[NF] Empathy vs. Sympathy

[skylights]

so proteanmix, what are your thoughts about empathy, starting with that it's used by both Fi and Fe dom/aux? do you think that Fi/Fe use certain types of empathy in different ways, or with different strategies?

i have to point out that my Fe dom mom (haha, dom-mom) seems to be much more affected by sad stories in the news than i am. she seems to feel it within herself much more than i do. i don't know why this is.

she also doesn't subscribe to situational emotion like i do... like, i can get in an argument with someone and be really pissed off at them, but then once we're done, i figure the emotion is done. i assume that our relationship is back to what it was pre-argument, that the argument was an aberration in our otherwise baseline good relationship. i have recently learned that two Fe doms close to me do not feel this way at all, that the argument is more of a fluid part of the relationship, not an aberration.

but i don't know if this is all type related, or is just me occasionally being rather dense.

 

[raz]

So if my Fe friend and I come across a bleeding dog on the road - I'd internally feel that pain and thinking to myself, what if I was that animal, what if I was bleeding after being run over by a car, that poor animal was just walking along and this huge truck comes and...

It's not that it matters only because I can see a different scenario, I also know that the animal is a separate being and just by existing as a living thing deserves a better outcome than lying on some road in brutal pain- part of that (what I will now call 'heavy thinking' stems from Fi as in I have these values and expectations so I get philosophical and deep about a singular insignificant incident and ponder about life...not always but sometimes, Fe don't do that)

This block made me think a lot. With this scenario, I'd treat it differently. I'd be thinking, "Oh wow! A hurt dog! It's going to get hit! Wait, if I run out to help it, I might be hit. I should call an ambulance. By the time they get here, the dog might be dead. That's a waste of a phone call. Okay. Keep moving."

It just made me think about how much I employ Te in my daily decisions. Say for instance, some homeless person asks me for money. My internal reasoning is, "This guy needs money. Uhh, my money is my money, whether it's a penny or 100 dollars. Who knows what he'd use the money on anyway? You can't trust anyone. Besides, why does my life involve this random guy? What happens with his life has no impact on my own. I'm walking past him."

I mean, I can feel compassion for people or understand their feelings on a deeper level, but I'm much more swayed by a logical evaluation of the situation.

 

[hybrid_rainbow]

I don't know much about Fi vs Fe...but I thought I'd throw some different fodder in the mix.

I once read the following:
"The most important contributing factor to this uncanny gift, however, are the empathic abilities often found in Fs, which seem to be especially heightened in the INFJ type (possibly by the dominance of the introverted N function)"
INFJ Profile

I don't know if this is right or if it is BS (all I know is that I think I'm fairly emphathetic as an INFJ)...but maybe we should be considering other functions in addition to Fi vs Fe? Maybe Fs with either Fi OR Ni are more empathetic than sympathetic? Just a shot in the dark.

 

[INTP]

I don't know much about Fi vs Fe...but I thought I'd throw some different fodder in the mix.

I once read the following:
"The most important contributing factor to this uncanny gift, however, are the empathic abilities often found in Fs, which seem to be especially heightened in the INFJ type (possibly by the dominance of the introverted N function)"
INFJ Profile

I don't know if this is right or if it is BS (all I know is that I think I'm fairly emphathetic as an INFJ)...but maybe we should be considering other functions in addition to Fi vs Fe? Maybe Fs with either Fi OR Ni are more empathetic than sympathetic? Just a shot in the dark.

i think this Fe empathy is bit different than Fi empathy. i think Fe kinda reads other peoples emotions and it is capable to compare them to his own past emotions and understand how the other person feels making him empathize. But the difference is that Fi can empathize in much pure way, like reading into other peoples feelings by putting himself in the other persons situation, not reading other person then comparing the emotions that Fe gathers to himself. If Fe cant understand why the other persons feels the way he does, it cant compare those feelings to his own or what he might feel himself in the situation, same if the Fe user cant "collect" same kind of feelings inside of him by Si or Ni he wont be able to relate to them thus making him unable to empathize. I think there is pitfall on Fi empathizing also, since Ne or Se can misinterpret the situation leading the Fi empathize on a false feeling.

That last sentence made me figure something out. It seems that Fi dom might more easily misinterpret the situation than Ne dom because the perceiving function isnt as evolved(or if it isnt). My infp friend is really good at empathizing, but he can easily misinterpret the other persons feelings usually exaggerating them making him to empathize on feelings that are stronger what the other person is actually feeling.
Im not sure if this is just his problem or if other infps do this too, but it would be nice to hear other peoples opinions about this.

 

[Thalassa]

Would you care to address my points about perceived empathy, empathetic concern, and empathetic accuracy? Or the ones about how you measure the amount of empathy you have to know you have more of it?

Perceived empathy could be emotional projection, which is something which I already pointed out. It's not always accurate. But empathetic concern is well-meaning and inspired by relating to the other person's pain, by being able to actually identify with their situation. Empathetic accuracy can only be confirmed through communicating with the other person. However, accuracy isn't the point here - I never argued that Fi was ever more empathetically accurate, but that it is most frequently Fi's motivation. Strong internalized feelings of identification- whether projected or accurate - are what tends to drive Fi. This is not to say that Fe does not experience it, or that Fi is always correct.

No I am not. I think you're missing mine. I'm saying that empathy is more complex than anything you're using as proof and by you dogmatically sticking to your claim that Fi is more empathetic, you are not acknowledging the multitude of ways empathy is defined and expressed.

This is from wiki, read it yourself:


How can you directly correlate all those variables to just Fi alone or claim that Fi is the single function responsible for empathy? You keep trying to turn this into a one-trick pony kind of deal, when it's more than that. Additionally, you're not acknowledging that it's teachable, learnable, contextual, dependent on perception, cultural, experiential, cognitive, instinctual, none of that. It just is what it is and whatever it is, you got lots of it.

Ok, I agree with your point that empathy is learnable, contextual, etc. That doesn't change the idea that the very nature of Fi is to be driven by what it identifies with, for good or ill. Just because this is usually Fi's motivation doesn't mean that empathy isn't experienced in other ways.

For example, in your little story above the inability of Rebe and the other ENFP to think outside of their own emotional reaction, hey that's the EXACT OPPOSITE empathy:


They can't even step outside of their own experiences to interact with the other person...perspective taking is an element of empathy. You're describing people that aren't perspective-taking because they're stuck in their own! And read the bolded above: there are dimensions of empathy. Not just one thing or one definition...it's those components I'm harping about.

I disagree that Rebe's reaction was the exact opposite of empathy. It may not encompass every aspect of empathy, but yes, she is taking on the perspective of the animals who are suffering. Putting yourself in their shoes. Imagining what it's like to be them. It's not even a conscious action - it just happens. People who are actually MOTIVATED by these profound feelings will break out of their own reaction and it becomes the platform for actions performed because of this particular type of empathy i.e. becoming an animal rights activist because of this intense emotional experience, or something similar. That would be the mature expression of Fi style empathy, the emotional experience is just the starting point, the platform for actions performed.

What I'm trying to do by insisting that you're being 1D in your understanding of what empathy is try to engage you in a conversation about the other elements of empathy but you keep going back to typology to explain yourself. You can't even extricate your mind from MBTI enough to talk about this.

I do not disagree that there are other, complex forms of empathy, but that still doesn't change my position that the basic motive of Fi is based in intense feelings of emotional identification. That doesn't mean that Fi always is mature enough to act appropriately based upon motivation, or that people with Fe don't experience empathy as well.

In the end it's about motivation, truthfully, not behavior or end result.

The reason why I am arguing in an MBTI format is because that's on-topic. That's what the OP is about. That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the validity of your points.

 

[Thalassa]

i have to point out that my Fe dom mom (haha, dom-mom) seems to be much more affected by sad stories in the news than i am. she seems to feel it within herself much more than i do. i don't know why this is.

This is possibly because she's F dom and your aux F isn't relied upon as much for whatever reason, possibly just not at this point in your life, but will develop more later on.

she also doesn't subscribe to situational emotion like i do... like, i can get in an argument with someone and be really pissed off at them, but then once we're done, i figure the emotion is done. i assume that our relationship is back to what it was pre-argument, that the argument was an aberration in our otherwise baseline good relationship. i have recently learned that two Fe doms close to me do not feel this way at all, that the argument is more of a fluid part of the relationship, not an aberration.

but i don't know if this is all type related, or is just me occasionally being rather dense.

That's interesting because my experience has been the opposite - especially with men with Fe...they seem to want things to comfortably go back to "normal" and to continue talking about it or holding a grudge or unresolved issues seems to annoy them, like I'm being selfish and threatening the very nature of the relationship by not letting it go when they've decided they're "done" and therefore I should...behave myself?...if I want the relationship to continue without consequences.

My ENFJ sister also wants me to "behave myself" as well, like, "Okay, okay you've expressed your feelings...now let it go. Kthnxbye" seems to be her attitude. It could be just me, but Fe seems very prone to wanting things to be resolved, even if it feels premature or forced to me. It's like to them, the relationship won't be made better by talking about it more or things changing, but by the two of us just going back to behaving nicely to each other.

Does that make any sense at all?

EDIT: That last sentence really may have been a breakthrough for me...the relationship will only be made better if we stop fighting and treat each other nicely...I guess that's not that crazy. Maybe dragging it out looks to them like a real threat to the stability of the relationship? That relating is ultimately just about us being pleasant to each other...not trying to uncover any profound, painful, deep truth...and that my digging just looks like emotional instigating?

Does anybody feel me here?

 

[stalemate]

EDIT: That last sentence really may have been a breakthrough for me...the relationship will only be made better if we stop fighting and treat each other nicely...I guess that's not that crazy. Maybe dragging it out looks to them like a real threat to the stability of the relationship? That relating is ultimately just about us being pleasant to each other...not trying to uncover any profound, painful, deep truth...and that my digging just looks like emotional instigating?

Does anybody feel me here?

I am somewhat with you on this. I don't know about the types or functions of many of the people involved, but this is one thing that drives me crazy about my wife's family. It is like they think as long as their aren't external signs of a problem, then there isn't a problem. As long as everyone is acting nice and pretending to like each other, everything is great, even if everyone knows there is some big conflict just under the surface. My wife is ESFJ, no idea about the rest of her family and her mom is likely bipolar and definitely not easily typed.

 

[Thalassa]

I am somewhat with you on this. I don't know about the types or functions of many of the people involved, but this is one thing that drives me crazy about my wife's family. It is like they think as long as their aren't external signs of a problem, then there isn't a problem. As long as everyone is acting nice and pretending to like each other, everything is great, even if everyone knows there is some big conflict just under the surface. My wife is ESFJ, no idea about the rest of her family and her mom is likely bipolar and definitely not easily typed.

Well, I'm pretty sure my ex is an ESFJ and when he was done fighting, he didn't want to hear about what he had done, or discuss it any longer, he wasn't open to change, or ideas about what should prevent it from happening again...he just wanted to act sweet and cute and nice and have me act normal again, too, because he was...and if I didn't, I was just being a "dweller" and an instigator, and possibly even a bitch. This was pretty clearly stated in no uncertain terms. Of course, his parents have been married for like 35 years and haven't divorced despite things like his mom gambling away the family savings, and his dad pushing his mom out of a moving vehicle. I guess he figured that,err... love conquers all, and it does it by STFU or GTFO.
That's part of the reason why we aren't together anymore. I mean, I loved him, but I wasn't really keen on the idea of being pushed out of a moving vehicle someday and being expected to forgive, and only perhaps passively seek vengeance by maxing out his credit cards. Ahem.

I have other examples, but I'd rather not post them at the moment. I think you get the idea.

EDIT: I'd like to point out though that I totally dig the SFJ blind acceptance if they care about you/love you or whatever, though. I really loved that about my ex. I just couldn't deal with the learned tendency toward domestic violence.

 

[Glycerine]

when he was done fighting, he didn't want to hear about what he had done, or discuss it any longer, he wasn't open to change, or ideas about what should prevent it from happening again...

The way you described the interactions with the ESFJ is how I feel with my INFP mother. She's awesome in most ways but when there's a conflict, it is almost NEVER her fault. It is almost always completely the other person's fault so I end up usually doing what you just described and then she downplays how I feel about the situation. :steam: damn the enneagram 2 martyr complex. It sucks majorly to have all F doms in the house...gahhh. It seems that onany given day, at least one person in the house steps on someone's values. However, I still strongly believe that there are so MANY other dynamics that Fe/Fi really only play a small part in this situation. I can definitely see how both Fe and Fi can do that pretty easily.

 

[Thalassa]

The way you described the interactions with the ESFJ is how I feel with my INFP mother. She's awesome in most ways but when there's a conflict, it is almost NEVER her fault. It is almost always completely the other person's fault so I end up usually doing what you just described and then she downplays how I feel about the situation. :steam: damn the enneagram 2 martyr complex. It sucks majorly to have all F doms in the house...gahhh. It seems that onany given day, at least one person in the house steps on someone's values. However, I still strongly believe that there are so MANY other dynamics that Fe/Fi really only play a small part in this situation. I can definitely see how both Fe and Fi can do that pretty easily.

I think "if everything looks okay, it is" might be less-than-healthy Si/Fe, not just Fe specific...it's not that it was never his fault - that's not what I'm saying, it's not that he NEVER took responsibility or saw himself as the victim, so I think this is different than your INFP mother - it's just that he wanted things to snap back on track, as though that in and of itself fixes everything. His attitude wasn't that he was never wrong, but that clearly the way to set things right...is to act as though...nothing is wrong.

I'm pretty sure he's ESFJ - it wasn't my first guess, but after learning more about MBTI I can scarcely see him as any other type, for lots of other reasons. On the good side, he was very nurturing and attentive in a certain way, etc.

 

[sculpting]

yippie!!!! empathy vs sympathy!!!! I love this topic for the 800th time!!!

Normally I very strongly have a physiological mirrored response to another person's hurt. I understand this could be incorrect as I am projecting what I would perceive them to feel, and feeling that, not their real pain. Still hurts like hell.

Normally I feel very little "sympathy". I expect others to be strong and when they have problems to do the best they can to resolve the problem. I can give them advice or listen to them, but to say words of condolence sounds false and it feels like I am insulting them or belittling their ability in some way.

Now....*Michievious giggles* I have been following the INFJ thread and trying to actively listen and ask more and more questions of others-Fe users in particular and not try and Te solve problems. I think of it as empathic listening rather than experimentation.

So at first I am uncertain what to say...I nod and listen and then I ask them questions, then more questions. After a short bit suddenly it is like my brain switches gears and I know exactly what to say and what to ask....and then I am not trying to feel them anymore with Fi. Fi is a few steps away. I actually care what they say...that sounds real bad, huh. I really want to know more about how they feel, about their families, about their problems. But I dont have to feel any of it myself, I just feel sort of side by side with them. I feel happiness or sadness for them, but I dont hurt deeply inside or feel overwhelmed with stress and anxiety because I am not making them part of my emotional construct anymore.

The internal empathic reponse is instinctual but energy draining as it hurts to work through that pain. This side-by side stuff is actually energizing as .....I dunno why...I feel myself more and more pulled to listen more and more....

And instead of making my own internal Fi pain go away by trying to solve their problems with Te...instead I can just listen and let them talk about how they feel about stuff. I dont try and solve the problem, but just agree it would be unpleasent and listen and agree and ask and stuff....

Now the sympathy words feel perfectly fine to use, not at all inauthentic, because i really do care...and the words are how I care about them. It is what they need to hear at that moment.

I think this is sympathy? Hell I dunno, I need to go experiment, I mean, actively listen some more...

 

[skylights]

Now....*Michievious giggles* I have been following the INFJ thread and trying to actively listen and ask more and more questions of others-Fe users in particular and not try and Te solve problems. I think of it as empathic listening rather than experimentation.

So at first I am uncertain what to say...I nod and listen and then I ask them questions, then more questions. After a short bit suddenly it is like my brain switches gears and I know exactly what to say and what to ask....and then I am not trying to feel them anymore with Fi. Fi is a few steps away. I actually care what they say...that sounds real bad, huh. I really want to know more about how they feel, about their families, about their problems. But I dont have to feel any of it myself, I just feel sort of side by side with them. I feel happiness or sadness for them, but I dont hurt deeply inside or feel overwhelmed with stress and anxiety because I am not making them part of my emotional construct anymore.

so this totally reminds me,

recently, i was sitting next to a woman on a plane who struck up a conversation with me. i wasn't really in a conversational mood, and i was a little nervous that it would get really awkward and then i would feel bad about not being able to sustain conversation and her thinking i didn't like/wasn't interested in her or something.

but anyway, she seemed cool, but i didn't really know what to say right off the bat that would be socially appropriate (what i wanted to ask her was like, what sweet music have you heard lately?! what hobbies do you do?! what are your life dreams?! but we'd just met) -- so i thought about what my (ESFJ) mom might say (because my mom is socially amazing) and asked her about how she got into her job, etc.

and shit, it was like, the conversation flowed and flourished and we talked about our ups and downs and lives and interests and all it needed was that little return to social awareness every once in a while to keep it mutually comfortable.

hello Fe.

==

was that on topic? kind of not.

that was really interesting though orobas. i think you have something with the "emotional construct" thing. like, you can feel it together, but that emotion doesn't have to become a part of you, which is what Fi users seem to naturally want to do. i automatically try to incorporate that experience into my construct of wisdom from experience, but that does involve a lot of inwardly-directed thinking and moving through the emotional-cognitive process yourself -- plus it's a little tricky because i haven't exactly been there done that, Ne has to kind of fill in the blanks i guess. it kind of increases distance with others even though you're kind of incorporating them into you. paradoxical, i guess, but explains some of why Fi dom/aux always seem a tiny bit distant. not that Fe dom/aux can't too, but INFJ/ENFJ distance seems more aware/intentional.

and that whole construct thing, does Ti do that too? that could make sense. i need to go talk about this in that other thread lol

anyway yall know how all NFs can have that "old soul" vibe going on sometimes? maybe this is, in part, what gives Fi dom/aux that "old soul" feeling sometimes, since we incorporate everything. Fe dom/aux seems more "old soul" because they know exactly what to do to make everything okay.

 

[Glycerine]

I think "if everything looks okay, it is" might be less-than-healthy Si/Fe, not just Fe specific...it's not that it was never his fault - that's not what I'm saying, it's not that he NEVER took responsibility or saw himself as the victim, so I think this is different than your INFP mother - it's just that he wanted things to snap back on track, as though that in and of itself fixes everything. His attitude wasn't that he was never wrong, but that clearly the way to set things right...is to act as though...nothing is wrong.

I'm pretty sure he's ESFJ - it wasn't my first guess, but after learning more about MBTI I can scarcely see him as any other type, for lots of other reasons. On the good side, he was very nurturing and attentive in a certain way, etc.

Mow that you mention it, my ESFJ dad does this a lot with me and my mom. The dynamics can get quite interesting.

 

[You]

Empaths have super powers in X-Men.

Sympathy doesn't give you any super powers. Other than the power to cry. Chuck Norris told me that.

 

[sculpting]

that was really interesting though orobas. i think you have something with the "emotional construct" thing. like, you can feel it together, but that emotion doesn't have to become a part of you, which is what Fi users seem to naturally want to do. i automatically try to incorporate that experience into my construct of wisdom from experience, but that does involve a lot of inwardly-directed thinking and moving through the emotional-cognitive process yourself -- plus it's a little tricky because i haven't exactly been there done that, Ne has to kind of fill in the blanks i guess. it kind of increases distance with others even though you're kind of incorporating them into you. paradoxical, i guess, but explains some of why Fi dom/aux always seem a tiny bit distant. not that Fe dom/aux can't too, but INFJ/ENFJ distance seems more aware/intentional.

and that whole construct thing, does Ti do that too? that could make sense. i need to go talk about this in that other thread lol

anyway yall know how all NFs can have that "old soul" vibe going on sometimes? maybe this is, in part, what gives Fi dom/aux that "old soul" feeling sometimes, since we incorporate everything. Fe dom/aux seems more "old soul" because they know exactly what to do to make everything okay.

This will sound totally crazy...I have been ruminating on some of this for a long time, I dont know if it is all correct at all, but since you seem interested...

Once I was thinking about long lost friends I will never see again...I felt an upwelling of love for them..I felt still connected...Like a invisible, emotional tie binds us forever. I thought everybody did this, but they dont and many even think it is bizarre..

I also feel emotional connection, akin to very deep caring, to several folks here that I have never met, and likely will never meet. It doesnt matter. I still care for them-love.

If I never see them again....what am I connecting to?? In a bizarre moment of thought, I realized it was myself somehow. How can I connect to someone else, if I am only me? (assuming the lack of souls and such)

I think with Fi we mirror/model/map/simulate our emotional world..the "emotional construct".

I think we mirror other people and build them as part of our Fi construct. I'd suggest the gaps are filled by Ne, but the final result is an FiSi model we can use for reference. Fi users are well known for not making eye contact during emo moments...we are looking inside...at the construct of that person we created-their simulacrum. No matter where they go, we will always be connected...as we built the person into being part of ourselves.

When they hurt, my construct of them hurts, thus I hurt. I seek to relieve their pain. With Se in 8th place, physical contact is meaningless. It takes time to change my view of a person as I have to edit that construct though...

It is dangerous to let them become too deeply ingrained in our construct as we have to cut out a part of ourselves and destroy it if we have to cut them off. It is hard to hate or feel mean angry emotions at another person...as we are really hating our construct of them...thus hating ourselves. So we forgive very easily. It is very horrible if I hurt someone I care about..as then I get trapped in my own pain I feel for them, a part of my own construct, and get trapped in a bad place.

A very dangerous thing is that we can feel love for those we have never meet...and be deeply hurt when they never understand that those emotions were very real for us...as they cannot feel love unless they are physically with another person. Neither is wrong or right, but are perceptions of the world do differ...

Because our construct is us...when someone attacks us..we defend it sharply..defensive Fi...because they are hurting us. They are hurting our constructs....thus they are hurting all of those we care about...

So while totally isolated, apparently selfish, with Fi or harsh with Te....we in reality carry everyone we love within us and bear their pain, and are driven to help quell that pain. Yup, I sometimes shut all of that off and come across as Te bitchy....

So that ability to step away from this...I agree it might be shades of Fe....but it is very welcome. To be able to emotionally connect and care very deeply, authentically, for another, but not have to carry them as part of me......well I think I will keep practicing that as I do like it very much... It is such a relief.

 

[skylights]

YES YES YES to EVERYTHING

Once I was thinking about long lost friends I will never see again...I felt an upwelling of love for them..I felt still connected...Like a invisible, emotional tie binds us forever. I thought everybody did this, but they dont and many even think it is bizarre..

me too. it doesn't sound crazy to me at all. i know it's been affirmed a few times in that ENFP Possessiveness thread that ENFPs never really stop loving someone they've loved. i feel this same way with places i was once attached to and will probably never go again. it makes me sad that i won't see them again but instead i carry them inside of me (FiSi?) and it's that whole global connection thing, you know? i do want to be a part of everything and everyone and have everything and everyone be a part of me. i can't even begin to fathom why... there's something almost spiritual about it...

so Ne collects, Fi decides what it values and wants to add, Te projects and/or Si stores. this all works with the Jungian descriptions. Ne gathers info from outside, Fi decides, and Si gathers info from inside when summoned - though our Si isn't great, so we remember just was most important to us - which would be mostly feelings (especially enjoyable feelings) and major ideas/lessons learned, not really the whole picture. makes well for rose-colored glasses, doesn't it?

not that i really have a problem with that... we just need a workaround code sometimes... speaking of -- Te does check things out logically if we have to present them externally, which is which is why we're figuring out stuff about ourselves while we talk maybe this is why our little supposedly extraverted selves love message boards so much! not only do we get to talk about tons of new ideas with lots of people but we also figure things out when we talk and it doesn't require the other person to listen to us in real time... lol...

I think we mirror other people and build them as part of our Fi construct. I'd suggest the gaps are filled by Ne, but the final result is an FiSi model we can use for reference. Fi users are well known for not making eye contact during emo moments...we are looking inside...at the construct of that person we created-their simulacrum. No matter where they go, we will always be connected...as we built the person into being part of ourselves.

When they hurt, my construct of them hurts, thus I hurt. I seek to relieve their pain. With Se in 8th place, physical contact is meaningless. It takes time to change my view of a person as I have to edit that construct though...

It is dangerous to let them become too deeply ingrained in our construct as we have to cut out a part of ourselves and destroy it if we have to cut them off. It is hard to hate or feel mean angry emotions at another person...as we are really hating our construct of them...thus hating ourselves. So we forgive very easily. It is very horrible if I hurt someone I care about..as then I get trapped in my own pain I feel for them, a part of my own construct, and get trapped in a bad place.

A very dangerous thing is that we can feel love for those we have never meet...and be deeply hurt when they never understand that those emotions were very real for us...as they cannot feel love unless they are physically with another person. Neither is wrong or right, but are perceptions of the world do differ...

this is brilliant particularly... it explains, perhaps, why we do have such hard times letting go of people romantically - we take them all in and get terribly close to them, so close that they become a huge part of who we are. and sometimes they didn't even get that close to us, so that it seems like not that big of a deal on their part, whereas we're having to break down and rebuild a huge part of our identity to move on. that, or we cut and run before they do, immediately seizing onto the next person so that we can start rebuilding our identity right away, and not have to experience that painful breakdown.

i totally agree about anger too. i cannot stand there being conflict with someone. if this is all right, then when i say i feel like i'm being "torn up" inside is actually rather literally true - my internal version of them and our harmonious relationship is being torn up by all our negative emotions. and Ne just spices it all up with relevant possibility. i typically build a whole NeFi scenario of god what if something happens to them in the time between us being angry and resolving the conflict, they could think i hated them and that may cause them emotional pain and that would be horrible...

perhaps this is why i cannot seem to cut myself off from my own emotions and just get work done, while an ENFJ friend of mine can. it's not the difference between T and F, it's the difference between Fi and Fe. and when escape from the world of interior feeling is needed, it's better to resort to Se and Te/Ti, not feelings-based Fi values or past-based Si databases. logical thinking + present experience = escape.

this all makes me feel oddly liberated. as much as i love having the strengths and even the quirks of an ENFP, there are some things that are very difficult -- i think i've voiced them before as "just caring too damn much". it'd be nice to figure out how to work around that for the sake of everyone sometimes.

(personal relationship angst part cut and pasted below; read at discretion. it was a valuable realization on my part so i figured i'd post it just in case anyone else might benefit, but it really is kind of angsty.)
when i'm breaking up with someone, the pain is so much in the loss of shared inside jokes and past experiences (Fi Si) and all my projection about how well we have worked and will work together (Ne Fi and Si)... and to a certain extent, all the things about them that i've gained through them and will no longer have. wow, that sounds selfish, but i don't really mean in a material sense, more like experiential. like the people i know through them, it just becomes awkward, but i don't want to lose all those people either. and more than anything, it just seems like we have this huge whole ground of common experience and affection between us, and there are so many ways it could work out, why start all over again with someone new when i still love you and we can fix this? that's always my problem. though i guess... i guess it could be fun to start all over again with someone new. wow, it really could be. holy crap, am i moving on?

 

[sculpting]

skylights you are dead on....these seems like it should have a new thread...is it okay if I cut and paste your quotes?

hugs.

 

[proteanmix]

Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/15249-enfp-s-deep-intense-empathy-gift-curse.html?

It's like there can never be a discussion about anything here without it being dominated by a certain POV. Yall don't ever try to engage or facilitate discussion, never try to ask other people what their processes are, always try to dissect yourselves ad nauseam. There is no dialogue, just a series of people contributing their own monologues, obsessed with their own thoughts and processes and only really trying to talk to other people who process like them who can monologue with them. I don't know how you all think dialogue occurs but it my mind you open up spaces by actively asking and engaging other people to offer input.

This breaks it down better than I can:

Dialogue tools help individuals understand across differences, share experiences, listen for common threads in someone else's viewpoint, combine diverse ideas or cultural ways of looking at things to solve problems, gather data to see a full-systems perspective on an issue or opportunity, engage people, foster collaboration, and tap into rich knowledge and cultural diversity in the process....

The process, which is also the goal: Raise the capacity of individuals to engage others in dialogue - and to be able to listen well to consider another's experience. This raises the capacity of all Americans to be better neighbors - in their organizations, communities, and as world neighbors. Better family members. Better voters. Better world travelers, peace-builders, inquirers, co-workers, collaborators, idea generators - better citizens of the world...

That right there is a major component of empathy, in fact it's called empathetic listening. STFU and letting others speak, asking people to share their experiences not asserting the foolishness that was thrown around earlier in this thread. That particular process is called empathetic accuracy, listening to others to make sure your sense of empathy was correct and not some ego-stroke in your head to validate your sense of self and never trying to verify if you were right about what you felt.

Do you all ever notice that FJs barely ever participate in such discussions and when they do it tends to be defensively? Why do you think that happens? There certainly are enough thoughtful IxFJs here to make solid contributions. We've had more and more Fe doms show up, but they don't interject much. And other types barely utter a peep. Why do you all think that is or have you not even noticed it (probably the latter)? Do you notice it and think this is no participation because there is no understanding or ability to relate, which is flat out wrong? I have tried to believe this is not an Fi/Fe thing, but maybe it just is and that's a sad thought to me.

That's why I have my doubts about people's supposed powers of empathy. I don't feel like I have empathy coming back from the majority of NFPs on this forum. Maybe you all feel it with each other, but I don't feel it. And if you can only create an empathetic link with people who are like you and process like you then what kind of empathy is that? I can't speak for other people, so I'll contain this to myself. I don't feel particularly like my POV is understood and thank goodness I'm not looking for it to be validated here...I got over that in 2008.

I do strongly feel that erroneous and incomplete information needs to be addressed because I hate for misinformation to be spread about like it's fact, which is my stake in this discussion. That's why I brought up the concepts of empathetic accuracy and perceived empathy. To me, not including those ingredients is like trying to bake a cake with no flour, eggs, sugar, butter, and milk and then steadily asserting that what you have in the oven is in fact a cake.

 

[stalemate]

Don't you all have a thread for this already http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/15249-enfp-s-deep-intense-empathy-gift-curse.html?

Don't we already have posts about how there are already threads for this?

 

[sculpting]

hey Pro...I moved our convo up to the ENFJ common issues thread as it contains many of the elemnets that were discussed on the INFJ common issues thread regarding Fe/Te communications

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/33660-common-enfj-issues-3.html#post1272898