[ENFP] ENFPs and Being Controlling

[Fidelia]

I'm glad that you did detail the Fi values being violated as well as the fact that you did indeed understand all along the way the message that was being sent. This sheds a lot of light on the whole thing.

 

[sculpting]

Oh! One other thing I thought of - with Ne constantly updating new models, sometimes I've heard others express this and I've occasionally thought it myself: it seems at times like the ENFP is wasting our time with a bunch of theories or ideas that they haven't taken the time to do the homework on. It would be like indiscriminately handing us all kinds of puzzle pieces, willy-nilly saying enthusiastically, "Hey! This one. This one will work for sure! I know it!" when it's obvious that it's not the right shape or the colours are wrong etc. I think to myself, "Did you even think about this before saying it. And NOW you want me to take the course of action you reccommend even though you clearly keep changing all the time yourself?

well, I suspect there may two aspects to this one-first we have to think out loud. I have this random theory about two brains and Ne being on one side and Te being on the other (*giggles naughtily at poorly thought out rambling idea* bad enfp, bad enfp!!). So, to some degree, we have amassed a lot of Ne connections tempered by Fi-but to put them together uses Te vocalization or typing-but for some reason I have to type to an audience. Ideas-especially almost pure Ne-Te ideas, really require external confirmation and feedback. I actually really loved Sim and the other young entps as they would Ne with me, then poke holes in my rambles as they didnt listen to Fe enough to not be rude . However if they could see the idea too..it often meant it had passed a bit of the Ti test, thus had merit.

Also-Fi is an analytical function-but it is very diffuse and incomprehensible to Ti. An ENTP recently said the Fi users get "sloppy". That isnt sloppy-that is Fi analysis. It is a more fuzzy logic for extremely complex problems and will break or skip Ti linkages. I dont think it is at all invalid-just very different from ti. But on the surface, when expressed, it can seem we just used Ne-Te as the Fi is silent and not precisely bounded.

Aptly, the people who love this insane chatter of profuse looney ideas-the INTJs. They dont like it when we lock the ideas down with Si, but many seem keen to listen to our Ne ramblings. I suspect there is some sort of symbiotic Ni-Ne love fest occurring.

I believe the same issue is at play when ENFPs change their plans often. They really, really do mean it at the time when they say something, but then everything changes again and they have to reacquaint themselves with the new reality. For an INFJ who doesn't enjoy emotional surprises especially, but also takes adjustment time when changing plans and so on, it can be hard to deal with.

oh, plan changing would put others at an inconvienence thus would hit one of my Fi cores, so would be a no-no for me.

I completely identify with her. I would way rather have my feelings made fun of than my thoughts. I would feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed if someone were to respond with laughter to my thoughts, even though I wouldn't as much if they got a kick out of how mad I was about something etc. Even as an adult with more perspective, I would find this really hard to deal with. I remember when I was about six talking at the table with my parents about what year it was in the Chinese calendar as our friends were Chinese. I said that it was "the year of the pony" and I remember being absolutely mortified when my parents looked amused and corrected me. They weren't even mean about it, but I still remember the complete embarrassment and sadness I felt. That's been a huge thing as I've gotten older in learning to separate myself more from people's reactions, realizing that they are not trying to make me feel badly. Music I like, people I like, pursuits I enjoy - they are all extensions of me and so rejection/mocking of them is felt as rejection/mocking of me.

I guess this is another example of the Fi-Ti dichotomy. It also explains why the NFPs would get wound up by Sim every time, even though he consistently would manipulate the situation in the same way and then call them whiny, butthurt etc. They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.

It is interesting as simply hearing someone say "quit wasting our time with your ideas" or "stop sharing half thought ideas" would offend my sense that everyone should be allowed to speak-freedom of speech in the truest sense I suppose. This is why I was so upset when captain chick posted her thread awhile back in feedback about wanting to reopen a thread and people said she was attention whoring-she was simply wanting to speak up for what she believed on an issue she found important. It doesnt matter if I feel/think the issue is important-what matters is that she is allowed to fight her fight and speak openly. There have been instances where posters I distinctly dislike had the same thing begin to happen, and I felt compelled to step up and defend them.

However I have heard what you say about ideas above from ENTPs as well. Once I understand that it hurts another person to question their idea very forcefully and publicly-well I feel that morphing into an Fi value of sorts. I dont understand exactly how to implement it, but it comes with a certain amount of guilt, as I likely have hurt others unknowingly and in a few cases out of my own frustration and hurt. At the time, I figured, oh, it is just an idea. But I hurt them as badly as they had hurt me. Later on that person would attack my ideas, but it didnt ever hurt as she didnt understand to go for my feelings, not my ideas. This saddens me, as hurting others is not my intent.

Wrt Sim, it was more that he would feed me contradicting motives for my own Fi. That my Fi value judgments were selfish or presumptous-that they hurt others. It was simply my felings-but my innate motivations. It would lead me to self question. I very much enjoyed the entp-Fi threads as I learned a lot about how others perceive me. There was some butthurt, but I have a lot of entp friends, so I kind of understand how to debate without getting emo, so I would try to listen and learn.

I think you're onto something with the Ti-Fi thing, Orobas. This is one of the reasons why we actually do believe it's HARMFUL to put false information out there. If it comes from a trusted source, it has power to damage, just as an indisciminate person given access to a Fi users innermost feelings could wreak havoc.

Oh, I realized the symmetric pattern is actually when an ENFP feels they have Te boundaries to keep them safe-it is like a wall to protect us, thus we can be open and share Fi. We trust we are safe and that the Te of the other person can be relied upon to protect the much more fragile emotions.

We also can grow to be a bit annoyed by Fi judgments being thrown out at random willy-nilly-they can be HARMFUL. Fi is meant to be externalized when the need is great, not over little things. I think this may be because by showing our Fi and emotions, we can force the other person to mirror and feel what we feel-only if the Te boundary is down. This gives us the ability to induce guilt and actual emotional pain in others. Perhaps like you guys with Ti and the influence upon ideas, it might allow us to actually influence the Fi values of the other person.

interestingly-Fi users protest in groups. You can ignore the solitary enfp as being emo-but if a group of enfps or a trusted enfp, say something is Fi flawed, it is given more credence. This might correlate to how Ti users dont actually claim the idea as theirs openly unless very trusted-but instead the entire group supports the idea. It gives the idea more credibility perhaps. But I dont know for sure.

With respect to the Te wall-note that if we never had that Te wall to give us a sense of security for Fi growing up-we build it ourselves internally. But it is shaky and has holes and is incomplete. I meet many, many ENFPs like myself who have built Te defensive barriers due to unstable childhoods. On the surface we actually appear rock solid and do pretty well in life, but underneath we can be in great pain or feel very empty at times.

When we are in enough emotional pain to externalize our own Fi-it can come across as almost incoherent babbling-as the Te structure has totally collapsed and a very raw Fi is exposed. That is why it can be hard to give Fe users any warning that we are in emotional hurt during an interaction-we just keep trying harder and harder to structure the emotional pain, to keep the hurt from reaching deeper inside of us.

The Te boundaries though-that is why IXTJs can be so good for ENFPs. They allow a safe place for us to relax enough to expose Fi. They also seen fairly resistant to Fi breakdowns.

This thread made me shed a tear...

 

[Fidelia]

Excellent and interesting points! I wouldn't have thought of some of that at all.

It never occurred to me that by verbalizing your thoughts you guys sort through them, much like I do with my feelings and finding a solution. I need to vent so that I can clear through the useless stuff and zero in on the stuff worth focussing in on. I seem to need to discuss things with someone to be able to sort through which parts are important and which parts aren't and it isn't even very dependent on their response - more the act of verbalizing it (although I can't seem to do it just by journalling - I need a real live person).

I'd like to hear more about how Fi analysis works. I still don't have much grasp of it because Fi only seems to come out in extreme circumstances and then it is not a time when you would normally visit about it - there is some kind of a crisis to deal with.

It's only been this last year that I've noticed what a strangely symbiotic relationship INTJs and ENFPs have. They seem like an unlikely pair, but are very complementary.

Re speaking out - the act of allowing people to have their say then is more important than the actual outcome of it? I think Fe-Ti users tend to be outcome oriented and so assume that the reason for expressing something publicly is to try to retroactively change the decision or to garner public support to put pressure onto those making the decisions. What then is the appropriate way to respond?

How was it that ENTPs explained their reactions to you and even told you what your motivations were that didn't rankle? I think that would be the number one way of getting under my skin - the person assuming that they knew my thoughts or feelings! Does it feel more removed to you? Is this ENFP individual specific, or would it be true for the whole lot of you?

So you feel that Te is protective on both sides? How does that work? Can you explain it more? I think I can see how the individual could use it to protect themselves, but how would they trust the other person to protect them with Te? Is it the openness to explore ideas?

I'm not sure if Fi displays would induce guilt or emotional pain in me, simply because I think I am motivated and guilted by different things. I'm not sure about that, but it did come as a revelation to me that sharing problems with Fi users seems to make them feel my pain firsthand, instead of just secondhand, should they decide to become emotionally involved. Even if I really care about someone, I still am one step removed from their pain, unless it is someone who is almost an extension of myself like a SO or an extremely close family member. I think I probably become personally involved in the emotional issues of a wider breadth of people, but with less raw depth than Fi users seem to. What's it look like from your side of the fence?

Would you say that Te is stronger in ENFPs who have had more hurt in their past, because they have needed it to protect themselves? I wonder if that is so what the INFJ equivalent of that would be...

Interesting that Fi is only expressed in particular and occasional circumstances. That would make sense then why it is often misunderstood and still seems kind of murky to me. I would like to ask questions about it, but it seems very individual and doesn't come out enough to observe it and discuss it. Any ideas for how to go about better understanding it?

 

[Fidelia]

It again occurred to me that I'm doing that question thing again - I like to zero in on the things that I don't understand because I find them interesting, but I've been made aware that this sometimes feels a little - demanding. I think it might be the Fe equivalent of what Te does in its enthusiasm for discussing new ideas - zeroes in on the differences so that it can build understanding from there. In any case, I'm not sure how to go at it better, but it is my way of validating and showing interest in the things you are saying.

 

[Seymour]

I apologize for backing up to comment on stuff earlier in the thread... I only wandered through here today. These are mostly nitpicks, so feel free to disagree or disregard, as you see fit.

Because Ti is big on accuracy and only speaks about things it is totally sure about, it is irksome to hear someone state something in absolute terms and then flip flop and still think they're right. What I didn't realize is that whether it's ENFP style Te or Te dom Te, they are actually much more open to restructuring information or an idea than I am. Kind of like putting puzzle pieces right into the spot before deciding whether they should remain because they fit, or something else is better. Ti users would instead examine the colours, the bumps and indents on the puzzle piece, compared with the prospective home for it and reject it much sooner if it didn't work because they are less likely to change it once it is actually in place.

I think part of this dynamic is just the individual being extraverted vs introverted. I mostly process things internally (or sometimes through writing), so my "growing edge" isn't necessarily that visible to others. I think extraverts in general are likely to process out loud. I had usually thought sounding certain but being changeable was more of a J-trait in general, whereas when a P sounds certain, it often goes all the way to bone. Maybe I'm generalizing from IPs to all Ps, though.

This was (and to some extent continues to be) news to me that Te users don't really believe half of what they say as dogmatically as they express it, so it doesn't seem like they are either inaccurate or bossy. They give their listener the credit of evaluating and contributing to the stated idea or theory. To a Ti user, we tend to make sure we trust the source of the idea first, but then are more likely to accept what they say without as rigorous of verbal sparring. Therefore, if I listen to a documentary on dinosaurs from a reputable source, I will assume that I can relax and assimilate the information being given because it is reliable. Otherwise, I would not waste my time on it. I think this is part of what makes me seem kind of inflexible to some people - if I can tell what something is not, I don't want to see what it would look like in my internal system.

Here I think I disagree with you a bit. I see both Fi and Ti being more egalitarian about source than Fe and Te. For both Te and Fe, the societal structures have value and so do roles and authority. This doesn't mean the Te-ers and Fe-ers believe in every societal structure, but they are much more likely to respect the utility of those structures. This means that someone position is more likely to have an effect on how their "truth" is weighted.

Fi and Ti are based more on personal understanding and evaluation. It's not enough that "everyone knows" something to be true... you have to work it out for yourself. As a result, since everything has to be worked out personally, the "truth" of a matter is fairly detached from its source. You have to verify it internally, and the external status of someone doesn't matter to the same degree.

Now both Fi and Ti can be absolutely disdainful of bad process. The person who acts from bad intentions or hypocrisy earns the disdain of Fi. The person who is logically sloppy and imprecise earns the disdain of Ti. So, I think Fi and Ti both will discount a source if its process is shown to be bad. Fe and Te will discount a source for not adopting or following the agreed upon proceeded, and it often has to earn its way to being heard if it doesn't come from a respected source.

I agree with you that once an Fi-dom or Ti-dom have verified that some individual's process is consistently high quality, they may accept parts without being so picky about reverifying every step.

This is also why you find Ti users often quantifying everything, which some Te users find wordy and annoying. They assume that they will evaluate the ideas that are stated. We assume that if they trust us, they may not as rigorously and we want to distribute accurate information.

Again, I nitpick! I think Te is much more about measurement and quantification. I think Ti is more about qualitative precision. The statements and terms used must be absolutely accurate, because precision is everything. Fi can be equally picky about the connotations of word choice, because precision of feeling and value is everything.

This can drive others crazy when a Ji-dom picks apart statements, and forces agreement on precise definitions before discussion can continue.

Like I just tried to do.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Interesting thread. Won't insert myself much here, just a couple of little things popped into my mind as I read:

What I didn't realize is that whether it's ENFP style Te or Te dom Te, they are actually much more open to restructuring information or an idea than I am. ... This was (and to some extent continues to be) news to me that Te users don't really believe half of what they say as dogmatically as they express it, so it doesn't seem like they are either inaccurate or bossy.

You make me think of traveling stories with my husband fidelia ... driving to places we've never been before (pre-GPS), he would narrate our next move, for example, "We need to make a right on Pine St." Sometimes I would feel pretty sure that this next move was wrong, but he would sound certain, so I wouldn't interject and disagree. He would make the turn, and then we'd be going the wrong way, and I would say, "Hmmm, I thought that turn was wrong..." and in reply he would express frustration that I didn't speak up. "If you knew it was wrong, why did you let me turn?" He was happy to be contradicted - even though Te can sound so sure, a mature Te user is generally very open to correction. In fact, at times, I think it's practically expected.

I guess this is another example of the Fi-Ti dichotomy. It also explains why the NFPs would get wound up by Sim every time, even though he consistently would manipulate the situation in the same way and then call them whiny, butthurt etc. They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.

True, but he would continually re-engage ... the Ne wouldn't need time to retreat and reformulate ... in that way, he could be challenged, and he would update his Ti models accordingly when convinced they merited amendment. He wasn't intractable in that way. One could pass "muster".

I picked up almost immediately that my input was not wanted nor was my opinion considered valid. Why? Not because what I said wasn’t valid. Not because my feedback was incorrect. But because I was Esoteric Wench. That is to say that some people had decided from my previous posts that I was hostile to INFJs. Thus, they had reasoned that my input was not wanted in an INFJ thread. Furthermore, it felt like I had to be on the approved list to be able to provide input in that thread.

Likely I repped you "Danger, Danger!"

Myself, I have built up some credibility / collateral during my time at the forum, but maybe not enough to make my latest thread. We'll see.

Let the Best Argument Win. I assumed that you were operating under the same assumption that I was which was that whoever made the best logical argument would carry the day. Under my assumption, who made the argument didn’t matter. Their agenda didn’t matter. All that mattered was validity of their argument.

Whole post very well expressed from your POV EW.

A story about "May The Best Argument Win" ... waaaaaay back in high school, I had a good friend, who upon reflection, am pretty sure was INFJ. We used to have debates and would discuss points of commonality but we often had opposing viewpoints on different subjects. I enjoyed our banter, found it interesting, energizing. One day - it was in Gr 13 Calculus class actually - I differed in opinion on the answer to a question. She said to me with much venom, "You always disagree with what answer I think is the right one. You always argue with me. If you argue with me on this (question) I won't ever talk to you again." Now, understand I was floored for a moment and told her I didn't understand, why was debating the answer bad. She told me I was only looking to argue and she hated it. So, not really understanding the implications of pressing the issue, I did, and she door-slammed me ... haven't talked to her since that day. I've tried to locate her over the years ... never have been able to. To me, debates. To her, arguments. Sad I never picked up on how much she felt pushed ... how offended she felt when her ideas were challenged.

I actually really loved Sim and the other young entps as they would Ne with me, then poke holes in my rambles as they didnt listen to Fe enough to not be rude . However if they could see the idea too..it often meant it had passed a bit of the Ti test, thus had merit.

as above ...

I work in programming, so I see it as the NT / Ti litmus test ... once you've passed and demonstrated competence, you are in.

interestingly-Fi users protest in groups. You can ignore the solitary enfp as being emo-but if a group of enfps or a trusted enfp, say something is Fi flawed, it is given more credence. This might correlate to how Ti users dont actually claim the idea as theirs openly unless very trusted-but instead the entire group supports the idea. It gives the idea more credibility perhaps. But I dont know for sure.

Yes, kind of like my thread atm. Fi in isolation is more easily dismissed or gets less credibility than Fi in numbers, IMO. To me though too, one little voice of Fi is like the canary in the coal mine at times ... for one Fi user speaking up, there are probably a whack more who are thinking something but saying nothing. That's been borne out in my real world experiences time and time again.

 

[Fidelia]

Great food for thought...

Re canary in the coal mine - It's interesting that Fi usually feels that Fe tries to pressure Fi users to conform by enlisting the help of the group to make their point. It's rare that Fe will bring something up that they haven't already confirmed will be backed up by the others in the group. However, it's usually because they use other people's mirrors to check that this is indeed a relevant issue to more people than only them and that they are not just over reacting. Regardless, it has the effect of making sure there is social support for the objection being made.

It appears to me that because Fi users loathe cohearsion and because Fi is very individually driven, they tend not to check with the people around them for support and consensus before bringing something up. As a result, they are not organized into a group and are more easily dismissed by others. A Fi user may defend another Fi user's right to speak, even if they disagree with the point being made. Fe tends to only feel the point being made is important if other people find it important too (even if it may be a small group compared to the vast majority).

 

[PeaceBaby]

Well, Fi must go public at some point in order to "check-in" with more people - I might bounce my thoughts and feelings off of a (very) few trusted people, but that's just the first litmus test. Once I have amassed enough data to come to a preliminary conclusion of my own, I will reach out to others in order to get more input and feedback, to either confirm or invalidate my hypothesis.

Otherwise, the Fi POV remains hidden. As much as it might make an Fe user cringe to hear this, it takes some courage to stand up and proclaim Fi, it's scary to put oneself on the line. Only when I speak up can I determine whether my intuition and feelings are accurate to the group or possessed primarily by myself.

But there's often a great deal of thought behind taking action; it isn't just an impulse of the moment.

First, one has to feel confident having done the necessary factual due diligence to feel close to the pulse of what's happening in the group, to frequently and accurately see, hear and feel the vibe that stuff is wrong from multiple people at multiple times, in different scenarios.

Second, one needs to have enough credibility in the group in order to weather the inevitable rebuffs that will come from an Fi proclamation - there are initial knee-jerk reactions to any kind of criticism levied against the group. This can come in the form of censure, ridicule or being ostracized. For example, folks that used to talk to you, aren't as communicative. These can be Fi or Fe users btw - Fe users use these tools to realign individuals back to the group, and Fi users distance themselves from people they see receiving the group's "special" attention in order to protect themselves.

Third, one needs to build a case for one's cause in order to convince the group in the legitimacy of the claim. Amass enough feedback and data that the group simply cannot ignore it. Then, change can hopefully occur.

When I have led groups such as saving rural schools (or other causes I have felt close to my heart), I start with Fi but need to use both Fe and Fi strategies working with the people; I need data that appeals to both Te and Ti, and I need to use the Ne to brainstorm strategies and have enough Ni to see the future outcomes of any given path we will proceed upon. Then, that hits the pavement with the real world stuff: Se to get out there and be visible, Si to use heritage and precedent to my advantage. It's a whole package, but it all starts with Fi - the call to action. Fi offers the strength of conviction to press on through the tough spots.

The world seldom accommodates an individual POV in favor of a group, even if it's the right one. That's why in order to be successful, individuals must pull together, must be heard together.

 

[skylights]

Also, you're right re. this. There ARE many different external options -- so in a sense, the external is pretty arbitrary. We just happen to have put thought into why we have chosen one of these ways over another. (usually there's a lot of reason behind it, but you're right, sometimes there's not much at all and it's just habit and there's a much better way)

Flip this around. You can say the same thing about internal things/values - there are 'many different internal options'. So they too are arbitrary, in much the same sense you might view external behaviors being arbitrary. But again, doesn't mean a lot of thought isn't put into the why behind why you've chosen one internal 'way' of viewing things. It's just that the J's are going to concentrate efforts on honing external things and making that precise/solid, and P's are going to focus efforts on internal solidity.

(urg... I'm kinda making this up as I go so I'm sure it isn't entirely accurate)

Basically it's just two sides of the same coin (well, sort of ) -- and thank heavens everyone isn't solely internally perceiving without any external judgment, or solely internal judging without any external perceiving. And... it's why J's and P's can learn & gain from one another.

wow i'm sorry i didn't reply to this forever ago! so many threads to keep track of

anyway - yeah, i agree with you, two sides of the same coin. and i think we both run into problems when we misunderstand one another...

an interesting example just occurred to me, in which a Fe dom friend of mine asked something in a rather cold way to a mutual friend of ours - obviously throwing him (ISFP, i think) onto the defense. then later when myself and my friend were together without our mutual friend, i pointed out that she was rather harsh to him, but agreed with her implication, and she replied that she was just throwing it out there to see our mutual friend's reaction. we each had the other all wrong - i saw her as being cold outside and wishy-washy inside, and she saw me as being cold inside and wishy-washy outside. the truth is, we both like our mutual friend but feel concerned about the direction in which he's taking a group that we were once in charge of. we manifested that same feeling in very different ways.

Well, Fi must go public at some point in order to "check-in" with more people - I might bounce my thoughts and feelings off of a (very) few trusted people, but that's just the first litmus test. Once I have amassed enough data to come to a preliminary conclusion of my own, I will reach out to others in order to get more input and feedback, to either confirm or invalidate my hypothesis.

yes, i feel this too. Fi is doubly subjective... intrapersonal and illogical... sometimes you just have to check your reality compass and make sure its bearings are still right, lol. i've also often found that when i speak up, many others will agree, both Fi and not-Fi.

Oh! One other thing I thought of - with Ne constantly updating new models, sometimes I've heard others express this and I've occasionally thought it myself: it seems at times like the ENFP is wasting our time with a bunch of theories or ideas that they haven't taken the time to do the homework on. It would be like indiscriminately handing us all kinds of puzzle pieces, willy-nilly saying enthusiastically, "Hey! This one. This one will work for sure! I know it!" when it's obvious that it's not the right shape or the colours are wrong etc. I think to myself, "Did you even think about this before saying it. And NOW you want me to take the course of action you reccommend even though you clearly keep changing all the time yourself?

I believe the same issue is at play when ENFPs change their plans often. They really, really do mean it at the time when they say something, but then everything changes again and they have to reacquaint themselves with the new reality. For an INFJ who doesn't enjoy emotional surprises especially, but also takes adjustment time when changing plans and so on, it can be hard to deal with.

I assume this is a Te-Ti issue in combination with the jumping aroundness of Ne. On the other side of the spectrum, you guys consider many things I never would and I sometimes tend to over-eliminate. It allows you to be more open and innovative as well as accept change and new ideas in a group without needing the same kind of mental adjustment time.

yeah, i guess it can seem like indescriminate information overload. to me, i want you to make your own decision about the value of the information - i don't want to filter something out that i've missed value in, when you might find it. it's not "this one will work for sure!", it's that every piece - every bit of information in the universe - is valuable in some way. because each piece of information can be personalized, i can't often know if the shape or color is wrong for you. it may have value to you that it doesn't to me, and i don't want to throw away something that might be pivotal for you. if i know you VERY well, i can start to eliminate information, but it's still a place of relative discomfort for me. on the other hand, i can fit pieces into my own puzzle, and come up with a solution independent of yours.

as for changing plans often, there are just so many options that will work. P and Te don't search for that same refinement that J and Ti do, so it's cool to change plans. actually that's why i end up feeling like my life revolves around Js when i'm with them sometimes. we have to have The Plan and stick to it. it's really weird in my mind. i see the advantage, to a certain extent, but in some other ways it feels really limiting.

I think you're onto something with the Ti-Fi thing, Orobas. This is one of the reasons why we actually do believe it's HARMFUL to put false information out there. If it comes from a trusted source, it has power to damage, just as an indisciminate person given access to a Fi users innermost feelings could wreak havoc.

that's really interesting. to me, information is so take-it-or-leave-it. i always fact-check and almost never accept sources of authority as a given. i don't really care who said it, if it doesn't make sense to me, it's getting the living hell probed out of it. i guess maybe to Fe/Ti emotions are the same way?

I would way rather have my feelings made fun of than my thoughts. I would feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed if someone were to respond with laughter to my thoughts, even though I wouldn't as much if they got a kick out of how mad I was about something etc. Even as an adult with more perspective, I would find this really hard to deal with.

wow, yeah, i'm EXACTLY the opposite. i don't really care if you think my thoughts aren't right. they're not me - they're just ideas. sure i have some pet ideas, but we're always getting in new information and maybe there's something i missed. but your wording is perfect - i feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed when someone responds to my feelings with mockery. it seems like they ultimate in cruelty. and that's exactly where i think a lot of threads have gone south - the Fi guide, to be sure. that's exactly how i felt in that one. many people seemed like they had no interest in critiquing ideas, they just kept writing off Fi feelings. though given what you said, critiquing ideas would be an attack? but then... how do we make progress with ideas?

I remember when I was about six talking at the table with my parents about what year it was in the Chinese calendar as our friends were Chinese. I said that it was "the year of the pony" and I remember being absolutely mortified when my parents looked amused and corrected me. They weren't even mean about it, but I still remember the complete embarrassment and sadness I felt.

Music I like, people I like, pursuits I enjoy - they are all extensions of me and so rejection/mocking of them is felt as rejection/mocking of me.

this has come up in some other thread... accidentally hurting an NFJ's feelings via extension... so, question being, how do you critique a subject when you enjoy it? i don't mean to say that everything should be critiqued, but like, the topic's not just closed to discussion, is it?

They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.

a row of little nodding heads for you!

it's really an excellent point. it probably explains a whole lot of conflict on these forums.

Looking back on things, I can't believe how much I didn't understand what the Fe/Ti user was doing. I'm pretty good at reading people, but this dynamic completely went under my radar. <Insert self-directed ugh here.>

ME TOO

This puzzled me because it seemed to me so obvious that I was distressed. But this was a projection on my part. I ASSUMED they knew what I knew which was that I was clicking into Te mode BECAUSE I was stressed out. So I think you bring up a very good point, Fidelia, that when defensive Te comes out, it can seem offensive (in the sense of it being on the attack) because the auxiliary Te user (i.e., ENFPs) seems so confident and assured in what he/she is saying.

yes, this happens to me often as well. Fe/Ti users often don't understand that my attack is my defense. it's because i don't believe that anything's ever accomplished by walling anyone off - possibly a P vs J thing - i don't want to burn bridges, even temporarily (after all, even though i'm mad at you, it doesn't mean you don't have good ideas, and it doesn't mean you don't hold value to me) - so to use enneagram language, i go towards people when i'm stressed out, whereas Fe/Ti users seem to move away.

Let the Best Argument Win.

yeah, i have to echo this, because this bothers me a lot sometimes about Fe/Ti, especially Fe dom/aux. they'll take on an "authority"/mentor/teacher and not really question their ideas, or, worse, they'll throw someone's ideas out because they're momentarily (or permanently) displeased with that person. it doesn't make any sense to me... imo, you should never stop questioning someone's ideas just because you like them, and, even more importantly, just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they won't come up with a brilliant idea.

after all, the information you're exposed to, and how it gets recombined in your mind... it's random, to a certain extent. i'm not fully responsible for all the good ideas i come up with. i feel like it's just stumbling upon a truth that was already there. i guess that was part of my problem in the Fi Guide thread. i didn't feel like the words i was using were particularly anyone's - either they were useful or they weren't; either they were more accurate to the majority or they weren't. it seems ridiculous to "claim" phrases, to a certain extent.

plagiarism in general, high sin of academia - i mean i respect it so i don't get in trouble, and i don't have a problem with giving other people credit, but - honestly, it's kind of silly, in my opinion. you can't lay claim to a truth. it belongs only to itself. sure, you can be the one to uncover that, and an "expert" would be someone very familiar with a certain bank of truths and who often uncovers truths themself, but that doesn't stop anyone else from discovering them, either. it's like - you don't need to be an ENFP to uncover truths about ENFPs, but you do need to be an ENFP to fully understand how it feels to be an ENFP. hence critiquing an idea is okay - anyone can discover a truth - but critiquing a feeling is much more dangerous ground, because you are not privy to the full range of circumstances which invoked that feeling.

When you see Fe/Ti users not engaging as much, often it is a sign that there is some snag that you've hit. If you continue speaking to them and they seem a little bit edgy, this is a good place to go back and mentally try to figure out where the snag occurred. If given some space, they may re-evaluate and extract the useful parts from your conversation and give you the benefit of the doubt.

while i get this, doesn't it seem kind of unfair? i don't really have any opinion on EW's participation in the INFJ conversation - especially because i did not read the thread and have no idea what happened - but it sounds so much like the Fe person totally controls the conversation - they decide if and when someone gets their ideas considered.

What about for you? It appears to me that Te especially comes out as a defensive reaction for you, but because it appears strong, it may not be interpreted as you just acting in self-defense or trying to solve a difficult situation. How can we avoid these kind of clashes happening? For me, I need space at the first hint of danger and staying on the doorstep until you have been invited in. What is it for you? What sparks those kinds of reactions for you?

i know this wasn't directed at me but i'm gonna answer anyway

in response to what i bolded - not considering ideas on their own merit, basically. it throws me into YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR THIS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT mode, because at that point, i see the idea as more important than myself.

ooh, fidelia, do you remember the conversation we were having a while ago in the Fe/Fi thread, where there was PB's post about a situation in which she'd openly exposed a situation regarding a ladder at her workplace? this reminds me of that area in the conversation - it's like, i think Ne-Fi users are sometimes ready to sacrifice themself for their ideas because we see certain ideals as more important and more lasting than ourselves. like EW (and correct me if this is wrong) was willing to sacrifice a pleasant rapport with you because she felt like the idea she wanted to share was just that important - probably because she felt like it could improve the lives of many INFJs. i think this is that same sacrifice of good relations for the achievement of an ideal.

basically, what i need is for the other person to let me express my idea without any prejudgment based on personal factors. i'm afraid that our needs under stress clash somewhat, though. you don't want to let my idea in until you trust me, and i don't want you judging my ideas based off trust.

so one of us has to give... either i have to be willing to work to build rapport (though by the time that's happened, it might be too late for the idea to help as much as it once could have) - or you have to be willing to suspend trust to hear my idea (though it might turn out to be a "dangerous" idea after all) . but really i think both of those parenthetical concerns are falsities. if the idea is a good one, it shouldn't matter how long it takes to be revealed. and "dangerous" ideas can be quickly disarmed simply by demonstrating their flaws.

 

[sculpting]

I have many comments I want to address....however in dealing with a customer today I really got to see how Fe vs Te interact in influencing the decisions of others.

We are trying to sell a very expensive piece of scientific instrumentation.

I feel that if I show them data on the instrument-it should stand independent of me and the customer will make the choice to purchase off the data shown to them, not what I tell them.

However the ENTP and the ENFJ I am working with are all about "positioning". Basically, once the sales team has a good relationship with the customer, by identifying the customers doubts, then positioning against each doubt, they can convince the customer that they should purchase the system-even without seeing any data.

I cant emphasize how weird this is for me. I would never trust someone at their word-but only at the solid evidence they provide-the data. But by simply saying words over and over again in the right way....the ENTP and ENFJ both feel as though they can sway the person's opinion about data.

This is a really strange break point in my job as it explains why the sales team can be so frustrating-they seek selling points and verbiage to go along with the selling points-and i just look at them and go "Doesnt the data speak for itself?"

 

[Fidelia]

By the way, I don't want Seymour's comments to get left in the dust. I agree for the most part and would still like to get around to commenting more extensively.

Thanks skylights and Orobas for your perspectives. The two paradigms we look through the world from are so different and yet when translated to the opposite functions have a lot of similarities. I'm beginning to see some basic principles emerging in dealing with both types which I think are helpful for seeing where we approach differently and what will work better. I'd like to yet put those findings into a thread for some discussion and refining.

Seymour makes a very good point about the source of the ideas being somewhat removed in importance with Te because they are going to be examined closely anyway - all ideas are given consideration. I see that same dynamic happening with Fe in some sense. That is why less weight is given to the individual members of the group and their intentions, and more weight is placed on what result is. Both EJCC and one of the ENFPs (who was it who gave the example about telling a secret that a Fe user had been told in confidence?) have mentioned this business of trying to explain their intentions to a Fe user, to little avail. I think this is why.

I laughed at that example of yours, O, because it rang so true. I may see that a product is a great one, but if someone tries to sell it to me in an offensive, overly pushy or annoying way, I will purposely not buy it, even if I can see from the data that it is good. I just can't ignore the people element that goes along with it and on some level that carries more weight with me. Of course I do care about quality as well, but if there are two places offering products with equal quality, I will always purchase from the one that connects with me best in a personal way. I wonder what implications this has for Fi using inventors, writers, business people etc getting people to "buy their product"? Do they understand that data or a good product is not enough to speak for itself with some people? Do they develop their own Fi brand of salesmanship, or do a lot of good ideas and products go by the wayside?

skylights - I can understand your frustration with Js at times - I have had a few very dominant friends in the past that you either had to mold your plans to or else forget about it. It didn't seem fair. I also don't like people who are too rigid with plans. Mostly I'll be really easygoing, but if it was something I was really counting on, it takes me a few minutes to get over my disappointment at things changing, even if it is changing to another good thing. In this sense it can seem that the Ps remain in control and spring things on me sometimes. I think all the way around, it's a matter of being flexible and communicating needs directly instead of just feeling irked either way.

Thanks both skylights and Seymour for explaining the puzzle piece thing. That makes absolute sense when explained from that perspective.

Re critiquing ideas - I think there certainly is a place for that skylights and it is important to do. The key lies in the approach more than anything. Being aware that this is a very personal thing, you might use the example of how you would critique a piece of art you happened to see at a flea market or bazaar (not knowing the painter), or when a friend shows you their own art. You are still allowed to critique both, but you would likely do it differently because of your relationship to the person. (Maybe that's just a Fe perspective though, I don't know). Same thing with what a person likes. If you went to someone's house and they had spent a lot of money on certain decor, you wouldn't look around (usually) and say, "I've always hated that style of furniture. It's impractical and what's more, it looks ridiculous". You would wait until you were invited to give your opinion, or you could tactfully make a suggestion of what would make the place look even better (addition of a certain piece of furniture, pattern, colour, taking something away etc). You could start impersonally, and then gradually get more personal, testing the water for what the reaction is. You could look at what you agree on and then comment on what you might have done differently, allowing them time to mull it over. (Actually, come to think of it, this just sounds like Fe/Ti). Ideas would be the same, so would our personal tastes and likes in people, music etc. It's not that the topic is off limits, but you have to be careful in how you would approach, much as we ought to be careful about wading in with comments on your values etc without taking time to gather information, find out how important something is to you and how close it is to your heart.

hence critiquing an idea is okay - anyone can discover a truth - but critiquing a feeling is much more dangerous ground, because you are not privy to the full range of circumstances which invoked that feeling.

Replace feeling with the word thought, and you'll better understand why critiquing our thoughts is not invited unless we deem you someone who has earned the right to be heard. If someone wanted to critique a feeling of yours, what is the appropriate approach? Would it be similar to what I've described with thought? What would a conversation like that look like? Obviously for either of us, doing it privately is much more preferred than doing it publicly. Beyond that though, I'm not sure...

Also, I've noticed that Ti asks all sorts of questions about the things it's not sure of and appreciates having the same done back. It's a way of showing interest and validation. Would Fi do the same thing for values or feelings, or would they consider that too intrusive. Would you want to be plied with questions about your feelings in the way that we do with our thoughts? I was thinking about how Te seems demanding to me and puts me on the spot because it wants an oversimplified and quickly given, impersonal version of our thoughts. Does Fe feel like that to you? If so, how can we approach in a less intimidating, demanding manner?

skylights - Your point about going towards people when you are stressed, whereas Fe/Ti moves away is bang on. Do you think this has anything to do with extroversion/introversion, or is it solely a Fe/Ti and Fi/Te thing? I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm not sure. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I think that's a big source of conflicts on the forums. Right when I want to distance myself slightly so that I can come back and be gracious, the Fi/Te person follows me there and I get short with them. They feel rejected because I don't want to engage and it feels to them like maybe I am also being inauthentic. Yet if I give them the full load of how I am feeling at that moment, it won't be pleasant for them and may do damage. I want time to recalibrate my emotions and return when I am able to be more even keeled. In any of the situations where I have seen problems, I think this is at play. I'd be interested in hearing from the INFPs though and seeing their take on it.

while i get this, doesn't it seem kind of unfair? i don't really have any opinion on EW's participation in the INFJ conversation - especially because i did not read the thread and have no idea what happened - but it sounds so much like the Fe person totally controls the conversation - they decide if and when someone gets their ideas considered.

Like with Te "protecting" Fi, I believe that the strong-looking offensive Fe stance is actually a sign of a Ti user trying to be defensive of their area of vulnerability (Ti). It may look like they are being bossy, but really they are trying to reduce the critics to those they have deemed people who either have the qualifications, understanding or consideration to present things to them in such a way they can hear them. You don't appreciate Fe users coming in and making light of your Fi, even though they really do see feelings as something more impersonal that you examine, move around, change, add to, take away from, probe etc (much in the way you see their Ti ideas) and so you respond with Te to defend that and keep your Fi safe. By keeping people who will not understand away from those areas, you allow yourself to still want to be around them. Otherwise, it will deeply wound the relationship if they do not have the information or understanding they need to respect their surroundings and act accordingly.

This is always going to be an issue, but I think if both parties understand why they tend to respond in the ways they do (Te brings out uber Fe and Fe brings out uber Te), it will help us speak in ways that will lessen the extremeness of the reaction and be more equitable from both viewpoints.

 

[Fidelia]

Sorry for the walls of text, folks. Catch you on the next round, PB, too!

 

[EJCC]

Fidelia directed me here... and OMG there is so much to read!!! It's so interesting to see how much I relate to on this thread, even though no one here is an SJ. I will post here tomorrow (I just saved all the quotes I want to reply to in a massive Word document... lol), but in the meantime, I have a paper due tomorrow that I haven't written

But I'll be back soon with (presumably) a very long post!

 

[EJCC]

Here 'tis! It's kind of stream of consciousness, but there you go.

Re Orobas: It’s interesting how different types of Te can be. Some of the stressed-out ENFP Te you described early in the thread can really intimidate me when I see it in the real world (dunno if it’s ENFPs doing this, but I’ve seen that behavior you described). I mean, when people make big, factually wrong statements, I feel like it’s my duty to correct them, but after I do, sometimes that behavior shows up, where suddenly I can tell that what they’re arguing is based on emotions and not fact. For example, the way that many of the ENFPs on this site express Te seems very reactive to me. (It relates really well to what you said about how “we wield tert functions like clubs”.) Speaking as a Te dom, I can totally tell that it’s some sort of defense, instead of a standard communication style, and that puts me off to no end. It’s like pretending that you’re objective and ready for rational debate, when you really aren’t. That usually puts me off to the point that I don’t even try to respond, and I just leave the online premises.

I don’t mean this to offend ENFPs. I read the entire thread up until this point, and I totally understand the reasoning behind using Te when you do. I also understand that my reaction to it is unreasonable and comes from my ignorance. I’m just saying… that’s my knee-jerk reaction when that happens. But if what you said is true – i.e. that you really do want to be corrected – then I should just stick around and continue debating from now on? But there were some quotes earlier about how Te is a last-minute defense mechanism… So how can I tell the difference between an ENFP’s defensive Te and regular Te? It seems like with one of them, you want to be corrected, and with the other, you want people to shut up and go away. That confuses me to no end.

Also, Orobas, I totally related to your description of how ENFPs can be totally right about something, and then after being corrected they’re totally right again. And your description of the ENFP method of comforting people… well, that’s exactly what I do. (At the most, anyway. Usually I do less, or try to distract them or cheer them up in a way unrelated to the problem they’re having.)

Re digestthisickness: I can’t even begin to articulate how much I relate to your comments about how those generalizations can bug you. I think being raised by a Ti-dom has trained me to always be on the lookout for those things. In fact, I think I’ve actually gotten really good at Ti-backpedaling, e.g. “Keeping in mind that none of this is really certain…” So I always score really high on Ti in function tests, even though I think most of it is just Ti training to get Ti types off my back, instead of actual Ti.

Re Seymour: I kind of disagree with you about Ti. I don't think it's egalitarian about source at all. From my experience with Ti-doms, even though there are some topics - specifically related to logic/math problems or philosophy - where source doesn't matter at all, if it relates to data/facts/etc, you HAVE to have a credible source. For example, my dad will not buy ANYTHING (practically) until he checks Consumer Reports to find the best-rated option.

Re fidelia: I'm confused about your point about having your feelings vs your thoughts attacked. If having your thoughts attacked offends you because your thoughts are an extension of you personally, does that mean your feelings aren't an extension of you? So if someone told you that your feelings were wrong, that wouldn't be as bad as hearing that your thoughts were wrong?

I ask because that concept is so foreign to me. It’s so counter to what I would subjectively consider “common sense”. The way I see it is – there are your thoughts, and there are your feelings. Ideas are objective, and therefore separate from any emotional connection. If/when criticizing one of my ideas makes me emotional, it’s because I’m ashamed of being so incredibly wrong; I hate looking stupid in front of other people. But when you mock my feelings, you're mocking something innocent that can't defend itself - and by that, I mean that feelings can't hold up in debate (because only facts can).

Also:

Also, I've noticed that Ti asks all sorts of questions about the things it's not sure of and appreciates having the same done back. It's a way of showing interest and validation. Would Fi do the same thing for values or feelings, or would they consider that too intrusive.

This is very interesting. I actually do this all the time. I have a tendency to ask my very closest friends, when I’m in a really bad mood, whether they think my mood is justified. It comforts me to know that I have a good excuse for being upset. Not sure how relevant that is though.

Re PeaceBaby: I really relate to, and agree with, these two quotes of yours:

You make me think of traveling stories with my husband fidelia ... driving to places we've never been before (pre-GPS), he would narrate our next move, for example, "We need to make a right on Pine St." Sometimes I would feel pretty sure that this next move was wrong, but he would sound certain, so I wouldn't interject and disagree. He would make the turn, and then we'd be going the wrong way, and I would say, "Hmmm, I thought that turn was wrong..." and in reply he would express frustration that I didn't speak up. "If you knew it was wrong, why did you let me turn?" He was happy to be contradicted - even though Te can sound so sure, a mature Te user is generally very open to correction. In fact, at times, I think it's practically expected.

Otherwise, the Fi POV remains hidden. As much as it might make an Fe user cringe to hear this, it takes some courage to stand up and proclaim Fi, it's scary to put oneself on the line. Only when I speak up can I determine whether my intuition and feelings are accurate to the group or possessed primarily by myself.

Re Skylights (specifically her point about Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te stress, going towards people or going away from them): I’d be interested in hearing another answer to this too, because I had a relevant interaction with an NF(?) friend today, where we were going to bake cookies in the evening and then a huge thing happened that put both of us in stressed and cranky moods.
Her reaction: “I am stressed and drained and this has put me out of a cookie-baking mood, so I guess I’ll relax and sit alone and watch TV and go to bed because I’m tired.”
My unverbalized reaction: “We can’t cancel! I’ve been looking forward to this all day and I am NOT going to give up on it. I’m not in a good mood either, but it’ll put me in a better mood if we do something fun instead of giving up and resigning ourselves to the sad fate of going to bed early on a Friday night.”
So in other words, she distanced herself from everyone in the hopes that she’d calm down/feel better, and I belligerently tried to keep the social interactions going In the hopes that they would make me feel better, which is actually a trend with me (i.e. that I usually get VERY Te when I’m in a cranky mood).

 

[sculpting]

Re Orobas: It’s interesting how different types of Te can be. Some of the stressed-out ENFP Te you described early in the thread can really intimidate me when I see it in the real world (dunno if it’s ENFPs doing this, but I’ve seen that behavior you described). I mean, when people make big, factually wrong statements, I feel like it’s my duty to correct them, but after I do, sometimes that behavior shows up, where suddenly I can tell that what they’re arguing is based on emotions and not fact.

But if what you said is true – i.e. that you really do want to be corrected – then I should just stick around and continue debating from now on? But there were some quotes earlier about how Te is a last-minute defense mechanism… So how can I tell the difference between an ENFP’s defensive Te and regular Te? It seems like with one of them, you want to be corrected, and with the other, you want people to shut up and go away. That confuses me to no end.

Perhaps the best way to approach the online debate-is to treat the enfp as an individual and base your decision on their historical ability to remain reasonable. Every ENFP will occasionally emo-pop, be irritable and show defensive Fi. But if you are interacting with an ENFP who repeatedly emo-pops, whenever questioned, you may just be hitting a defensive Fi reaction deployed as Te, so it may not be worth the effort of logical debate. They are really arguing Fi, not Te. I think arguing Fi in a Te mode is legit-if the topic is one of values or standing up for a value laden cause. But it may not be something you seek to endure

An inside secret-most ENFPs seem to feel like we never work hard enough or are good enough-like Te always judges our efforts as FAIL. So we rely upon NeFi external affirmation to let us know that we are doing a good job, rather than using TeSi to look around at other people and measure our work against their work.

I have noted that when Fi heavy ENFPs are under a bit of stress and you dig past the first few layers, they begin to get very "testy" and agitated and get negative feedback from NeFi. They Ne amplify the information and then totally freak out.

"I just needed to know what search term to use in the oracle quoting module and you seem be having an anxiety attack and are biting my head off." ​

The best solution is to remain very calm and just pretend like nothing out of the ordinary is happening. If you walk away, then come back five minutes later, often they have chilled out a bit and may even apologize.

The problem is that anything we work hard for typically we have an Fi value stake in. We REALLY care. If we come up with ideas-we worked hard for them, as it isnt natural for us to focus this way-it is energy consuming. Our Te ideas, then become Fi values. So when you question the idea, you end up with a defensive Fi driven Te response-agitation, annoyance.

Myself as an example:

When I was an undergrad I was in chemistry classes with a bunch of ENTPs-very clever. At first I would get really pissed and defensive about the answers to homework problems, because the bastards were always right.

Fi Rule 1=This objective problem is really important to me for some Fi reason.
Fi Rule 2=My Te idea is correct, because I used Fi energy to fuel finding a Te answer=Defensive Fi response of agitation and emo when criticized or wrong.

Then at some point I stopped and self questioned. WTF is all the angst about? If the Fi Rule 1 is really true, then I need THE correct answer, not what I THINK is the correct answer.

Fi Rule 3=Ignore Fi, detach emotionally, stop and listen to the other ideas. Identify the error. Kill the emo. Detach from the idea. (At worst this odd Fi value will cause me to detach emotionally from issues which should be value laden.)

Fi Rule 4=Other people are smarter than you and can see things you cant, thus it is always very important to ask and question, remember what you did incorrectly, and don’t do it again. There is VALUE in understanding the error and in the critique.

Fi Rule 5=Disharmony that results in the correct action is better than harmony that results in incorrect actions. Competence is more important than friendliness.
​

But I guess the trick is that ^^those Fi values are unique to each individual. I hold several of these values VERY dear. Objective logic becomes a value to the best of our abilities. It is sloppy Te, but we try.

It's funny as I think back on your list from awhile ago of "Types of ESTJs" you see IRL and I could come up with a list of "Types of ENFPs" to match it.

 

[Starry]

skylights - Your point about going towards people when you are stressed, whereas Fe/Ti moves away is bang on. Do you think this has anything to do with extroversion/introversion, or is it solely a Fe/Ti and Fi/Te thing? I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm not sure. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I think that's a big source of conflicts on the forums. Right when I want to distance myself slightly so that I can come back and be gracious, the Fi/Te person follows me there and I get short with them. They feel rejected because I don't want to engage and it feels to them like maybe I am also being inauthentic. Yet if I give them the full load of how I am feeling at that moment, it won't be pleasant for them and may do damage. I want time to recalibrate my emotions and return when I am able to be more even keeled. In any of the situations where I have seen problems, I think this is at play. I'd be interested in hearing from the INFPs though and seeing their take on it.

All right...I admit it. I haven't read this entire thread. I didn't even read skylights bit that you are refering to here fidelia (sorry). But this did catch my eye...because I consider myself to be 100% ENFP...however...I always (keyword 'always') move away from people when stressed. Truth be told...I don't completely understand all of this Fi/Te Fe/Ti jazz. What I do know is I generally feel responsible for the 'happiness' of any interaction I have. In other words...whether I am conversing with a group or an individual...I feel like it is somehow my responsibility to make sure everyone feels 'happy & loved' (I'm sure that sounds painfully cheesy). Obviously, when I am in a crappy mood...I don't have the energy to make sure everyone is having a fab time so I move as far away from 'everyone' as possible. I totally isolate myself.

When I read skylights stuff...I can tell that we are two different expressions of ENFP. However, I do feel several ENFPs on this forum can probably relate to what I am saying. Just sayin... LOL.

 

[Forever_Jung]

What I do know is I generally feel responsible for the 'happiness' of any interaction I have. In other words...whether I am conversing with a group or an individual...I feel like it is somehow my responsibility to make sure everyone feels 'happy & loved' (I'm sure that sounds painfully cheesy).

I am not saying that you're not an ENFP, but that quality is very Fe.

 

[Starry]

I am not saying that you're not an ENFP, but that quality is very Fe.

Yah...I know...(that was sweet the way you put that...'I am not saying...'). I guess I am really kinda confused about the Fi/Fe thing because I do relate, very much, to so many of the Fe qualities. I do have my 'limit' though which is maybe what ends up 'setting me apart'? I don't know. I am thinking of Peacebaby's 'work example' when she felt the safety of others was in the balance (don't know if you are familiar with that thread). I would do something that would temporarily disrupt the peace of the group if I felt it would lead to a better sense of group well-being in the end. But yah...I am very 'other focused'...and I often wish I wasn't! I also wish I could control something...anything(!)...in my life! LOL.

 

[EJCC]

Perhaps the best way to approach the online debate-is to treat the enfp as an individual and base your decision on their historical ability to remain reasonable. Every ENFP will occasionally emo-pop, be irritable and show defensive Fi. But if you are interacting with an ENFP who repeatedly emo-pops, whenever questioned, you may just be hitting a defensive Fi reaction deployed as Te, so it may not be worth the effort of logical debate. They are really arguing Fi, not Te. I think arguing Fi in a Te mode is legit-if the topic is one of values or standing up for a value laden cause. But it may not be something you seek to endure

True that. I can really only debate people when they're operating based on evidence, because any other debating (including Fi debating) is pure rhetoric - and I can't really handle that. What usually happens is that I get exasperated and go "How the hell am I supposed to reason with you?! Fine. We'll agree to disagree." and the person I'm debating with (as well as whoever's in the audience, if there is an audience) takes that as admittance of defeat. GOD is that infuriating.

They Ne amplify the information and then totally freak out.

What do you mean by "Ne amplify"? What's the thought process there?

The problem is that anything we work hard for typically we have an Fi value stake in. We REALLY care. If we come up with ideas-we worked hard for them, as it isnt natural for us to focus this way-it is energy consuming. Our Te ideas, then become Fi values. So when you question the idea, you end up with a defensive Fi driven Te response-agitation, annoyance.

It's interesting - I really relate to about two thirds of this. I do sometimes get upset by being proven wrong, even when that isn't rational, and I do have to make myself quit bitching (internally) about it, when that happens. However, I'm not sure if that's Fi. I don't turn the facts into values, necessarily; but I instinctively take those corrections as defeat, and as a result I feel not just embarrassed, but humiliated. So, could you elaborate/clarify a little bit on how those facts become Fi?

Or did you mean that those facts merge themselves with the Fi values that you listed later in your post?

It's funny as I think back on your list from awhile ago of "Types of ESTJs" you see IRL and I could come up with a list of "Types of ENFPs" to match it.

Oh man, I remember that! I wish there was an easy way to sort through that thread to find answers quickly, so I could review it.

And speaking of types of ENFPs, this thread is making me wish I definitely knew ENFPs irl. All the ones I've been referring to, in terms of my interactions with them, have been on this site.

Yah...I know...(that was sweet the way you put that...'I am not saying...'). I guess I am really kinda confused about the Fi/Fe thing because I do relate, very much, to so many of the Fe qualities. I do have my 'limit' though which is maybe what ends up 'setting me apart'? I don't know. I am thinking of Peacebaby's 'work example' when she felt the safety of others was in the balance (don't know if you are familiar with that thread). I would do something that would temporarily disrupt the peace of the group if I felt it would lead to a better sense of group well-being in the end. But yah...I am very 'other focused'...and I often wish I wasn't! I also wish I could control something...anything(!)...in my life! LOL.

Do you know your enneagram type? 'Cause you could be a 2. Or you could just have very strong Fe and still be ENFP. I dunno - these things aren't set in stone.

 

[Starry]

Do you know your enneagram type? 'Cause you could be a 2. Or you could just have very strong Fe and still be ENFP. I dunno - these things aren't set in stone.

Okay…I am totally ‘talking out loud here so please bare with me’…but there are times I wonder how much ‘overcompensation’ comes into play. I question these kinds of things because I am just a person that believes ‘looks’ can often be deceiving. And so I wonder…ENFPs for example. There are a lot of people that may assume ENFPs are pretty self-centered…and hey…I have met many self-centered ENFPs in my day.

Yet I wonder how much of that self-centeredness stems from a hidden desire to ‘please others’ and make sure ‘the group’ is contented. The self-centeredness is an overcompensation. Being controlling may come from a place of… ‘look…I need you to be okay…okay? You see…I’m not completely okay right now and deep down inside I know I need to focus on myself…but I need you to be okay so I won’t focus on you’

Please don’t think anything I wrote above I actually believe. Oh and I am totally sober. I’m serious. A sober e6.