENTP daughter and a ENFP daughter, I feel I would prefer the ENFP. After all, both do destructive paths in young adulthood, but one engages feelings a bit better than the other.

And I suspect my young daughter is a ENP..... I was hoping things would get easier, lol

 

[Ribonuke]

Do you work at the chocolate factory? Because addicts exhibit non-typical behavior

Sir, I'm afraid we'll have to take her behind the shed and do what we gotta do

Btw the 'children' classification I Find most relevant doesn't contain F or T, because lets face it kids are not so great with separating logic and emotions.
So that would be an ENP child. Meaning there is still hope !

I've read somewhere that once in a generation an ENFP with a soul is born ?
is it true ?

What's the point of this thread again?

THe purpose of this thread is clearly to matchup evil intjs with evil enfps to create a super race of sociopathic business people.
So you're not out of the woods just yet.

I take back what I said earlier; NOW this thread has become gold.

 

[Cellmold]

I'm a good monster.

 

[Cygnus]

Lel at all the enfps in this thread getting buttdefensive about being "evil."

Is evil even a thing? I'd rather be evil than a lot of things. Like blind or crippled.

 

[prplchknz]

Oh look its attack ENFPs on baseless info cuz an ENFP once stole my pudding cup week so therefore that's what all ENFP's do and therefore are evil

 

[Betty Blue]

Oh look its attack ENFPs on baseless info cuz an ENFP once stole my pudding cup week so therefore that's what all ENFP's do and therefore are evil

LOL yes, I realise there is that element... I really laughed out loud when I noticed the ESTP/ENFP classic interaction...

I have noticed than when ESTP's actually 'see' the Fi they have a bit of a freak out. Similarly the ENFP freak when they realise that there is no soft gooey.

 

[prplchknz]

LOL yes, I realise there is that element... I really laughed out loud when I noticed the ESTP/ENFP classic interaction...

I have noticed than when ESTP's actually 'see' the Fi they have a bit of a freak out. Similarly the ENFP freak when they realise that there is no soft gooey.

I can't take claims serious like this. not what you're saying but 2 ENFPs having melt downs, probably something else going on and has very little to do with them being ENFP. i just say get a new pudding cup it will be ok, and i get accused of not letting things go. i don't if i keep getting reminded all the time or it's fresh but a week or 2 after and no reminders i'm pretty much over it. i dunno i think people are strange.

yeah i notice that people mis interpret your intentions and then i worry that people are gonna mis interpret my intenions and then i'm like what if i'm msinterpreting my own intentions and its a spiral down and i end up not being sure of the truth.

 

[Ribonuke]

I have noticed than when ESTP's actually 'see' the Fi they have a bit of a freak out. Similarly the ENFP freak when they realise that there is no soft gooey.

I completely own up to this; I don't have positive reactions to Introverted Feeling when it's used as a weapon and/or obstructively.

At the same time, I'm a person who sees emotions as so fluctuating that they aren't usually a reliable indicator for making a decision. When people get so defensive about my calling attention to the fact that relying upon emotions first to make decisions can be destructive, I don't really get offended; it's not like I actually care whether or not I am offending the person, but I do try to take care how to phrase so as NOT to offend them because they're less likely to hear you out if you do. After all, "You attract a lot more flies with sugar than vinegar."

Apparently, I'm discovering that people get offended no matter how you dress it up; they'll read what they want to read because they're already on a crusade.

I don't like letting the soft, gooey side of me show merely on the account that it becomes easier for others to manipulate and/or take advantage of you than if you maintain your defenses. Yeah, sure, one can look like a spiky iron fortress that tramples over everything, but at least you're not vulnerable when you inevitably encounter another spiky fortress.

 

[andresimon]

Amen. This is all I was attempting to point out earlier; if an ENFP is trying to defend themselves as not 'evil' by NOT being civil, they aren't making the best of arguments for themselves.



This is also something I admit I failed to mention earlier; I think most people are actually self-serving, whether they are aware of it or not. It's not that I don't believe in "goodness", but I don't think it's safe for any type to deny the fact that they are capable of being evil.

My experiences may lead to a conclusion you find erroneous, but they are still based off of concrete experiences that I'm inclined to take more seriously than someone else's words on a screen. I never denied that ESTPs and ENTJs are capable of being evil, but you did resort to a somewhat emotional attack and appeal in response to something I attempted to use logic to back up. Yet you spent more time telling me about how I was wrong and attacking my own experiences than by trying to give concrete examples as to how ENFPs are NOT evil. It has the appearance of being self-serving. Self-serving, if not already evil, is but a hop, skip and a jump away from being evil.

I'm only asking that ENFPs open themselves up to being aware that they can be just as destructive/evil as any other type, but that their overwhelming desire to be 'good' often blinds them to this possibility. (Again, my own experiences would say they are actually one of the more destructive times, but in order to remain 'civil', I am, again, providing the disclaimer that this is my own experience and shouldn't be taken as me trying to proclaim that my one, narrow slice of reality is the ultimate truth...if there is an ultimate truth, that is.)



It's official; this thread is now gold.

I love how you are responding to other people's posts and not mine directly. You are using "logical" arguments? Lol, when you draw a parallel from not being "civil" to being "evil" and try to imply that I'm proving your point, you see that as logical? LOL

Sigh where do I begin...lol

1. I've stated earlier that an ENFP's cognitive patterns is less likely to produce what most people would agree to be "evil."
2. You went from uniformly saying all ENFP's are evil to now saying, "I don't think it's safe for any type to deny the fact that they are capable of being evil." I never denied that no ENFP's are evil, just that it is rare. Talking to you is like talking to a retard.
3. Emotional doesn't = illogical. Yet another logical fallacy.
4. lol....self-serving is a hop jump and skip away from being evil and yet earlier you stated that most people are self-serving. Ic, so pretty much if not already evil, everyone is very close to being evil.

I've already accomplished my goal. Which is to prove your an potato. You have already back pedaled and changed your argument without even realizing it.

 

[andresimon]

I completely own up to this; I don't have positive reactions to Introverted Feeling when it's used as a weapon and/or obstructively.

At the same time, I'm a person who sees emotions as so fluctuating that they aren't usually a reliable indicator for making a decision. When people get so defensive about my calling attention to the fact that relying upon emotions first to make decisions can be destructive, I don't really get offended; it's not like I actually care whether or not I am offending the person, but I do try to take care how to phrase so as NOT to offend them because they're less likely to hear you out if you do. After all, "You attract a lot more flies with sugar than vinegar."

Apparently, I'm discovering that people get offended no matter how you dress it up; they'll read what they want to read because they're already on a crusade.

I don't like letting the soft, gooey side of me show merely on the account that it becomes easier for others to manipulate and/or take advantage of you than if you maintain your defenses. Yeah, sure, one can look like a spiky iron fortress that tramples over everything, but at least you're not vulnerable when you inevitably encounter another spiky fortress.

LOLLLLLL - Thank you for explaining your world view and your misery in the process. Keep your guard up buddy. What psychologists know that most people don't is that you usually create exactly that which you fear. Many "logical" reasons as to why that is.

It is amazing to me how many T's view F's as illogical and themselves as logical. When logic has NOTHING to do with it. F's focus on meaning and T's focus on usefulness.