Edward Snowden

[Salomé]

What he's interpreting is the future capability of the NSA. He says "getting to the point". The capabilities don't exist yet, though they're getting there.

Yet again you misunderstand him. It's quite clear that the capabilities already exist. What is yet to be built is the archive of "every decision you've ever made". Which, given existing capabilities and existing policies coupled with the passage of time is an inevitability.

His solution to this is a logical one: we change the only variable in this scenario that allows of change: policy. How do we do that in a democracy? By applying public pressure. How do we get the public to care? By informing them a bit, and, if that fails (as it's likely to, given that few people seem to be capable of drawing logical conclusions for themselves), scaring them a bit.

And glaringly missing is any substantial claim about institutional culture. He doesn't say the NSA has an agenda. Objective capabilities exist and no one's at the wheel? The complete case for going public is missing that element. An INTP would miss that? Would an INTJ?

Given that it seems important to you, yet unimportant to him, I think you just answered your own question.

Pfft, you gave it up a few posts back:

I was toying with you. However, I'm always open to new information.

And this procedure -- J wins only when P concedes -- is good for producing comprehensive analysis that you don't have to do yourself, but meanwhile something soemthing soemthing who cares.

You think there is something to win in this game?
Interesting.

Plus, seriously, you don't see me doing what he did?

Um...no. I see you tilting at windmills, mostly, and engaging in power games. Wasting your considerable intellect on trifles. Also building up your part a good deal more than is seemly.

I see him doing the opposite...

INTP.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yeah, it seems to me that when he talks he talks big, airy mechanism. In fact, his language includes a lot of accidental ambiguity--for eg. "when you talk to people about them, in a place like this where this is the normal state of business"--

Has anybody ever suspected that Snowden wanted to prepare his language in a manner that would be most appropriate for his audience? Or even that the way he talks is more of a result of his educational or a professional background than his temperament?

(Except perhaps that he's too plainly scared to be INTP, whatever that means.)

And of course, the fact that anyone in his position had good reasons to be scared is completely irrelevant! A true INTP just doesn't get scared, right?

 

[Kalach]

Yet again you misunderstand him. It's quite clear that the capabilities already exist. What is yet to be built is the archive of "every decision you've ever made". Which, given existing capabilities and existing policies coupled with the passage of time is an inevitability.

His solution to this is a logical one: we change the only variable in this scenario that allows of change: policy. How do we do that in a democracy? By applying public pressure. How do we get the public to care? By informing them a bit, and, if that fails (as it's likely to, given that few people seem to be capable of drawing logical conclusions for themselves), scaring them a bit.

That logic can be done with either T function. And by any type.

Given that it seems important to you, yet unimportant to him, I think you just answered your own question.

Truth be told, the tendency of INTPs to expect behavior policies as part of management practice codes is what lead me to that one. It's all that "policy" "they" need before making choices.

You think there is something to win in this game?
Interesting.

Yeah see, you don't want to to do that. INTPs positively insisting on the absence of value in the closing of a case doesn't bode well for calling Mr "We Need This To Be Fixed Now" Snowden one of yours.

Um...no. I see you tilting at windmills, mostly, and engaging in power games. Wasting your considerable intellect on trifles. Also building up your part a good deal more than is seemly.

Please. I'm pressing for conclusion, not power. Te, not Fe. It will certainly function as power, but it'll also be progressive. Moving things forward. Taking actions. Changing things. Being the superhero.

That Einstein dude? Invented the bomb and then wrung his hands a lot about it. He was right out in front of the scene but still wanted to be behind the scenes making suggestions about bomb policy.

I see him doing the opposite...

Now that is such bullshit. The nice humble dude with all the logics who is just making suggestions?


I tell you what. Did he have a messy desk? If he did, you can have him.

 

[Kalach]

Has anybody ever suspected that Snowden wanted to prepare his language in a manner that would be most appropriate for his audience? Or even that the way he talks is more of a result of his educational or a professional background than his temperament?

[...]

And of course, the fact that anyone in his position had good reasons to be scared is completely irrelevant! A true INTP just doesn't get scared, right?

Dude...

Okay so, style of speech is off the table, manner of presentation is off the table. Choice of subject matter and expression is off the table as well. If you were trying NOT to display INTP preferences with that post, you didn't succeed. "OH look ma, how lucky, we can't use what it looks like in passing to know what it is! Where did that accident come from, it fits so nicely with how I like to judge?"

Does he display any of that style either? I say no. Let's pretend that's just an opinion.

 

[Kalach]

Snowden, Part 2

 

[Kalach]

^ Edward "sort of" Snowden

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Dude...

Okay so, style of speech is off the table, manner of presentation is off the table. Choice of subject matter and expression is off the table as well. If you were trying NOT to display INTP preferences with that post, you didn't succeed. "OH look ma, how lucky, we can't use what it looks like in passing to know what it is! Where did that accident come from, it fits so nicely with how I like to judge?"

Does he display any of that style either? I say no. Let's pretend that's just an opinion.

Dude! You can't possibly be an NT type, you're too brash and simplistic in your expressions, you've got to be an STP, let's pretend that's just an opinion!

 

[Kalach]

Oh please. You raise a perfectly reasonable possibility that totally could exist in the world and it happens also to undermine immediate physical evidence and compel us to find proof only in what cannot be contingent, and you're not "being the NTP"?

 

[violet_crown]

Ed Snowden seems quixotic to me in the way of Inferior Fe. And just wook at that widdle face. :3

 

[Kalach]

Could you tell the difference between inferior Fe and some attempt to change the world that's just too airy and out of touch with current institutions to make any practice out of? (Which is to say, Te/Se that is neither dominant in expression nor immediately present as direct activity toward solution.)



Fine, fine, fine. Whatever. I'm just telling you all, sure, the comic books have those superheros, Dr Manhattan for example, and in the comics it's the INTJs that're the villians. But guess who writes comic books and guess what happens in real life. Are you guessing? Did you guess yet? You should guess. Because the INTPs made the bomb.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I tell you what. Did he have a messy desk? If he did, you can have him.

Oh snap, you're good! If he had a messy desk, he's an INTP, what a groundbreaking insight!

Oh please. You raise a perfectly reasonable possibility that totally could exist in the world and it happens also to undermine immediate physical evidence and compel us to find proof only in what cannot be contingent, and you're not "being the NTP"?

Huh?

 

[Salomé]

That logic can be done with either T function. And by any type.

Yeah, it's almost like arbitrary function orders are an irrelevance... Or even *gasp* like a person's 4-letter code isn't the most important thing about them...

But there are ample other clues to his type, if that's your kind of thing. I rely mostly on a gut feeling of being able to recognise one of my own kind. There is a certain ...resonance.
It's not just his history of disenchantment or the fact that he has worked in jobs mostly peopled by INTPs. It's that I found myself facing a similar moral dilemma pursuant to RIPA in the run up to the London Olympics.

Yeah see, you don't want to to do that. INTPs positively insisting on the absence of value in the closing of a case doesn't bode well for calling Mr "We Need This To Be Fixed Now" Snowden one of yours.

We have a sense of proportion. We choose our battles. Winning isn't everything. Can you say the same?

Please. I'm pressing for conclusion, not power. Te, not Fe. It will certainly function as power, but it'll also be progressive. Moving things forward. Taking actions. Changing things. Being the superhero.

Please. Thanks for yet again demonstrating those delusions of grandeur so at variance with Snowden's "average guy with no special skills" understatement.
Are you talking about your "Who Owns Your Posts?" thread? I'd say that was pretty conclusively fail. You really imagine you're in his league?
As is commonplace with INTJs you conflate the personal with the political.
Compare your thread with mine (on a related theme).

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ts/36414-do-you-care-about-death-privacy.html

And tell me which is more Snowden-esque.

I am concerned about civil liberty and personal privacy. You choose "ownership" as your campaign platform.

I present the information and ask people if it matters to them. Meet with anticipated apathy. And withdraw in disgust.

You wage a hate Haight campaign against foes of your own imagining. Present nothing but your own vague misgivings. Come across as a crackpot. And continue to bloody yourself well beyond the point of reason.
How many INTJs have we seen behave in this pattern on this forum now? Quite a handful...

They often choose a personal issue - someone's "unjust" banning, for example - to try to undermine authority. Then you have the rarer INTJs with the technical chops or privileged access to disregard the rules with impunity. Which they do. They make their own rules, and trample over the rights and privacy of others in the process.

INTJs are only happy when they're holding the reins. You're pissed that there is an INTJ running the show here, and it's not you. All your "the people, the people" protestations are a smokescreen. You think the people idiots. And what about that INTJ running the show, does he champion user-ownership like you do? Nope. Transparency? Nope. Democracy? Nope. The doc knows best.
An INTJ in Snowden's position would try to accrue more personal power or perhaps try to change the system from within. He wouldn't get himself stranded out in the desert with only the echoing voices in his head for company.

 

[Kalach]

@Moderators, I'd like to report a man who just cleaned his desk.

 

[Kalach]

Also, can we have this in the FAQ?: where INTPs claim to have your emotional investment number, they've run out of the other ideas. It's how they give us closure.

 

[Salomé]

Could you tell the difference between inferior Fe and some attempt to change the world that's just too airy and out of touch with current institutions to make any practice out of? (Which is to say, Te/Se that is neither dominant in expression nor immediately present as direct activity toward solution.)

He's not trying to change the world, he's trying to change his world. Je vs Ji. Spot the difference.

the INTPs made the bomb.

We made the bomb possible. Implementation we leave to lesser beings.
Split the difference.

 

[Salomé]

Hey Big Member, You wanted to make this all about you. Round about here:

Plus, seriously, you don't see me doing what he did?

Thus inviting, nay begging, for ridicule. Which I'm always happy to supply.

Now you're crying to the mods, those corrupt thought-thieves?
You didn't think that one through too well, huh?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yeah, it's almost like arbitrary function orders are an irrelevance... Or even *gasp* like a person's 4-letter code isn't the most important thing about them...

But there are ample other clues to his type, if that's your kind of thing. I rely mostly on a gut feeling of being able to recognise one of my own kind. There is a certain ...resonance.
It's not just his history of disenchantment or the fact that he has worked in jobs mostly peopled by INTPs. It's that I found myself facing a similar moral dilemma pursuant to RIPA in the run up to the London Olympics.

We have a sense of proportion. We choose our battles. Winning isn't everything. Can you say the same?

Please. Thanks for yet again demonstrating those delusions of grandeur so at variance with Snowden's "average guy with no special skills" understatement.
Are you talking about your "Who Owns Your Posts?" thread? I'd say that was pretty conclusively fail. You really imagine you're in his league?
As is commonplace with INTJs you conflate the personal with the political.
Compare your thread with mine (on a related theme).

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ts/36414-do-you-care-about-death-privacy.html

And tell me which is more Snowden-esque.

I am concerned about civil liberty and personal privacy. You choose "ownership" as your campaign platform.

I present the information and ask people if it matters to them. Meet with anticipated apathy. And withdraw in disgust.

You wage a hate Haight campaign against foes of your own imagining. Present nothing but your own vague misgivings. Come across as a crackpot. And continue to bloody yourself well beyond the point of reason.
How many INTJs have we seen behave in this pattern on this forum now? Quite a handful...

They often choose a personal issue - someone's "unjust" banning, for example - to try to undermine authority. Then you have the rarer INTJs with the technical chops or privileged access to disregard the rules with impunity. Which they do. They make their own rules, and trample over the rights and privacy of others in the process.

INTJs are only happy when they're holding the reins. You're pissed that there is an INTJ running the show here, and it's not you. All your "the people, the people" protestations are a smokescreen. You think the people idiots. And what about that INTJ running the show, does he champion user-ownership like you do? Nope. Transparency? Nope. Democracy? Nope. The doc knows best.
An INTJ in Snowden's position would try to accrue more personal power or perhaps try to change the system from within. He wouldn't get himself stranded out in the desert with only the echoing voices in his head for company.

My goodness, were his posts really deserving of all of the time and effort you've devoted into such a thorough reply?

By the way, Kalach, come visit me in my thread on typology, you'll be our most esteemed guest.

 

[violet_crown]

Could you tell the difference between inferior Fe and some attempt to change the world that's just too airy and out of touch with current institutions to make any practice out of? (Which is to say, Te/Se that is neither dominant in expression nor immediately present as direct activity toward solution.)

Prolly not. What I can tell you is that an regardless of its stacking, Te/Se keeps that shit real. An INTJ wouldn't have put his identity on blast without getting asylum first. Y'all are the sort of martyrs that make sure they have their book deals lined up first.

Snowden thought it through enough to know that absent foreign political backing he'd have to hide in plain sight to stay alive, but he planned no end game. It's just a belief on my part that NTJs think in terms of real world consequence always. Snowden's actions, while ingenious, smacked of a certain naivete. Like by doing the right thing, rolling himself in the flag, and throwing himself on the altar of our better angels he'd make it through. That's what I meant by initial comment. That for NTJs the possible is to some defree a function of the plausible (which is to say the practical), and you all are no exceptions.

Conversely, if we're not playing the game, if it really is some sorta personal jihad we're on about whatever, then we'll fall on the sword because Fi honor is cute like that.

 

[violet_crown]

We made the bomb possible. Implementation we leave to lesser beings.
Split the difference.

^^^^^See this??? This is what I'm talking about.

Also, would it be trite to say that Je wants to change the world and Ji wants to save it? Cause that pretty much sums up my thoughts on our boy Eddie.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I guess I just can't see an INTP acting this fast. My dad spent 8 months researching how to organize the bedroom closet for his xSFJ wife. And as far as my mockery can tell, it doesn't affect the outer world much.

Also, closet update time: research occurred in 2011-12. Closet still unfinished today, this day of all days, the Ides of August plus 6, in the year of our Lord, two thousand and thirteen.