[NF] Empathy vs. Sympathy

[kevdod]

Hi NF's, I decided to post this in the NF forum because I figured you would have the best models around this stuff. I have been thinking a lot about the Fe and Fi functions and how they translate into sympathy or empathy.

From my understanding sympathy is an understanding of another's feelings while empathy is actually feeling another's feelings. "You must be in pain" vs. "I feel your pain". And yes, I realize that from an NF's point of view it is far more nuanced than that, but this is really not the point of this post so please give this poor NT a break. ;-)

Through some observation it occurred to me that the Fe function correlates more with sympathy while the Fi function correlates more with empathy.

I arrived at this by noticing that my INFJ and ENFJ friends (Fe types), who were usually very warm and considerate of others, would be very cold and calculating in some situations, while my ENFP and INFP friends (Fi types) who are usually quite self centered would occasionally be overly considerate of another's feelings.

Somehow the Fe types (INFJ, ENFJ) could distance themselves a bit more from the "other" than the Fi types (ENFP, INFP) and I found this to be the exact opposite of what I would of expected.

This lead me to the notion that perhaps the Fe allows for sympathy, as the Fe type is not actually "feeling" the feelings of the other, while the Fi allows for empathy, as the Fi type is actually "feeling" the feelings of the other.

I have also noticed this in myself (ENTP type with Fe) and my INTJ/ENTJ friends (Fi types). Of course we are all cold and robotic by the NF standards ;-), but I find that my Fi NT friends who are usually quite cold are actually more empathetic (when they are inclined to feel), and my Fe NT friends who are normally much nicer, can be more distanced from another's emotions.

If this is all treading on well-trod ground, my apologies. But if not, I would appreciate some thoughts on the issue.

Thanks, Kevin

 

[Vamp]

I tend to view empathy as understanding were someone is coming from and sympathy as feeling their feelings.

I've got some relatively weak Fe; I can understand why things are a certain way but that won't stop me from doing what I have to do. But that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy. Eh, idunno. I feel I've learned to suppress a lot of my Fe because it's too hard to get through life with it constantly causing flickers of a "conscience".

 

[Rebe]

I think Fe is more about acknowledging that the other person is in pain and then, feeling a need to do something to help that person whether by physical or emotional support. I agree that they do not necessarily have to feel the others' pain to want to do something about it.

I am not sure about the definitions of empathy and sympathy. They are often used interchangeably.

And Fi is more about feeling that pain, putting self in that situation and thinking, if I was that person or animal, I would want someone to stand up for me / help me.

So if my Fe friend and I come across a bleeding dog on the road - I'd internally feel that pain and thinking to myself, what if I was that animal, what if I was bleeding after being run over by a car, that poor animal was just walking along and this huge truck comes and...

It's not that it matters only because I can see a different scenario, I also know that the animal is a separate being and just by existing as a living thing deserves a better outcome than lying on some road in brutal pain- part of that (what I will now call 'heavy thinking' stems from Fi as in I have these values and expectations so I get philosophical and deep about a singular insignificant incident and ponder about life...not always but sometimes, Fe don't do that)

For Fe, for sympathy, I think it is more 1) This animal is hurt. 2) What can we do? There's no need to feel their pain or have an existential crisis.

Because of this, Fi has subjective empathy as in if I do not feel that the other person/animal is deserving of my compassion, then you get nothing, no sympathy, no empathy, you deserve whatever horrible thing happened to you. And I may even smile despite that it is truly horrible because well, you are a horrible human being.

This is a loose generalization. I think both types are capable of sympathy and empathy depending on different situations and the people involved. Fi might be more likely to be empathic than sympathetic naturally as it is about taking an internal value from something and bringing that value into our own internal realm, but what I described above is in no way accurate for every XNFP. Just some thoughts on this. I find this interesting.

I was in hysterics one time during a documentary about health care and what really killed me was when this woman said she lost her soul mate to lung cancer that could have (completely) been prevented. (Not that I use the term soul mate' and I have gotten more cynical today.) But on that day, I was completely out of control and sobbing like a lunatic and my Fe friend didn't even blink. She was like, if I knew you were going to be this upset, I wouldn't have bought you to see it.

It's difficult to explain. But I see that for Fi, it is very much an internal process and kind of murky and for Fe, it is straightforward and external.

 

[skylights]

yeah, i agree a lot Rebe. the dog example you gave is totally me, too

This lead me to the notion that perhaps the Fe allows for sympathy, as the Fe type is not actually "feeling" the feelings of the other, while the Fi allows for empathy, as the Fi type is actually "feeling" the feelings of the other.

this is my understanding too.

that empathy is more Fi-related, and involves really being able to feel the same thing the other person feels inside of yourself - since Fi is introverted, after all - and then being able to use that genuine feeling in you to relate to the other person.... which doesn't always lend the same social fluidity as Fe, because it's so individually-based. and i think that generally coldness/reserve on Fi's part is the fact that it is introverted, that we really need to internalize it ourselves first before we can relate, and that we don't always see the bigger external picture...

and then, as i understand it (correct me if i'm wrong for sure), Fe is more about understanding external emotional dynamics, about how you come off and how you can meet others where they are - which is more sympathy, i thought - understanding how they feel but not necessarily being there yourself so much - being able to mirror other's emotions but not necessarily take them on as your own, and understanding social protocol and what behavior is expected. Fe is much better with social fluidity and also the ability to precisely convey coldness if you want - a more calculated and fine-tuned message of removal.

but of course we all use both.

there's a discussion of Fi vs Fe over here that i thought was really interesting i liked this post --

Fi is not about caring about oneself. Fe is not about caring about others. Rather, Fi is where your own feelings occupy your thoughts. Fe is where others' feelings occupy your thoughts.

It is possible for both to be selfish: Fi becomes completely self absorbed, while Fe is ready to evaluate everyone else's values only in relation to one's own values.

It is possible for both to be unselfish: Fi can be a personal feeling of putting oneself in another shoes, while Fe can be employed to not only empathize with others, but to help others feel better and understand their own feelings.

** :idea: -- i wonder if Fi has a lot to do with ENFPs being more introverted extraverts?

 

[Unkindloving]

I view sympathy as having direct experience with a situation, thus being able to feel for it. Empathy is more of the ability to feel for a situation, without having direct experience with it.

I don't think it pertains to Fi or Fe exactly. Both myself and my xNFP friends can empathize, while our IxTJ friends tend to sympathize more. I would say Fe vs Fi tends to affect how one empathizes or sympathizes, but not which does/doesn't.
I think that is where the cold/distant thing comes into play. NFJs can be far more calculated, especially when dealing with emotion. We try to assess things effectively and keep our emotions in check. I've found that i'm more likely to be collected around a person, but then discuss their situation with full concern/emotion to others.

I honestly couldn't expect many of my NT/ST friends to empathize (by my definition) with many people. They've only ever sympathized with each other or sympathized with me until the point where we didn't have any more shared experience in a situation. It's seriously appeared like an on/off switch that they are unaware of themselves.

 

[Jaguar]

empathy - Understanding and entering into another's feelings.

sympathy - Kindness of feeling toward one who suffers; pity; commiseration; compassion.

 

[HotpinkHeatwave]

I'm VERY empathetic.. But not sympathetic.

I am extremely sensitive to the emotions around me, constantly picking them up, and in some cases, feeling them myself.

However, it is almost rare to have my sympathy.

Basically, I will 'feel for you', but I will not 'feel bad for you'.

Sympathy:

Person 1: "My dad died."

Person 2: "I am very sorry to hear that."


Empathy:

Person 1: "My dad died."

Person 2: *Feels hurt, sad, possibly painful*

 

[INTP]

empathy - Understanding and entering into another's feelings.

sympathy - Kindness of feeling toward one who suffers; pity; commiseration; compassion.

This. and generally sympathy is easier given and easier lost than empathy, because it doesent require as much work to sympathize. i bet thats why Fe is usually spread to larger groups at same time than Fi

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah empathy feels the pain of others, or at least identifies with their situation. I think empathy is also more directly affected by the emotions of people around them, therefore causing the empathetic person to be more easily upset by those around them. Like people have already said, an empathetic person can suffer along with someone with intensity, to the point of literally "feeling them" or feel absolutely nothing (or possibly even sadistic glee) if they cannont empathize and think they deserve what they had coming.

Sympathy generally can remain more personally detached and still feel strongly that they must help and do the "right" thing, and while that sounds more cold and rational, it gives them the ability to be able to stop and see things from all sides, and/or to enter into the viewpoints of people they don't necessarily agree with and still be able to treat them with kindness.

It's funny to say that sympathizing doesn't require as much work, like INTP said, because I don't think that's true. I think people who are truly sympathetic must put a lot of effort into attempting to understand people they can't relate to or don't agree with. I tend to think of it as mature Fe use, and it is a gift.

Of course people with Fi can have sympathy, and Fe can experience empathy in some cases...some people more than others, depending on the individual.

I think both empathy and sympathy are good and useful for different reasons, and both can have their drawbacks.

 

[INTP]

It's funny to say that sympathizing doesn't require as much work, like INTP said, because I don't think that's true. I think people who are truly sympathetic must put a lot of effort into attempting to understand people they can't relate to or don't agree with.

But the deal is that when you sympathize, you dont need to understand why the person is feeling the way he is its enough that you understand what the person feels, unlike when empathizing when you need to understand why the person feels that way, if you cant understand why someone feels certain way you wont be able to truly empathize. This is why i think sympathizing doesent require as much work as empathizing. When you empathize and understand the reason, you apply the same reasons that make the other person sad or happy(or what ever the person is feeling) to yourself and look how you would feel in the same situation. But in order to apply sympathy to someone you dont need to understand the reasons, because you wont be applying the reasons for yourself.

 

[Moiety]

I don't like sympathizing. It tends to be slightly condescending in that it doesn't recognize the other person's power and identity and will often feel pity towards people who don't even feel sad about a certain occurrence (usually tied to how permeable a person is to social values). There's no congruence or reasoning but a series of unrelated axioms "in this case you should feel this way" "in that case you should feel that way".

Slightly generalizing but also slightly true.

 

[Vamp]

I don't like sympathizing. It tends to be slightly condescending in that it doesn't recognize the other person's power and identity and will often feel pity towards people who don't even feel sad about a certain occurrence (usually tied to how permeable a person is to social values). There's no congruence or reasoning but a series of unrelated axioms "in this case you should feel this way" "in that case you should feel that way".

Slightly generalizing but also slightly true.

I kinda feel the same way; especially about the bolded part. I always make a point to empathize, to truly understand. I hate it when people don't understand me so I really try to understand others.

 

[Thalassa]

But the deal is that when you sympathize, you dont need to understand why the person is feeling the way he is its enough that you understand what the person feels, unlike when empathizing when you need to understand why the person feels that way, if you cant understand why someone feels certain way you wont be able to truly empathize. This is why i think sympathizing doesent require as much work as empathizing. When you empathize and understand the reason, you apply the same reasons that make the other person sad or happy(or what ever the person is feeling) to yourself and look how you would feel in the same situation. But in order to apply sympathy to someone you dont need to understand the reasons, because you wont be applying the reasons for yourself.

Yeah, and you're speaking from inferior Fe, so it's not surprising that you're referring to the most elemental levels of sympathy. I've witnessed a much, much deeper form of sympathy in some Dom/Aux Fe people, in which they make it their business to try to think about why someone is doing something even if they don't agree with it or relate to it.

Case #1 - the least mature of the Fe Dom/Aux people I know still amazes me because he can be ranting about how he's pissed off at someone, then all of a sudden just stop, and say "well this is probably why they're doing that..." and he'll just turn around and get a grip and see it their way. It's weird. I don't do that when someone pisses me off, at least not that quickly, if at all. He also feels obligated to make sure other people are having a good time apparently, and doesn't really take sides in other people's battles. Feels obligated to help others and defend the underdog. That's what true sympathy does on a slightly higher level.

Case #2 - on a much higher level, another Fe Dom/Aux I know makes it a point to actually be the referree in other people's battles, actively bringing peace to situations by trying to understand everyone's point of view by not taking sides or letting her personal opinions sway her ultimate mission to bring peace to others. She'll also help her loved ones at the drop of the hat, even if that means being dragged out of bed abruptly at four a.m. She may not LIKE it, but sympathy tells her to be understanding to other people's needs.

Case #3 - this person actively engages other people and talks with them and tries to see things the way that they see it, even when she doesn't agree with them or understand them, and also does it without feeling the need to actively interfere in some dramatic way, either. She treats everyone with almost equal, level kindness and quickly seeks to mend ANY misunderstanding, strangely without exercising a propensity to interfere or actively control the situation. Literally impressing me by example and not by any sort of nagging, which I do see in case #2.

From my perspective, all of this does in fact take quite a bit of effort and could even go unappreciated by other people around them who take it for granted. Even if they aren't feeling the feelings of others on a gut level, their sympathy drives them in a very real way that doesn't seem "easy" to me. In fact, as an empath, it would take considerable effort for me to mimic their behavior on a daily basis, especially in cases #2 and #3.

Yes, empathy rips me apart in a way that can shake my core. It can drive me in an indescribably deep way to love and care for other people. But it also is something that allows me to withdraw without obligation. If I get out of bed for someone abruptly at 4 A.M. they better be fucking dying.

 

[INTP]

Yeah, and you're speaking from inferior Fe, so it's not surprising that you're referring to the most elemental levels of sympathy. I've witnessed a much, much deeper form of sympathy in some Dom/Aux Fe people, in which they make it their business to try to think about why someone is doing something even if they don't agree with it or relate to it.

Case #1 - the least mature of the Fe Dom/Aux people I know still amazes me because he can be ranting about how he's pissed off at someone, then all of a sudden just stop, and say "well this is probably why they're doing that..." and he'll just turn around and get a grip and see it their way. It's weird. I don't do that when someone pisses me off, at least not that quickly, if at all. He also feels obligated to make sure other people are having a good time apparently, and doesn't really take sides in other people's battles. Feels obligated to help others and defend the underdog. That's what true sympathy does on a slightly higher level.

Case #2 - on a much higher level, another Fe Dom/Aux I know makes it a point to actually be the referree in other people's battles, actively bringing peace to situations by trying to understand everyone's point of view by not taking sides or letting her personal opinions sway her ultimate mission to bring peace to others. She'll also help her loved ones at the drop of the hat, even if that means being dragged out of bed abruptly at four a.m. She may not LIKE it, but sympathy tells her to be understanding to other people's needs.

Case #3 - this person actively engages other people and talks with them and tries to see things the way that they see it, even when she doesn't agree with them or understand them, and also does it without feeling the need to actively interfere in some dramatic way, either. She treats everyone with almost equal, level kindness and quickly seeks to mend ANY misunderstanding, strangely without exercising a propensity to interfere or actively control the situation. Literally impressing me by example and not by any sort of nagging, which I do see in case #2.

From my perspective, all of this does in fact take quite a bit of effort and could even go unappreciated by other people around them who take it for granted. Even if they aren't feeling the feelings of others on a gut level, their sympathy drives them in a very real way that doesn't seem "easy" to me. In fact, as an empath, it would take considerable effort for me to mimic their behavior on a daily basis, especially in cases #2 and #3.

Yes, empathy rips me apart in a way that can shake my core. It can drive me in an indescribably deep way to love and care for other people. But it also is something that allows me to withdraw without obligation. If I get out of bed for someone abruptly at 4 A.M. they better be fucking dying.

People who have dom/aux Fe also have shadow Fi closer than inferior Fe users, not to mention that they use Ti while of aux/dom Fi users use Te. At the first case that sudden realization from other guys point of view looks like it comes from Ti or Fi. Most likely since using only Fe isnt giving any new ideas, he takes look on it from Ti point of view, witch gives an objective point of view where Fe can feel from introverted point of view and therefore it is resembling Fi and working kind of like empathizing instead of sympathizing that he was doing before. This doesent mean that he understands/feels the person from his point of view, but he understands the person from objective point of view, instead when Fi user would understand other persons subjective point of view.
You know when you are thinking about something you are using multiple functions in the thought process, its not like you would only use one function at the time.

 

[Glycerine]

I use both A LOT. I feel for people but I detach from them when they are emotionally draining and we aren't close. Other times, I internalize people's emotions as my own but I still tend to detach if it's too much and can come off cold, uncaring, and very solution oriented. For me, it's about self-protection.

The funny thing about what the ENFPs were saying about pity is that on the other side, I hate when people think or assume that they know how I feel. That's what I don't like about empathy. Both sides of the coin feel icky to me sometimes. Pity (sympathy) and projection (empathy) can be quite irritating.

I have noticed that on some things I will sympathize with people and my mom (INFP) will empathize with the same people and vice versa. It really depends on the context, values, experiences, etc. It is not mainly function contingent.

 

[skylights]

Pity (sympathy) and projection (empathy) can be quite irritating.

so true.

projection is a classic counseling mistake - to say something like "i understand exactly how you feel, how difficult" instead of something like "i can imagine that'd be a really difficult situation."

Yes, empathy rips me apart in a way that can shake my core. It can drive me in an indescribably deep way to love and care for other people. But it also is something that allows me to withdraw without obligation. If I get out of bed for someone abruptly at 4 A.M. they better be fucking dying.

yup

 

[proteanmix]

There have been many threads about sympathy and empathy here and which Feeling function engages in which. This is my opinion on the matter.

NFP types claim they empathize more. NFJ types claim they do both. SFs and Thinkers are left out of the picture totally. Since empathy has the greater emotional and social value, it's usually a tug of war to claim who has more of it. In the end, it tends to turn into a Fe vs. Fi thing as people are already doing now.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

There have been many threads about sympathy and empathy here and which Feeling function engages in which. This is my opinion on the matter.

NFP types claim they empathize more. NFJ types claim they do both. SFs and Thinkers are left out of the picture totally. Since empathy has the greater emotional and social value, it's usually a tug of war to claim who has more of it. In the end, it tends to turn into a Fe vs. Fi thing as people are already doing now.

+1 Exactly.

 

[SilkRoad]

I've seen empathy described as "your pain in my heart", which I found quite touching and true.

 

[Moiety]

There have been many threads about sympathy and empathy here and which Feeling function engages in which. This is my opinion on the matter.

NFP types claim they empathize more. NFJ types claim they do both. SFs and Thinkers are left out of the picture totally. Since empathy has the greater emotional and social value, it's usually a tug of war to claim who has more of it. In the end, it tends to turn into a Fe vs. Fi thing as people are already doing now.

And Fi wins because it IS empathy.