Edward Snowden

[Thalassa]

An INTJ, though, would have brought the whole system crashing down some afternoon as Snowden did not, and would have been safely installed in some welcoming state by the time anyone knew any better. Then and only then would be time to tell all.

Exactly.

 

[Rasofy]

ISTJ - blends in and becomes part of the system, trying to believe that he's protecting his country.

ISTP - "OMG, that's so cool, I can get info from anyone I want. No way I'm gonna blow it"

INTJ - I like Coriolis' theory.


Deliberately typist post

 

[Coriolis]

Not entirely a realistic option in his case. And he'd have to be a genuine enemy of the US state to do it. On top of that, to travel in anonymity to some foreign state and gain sanctuary, he'd have to trade as a spy. The fanfare he created by going public in Hong Kong started more or less a bidding war in which he didn't have to reveal secrets to foreign powers for them to publicly accept him. In private he might be pressured to trade, but while he was still in Hong Kong, he was getting offers, not demands.

Not knowing the details of Snowden's workplace, I cannot guarantee what I suggest would have been possible. Something leading to a domino effect, with the full results not apparent for days would have been ideal. In any case, he would still have all the information he has now. Also, I suspect an INTJ would have made a point to plan around many of the travel difficulties Snowden has encountered since his revelations in Hong Kong, specifically the various extradition treaties in place, and revocation of his passport. Going to Hong Kong seems to have mainly symbolic value. Snowden took that first step, and now seems to be almost playing things by ear, hoping that it will all turn out. Very P.

 

[Kalach]

Not knowing the details of Snowden's workplace, I cannot guarantee what I suggest would have been possible. Something leading to a domino effect, with the full results not apparent for days would have been ideal. In any case, he would still have all the information he has now.

And he would also have committed treason, or something very near it. To directly cause some failure of national security infrastructure, or even just introduce an unauthorized change, would be a considerably more serious act than just revealing the existence of various classified surveillance programs and describing some of their nature.

Also, I suspect an INTJ would have made a point to plan around many of the travel difficulties Snowden has encountered since his revelations in Hong Kong, specifically the various extradition treaties in place, and revocation of his passport. Going to Hong Kong seems to have mainly symbolic value. Snowden took that first step, and now seems to be almost playing things by ear, hoping that it will all turn out. Very P.

If his stated reason for choosing Hong Kong was real, then the man is an idiot. But personally, I think he chose it because it offered a stage. The politics of Washington vs Beijing makes Hong Kong a relatively safe place for someone who goes way out in public like he did. Neither side could grab him without first settling with the other.

But then he got scared and he left too soon. Now instead of Beijing being there to balance Washington, he has only the idiots from wikileaks on his side. That's not playing it by ear. That's being lead out into the dark night by Julian Assange.

 

[Salomé]

Im sorry no Peter Pan is in no way an ISTJ or even ISTP.

I would go INTP or even INFP for him. I thought he might be narcissistic INTJ at first but no I don't think so.

Is there any other kind of INTJ?

I could see INFP before INTJ. The eyes have it though.

If the impatience is a product of a need for control, and that need is exaggerated by awareness that the outcome is in doubt...

I saw him first. INTJ.

Lol. Of course, you still think it's about a need for control. When it's actually about the opposite.

I can see an INTJ having a big problem with turnkey tyranny, and gaining that key just to be in a position to do something about it.

What's funny is that you're not even trying to be funny.

I agree with INTP, for most of the reasons you cite. I also see in Snowden a drive for the Truth, which often attends that type. He wants the truth to be known, and hopes that will be enough to bring about change, but knows it probably won't be.

It's a compulsion. But one can't neglect that other INTP compulsion either: blowing shit up and then sitting back and watching the fireworks.

You think Snowden is dumb for not getting all his ducks in a row, but it looks like considering consequences isn't the strength of the NSA period. Why else would their director publicly announce that they plan to fire 90% of their sysadmins? When disgruntled employees present the biggest security risk there is... And they just told the world their systems are going to be wide-open. Oh, look at all the pretty colours...

That whole article is a delight: "He told his audience to "get the facts" and make up their own minds, adding that the agency itself could do more to enable this: "We've got to push out more, I recognize that," he said."
This person is in charge of your nation's security. Be afraid.

 

[Kalach]

Lol. Of course, you still think it's about a need for control. When it's actually about the opposite.

Think? Pffft. Perceive. His appearance and manner in the videos resonates.

I find it wildly unlikely that an INTP would posture so. He has visible ideals, for goodness' sake. They look like pre-established conclusions. What INTP will set themselves up like that?


Still, my perceptions are subjective. I don't know what he is for realz.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I always find it amusing when people stick the flag of "Truth" onto one type as their hallmark... Like there is a type most likely to seek Lies, or that there *is* only One Truth that Rules Them All after finding them in the darkness to bind them.

Each type has it's own road to the city that is "Truth". Some roads just happen to be high speed trains and others are horse drawn carriages.

But I digress.

I think he's an INTJ for many reasons, and I don't see INTP at all. The kid's in his late 20's... just because he didn't destroy the world doesn't mean he isn't an INTJ. Contingency plans are all well and good so long as they are based in reality. This isn't some spy movie where he can pull high stakes espionage on a superpower like the US with only his MacGyver like superbrain and convenient plot holes. There is only so much maneuverability one can do when the entire world is watching you and you don't have billions of dollars and an army of sexy robot hookers at your disposal.

If this kid was an INTP I think he would have sat gathering evidence for another 10 years to make sure every I and T was properly attired. By that time he would emerge from his TiSi bunker to tell the world his discoveries, only to find that everyone knew about them 8 years ago.

I used to play strategy games with an INTJ friend of mine who wished to teach me the ways of the NiSe Force. My "gameplan" was initially very simple: be not disturbed while I went through each step in order to get to the final level so that I could then start building up my army. He would then send like 2 villagers and an axeman and destroy me within the first 5 minutes. Then he would explain to me how he had an idea of a plan on how he wanted to approach the game but that plans must change to meet the present conditions.

So who knows what Snowden's secondary and hundrethary plans were. Hong Kong was a bit of a confusing choice but I can see what Kalach is getting at with his theory on it. The end result is the same though: whatever motivated him to leave HK, it ended up being premature.

Perhaps the dreaded disease, Ni Tunnel Vision, did him in.

 

[Coriolis]

I always find it amusing when people stick the flag of "Truth" onto one type as their hallmark... Like there is a type most likely to seek Lies, or that there *is* only One Truth that Rules Them All after finding them in the darkness to bind them.

Each type has it's own road to the city that is "Truth". Some roads just happen to be high speed trains and others are horse drawn carriages.

Every type values friendship, adaptability, comfort, and many other things as well, but not with equal priority, and not in the same way. INTPs seem to value establishing objective truth for its own sake, more than other goals, and more than other types do. For INTJs this usually isn't enough. We want to DO something with that truth. We want to use it to make something happen, not just put it out there and hope for the best.

I think he's an INTJ for many reasons, and I don't see INTP at all. The kid's in his late 20's... just because he didn't destroy the world doesn't mean he isn't an INTJ. Contingency plans are all well and good so long as they are based in reality. This isn't some spy movie where he can pull high stakes espionage on a superpower like the US with only his MacGyver like superbrain and convenient plot holes. There is only so much maneuverability one can do when the entire world is watching you and you don't have billions of dollars and an army of sexy robot hookers at your disposal.

So who knows what Snowden's secondary and hundrethary plans were. Hong Kong was a bit of a confusing choice but I can see what Kalach is getting at with his theory on it. The end result is the same though: whatever motivated him to leave HK, it ended up being premature.

The highlighted is an important consideration. This story is still unfolding, so it remains to be seen just how much - or how little - advance planning he used. I might be willing to reconsider INTJ should more facts come out, but for now, I still see more INTP.

You think Snowden is dumb for not getting all his ducks in a row, but it looks like considering consequences isn't the strength of the NSA period. Why else would their director publicly announce that they plan to fire 90% of their sysadmins? When disgruntled employees present the biggest security risk there is... And they just told the world their systems are going to be wide-open. Oh, look at all the pretty colours...

That whole article is a delight: "He told his audience to "get the facts" and make up their own minds, adding that the agency itself could do more to enable this: "We've got to push out more, I recognize that," he said."
This person is in charge of your nation's security. Be afraid.

No, I don't think he is dumb, just disinclined to the kind of contingency planning most INTJs indulge in, but the jury is still out on that, as I mentioned above. And no, Snowden is not the NSA. They are the people now trying to have him hunted down. They are dumb for many reasons, including the sysadmin announcement. I don't know whether that is scary, or reassuring.

 

[Salomé]

And no, Snowden is not the NSA. They are the people now trying to have him hunted down.

No shit. Thanks for clearing that up. Good to see someone remembered to take her literal pills today.

They are dumb for many reasons, including the sysadmin announcement. I don't know whether that is scary, or reassuring.

Dumb is never reassuring.

I find it wildly unlikely that an INTP would posture so. He has visible ideals, for goodness' sake. They look like pre-established conclusions. What INTP will set themselves up like that?

Oh my goodness. He isn't posturing. He oozes sincerity. You can't even see perceive it. Too funny.

Are you for real? INTPs don't have ideals? INTPs inhabit a world of ideals. Naïve ones, frequently. They're the type perhaps least able to compromise them too. (INTJs will compromise because Te pushes them to concern themselves with what is possible or achievable in the real world of things, whereas INTPs don't allow themselves to be limited by those constraints.) Yes, it's an idealism that sometimes dissolves into nihilism, but even nihilism is an idealistic stance (of sorts).
Hello, Anonymous. Hello Open Source Community. Hello Jaron Lanier. Hello composer of the world's most successful anti-national anthem.

You might say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

Just ask the poster child of INTPness:

"The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives."

"Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it."

"I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace."

"What need is there for responsibility? I believe that the horrifying deterioration in the ethical conduct of people today stems from the mechanization and de-humanization of our lives, a disastrous byproduct of the development of the scientific and technical mentality. Nostra culpa. Man grows cold faster than the planet he inhabits."

 

[Kalach]

Are you for real? INTPs don't have ideals? INTPs inhabit a world of ideals. Naïve ones, frequently. They're the type perhaps least able to compromise them too. (INTJs will compromise because Te pushes them to concern themselves with what is possible or achievable in the real world of things, whereas INTPs don't allow themselves to be limited by those constraints.) Yes, it's an idealism that sometimes dissolves into nihilism, but even nihilism is an idealistic stance (of sorts).
Hello, Anonymous. Hello Open Source Community. Hello Jaron Lanier. Hello composer of the world's most successful anti-national anthem.

Pffft.

You might say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

Just ask the poster child of INTPness:

"The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives."

"Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it."

"I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace."

"What need is there for responsibility? I believe that the horrifying deterioration in the ethical conduct of people today stems from the mechanization and de-humanization of our lives, a disastrous byproduct of the development of the scientific and technical mentality. Nostra culpa. Man grows cold faster than the planet he inhabits."

"It becomes a thing of these people are against the country or against the government. But I'm not. I'm, I'm no different from anybody else, I don't have special skills, uh, I'm just another guy who sits there, day to day, in the office, watches what hap-what's happening and goes, this is not something that's our place to decide, the public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong."


The video is edited, but all he does is talk of hidden worldly mechanisms about which he has formed overview conclusions. Plainly, all he's done is taken a moral position, but he frames it as being of universal interest and validity. Pick an INTJ that doesn't communicate this way every time they open their mouths. The easy accusations of paranoia that come to INTJs all the time? They're a product of this kind of presentation. So the style he appears to display resonates for me. And INTPs do this stuff too? I guess so.


"The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing'll change."

 

[Coriolis]

Dumb is never reassuring.

When someone is doing something you think is wrong, would you prefer they be intelligent and clever about it, thereby getting it accomplished and keeping it a secret to boot? Or would you prefer they be dumb, clumsy, and inept enough to make little headway, or at least to get exposed for what they are? NSA may not be dumb enough to do the former, but as we see, they have done the latter. Now are the rest of us going to be dumb enough to tolerate it?

 

[Salomé]

When someone is doing something you think is wrong, would you prefer they be intelligent and clever about it, thereby getting it accomplished and keeping it a secret to boot? Or would you prefer they be dumb, clumsy, and inept enough to make little headway, or at least to get exposed for what they are? NSA may not be dumb enough to do the former, but as we see, they have done the latter. Now are the rest of us going to be dumb enough to tolerate it?

Looks like it...

You present a false dichotomy. What you really have is the worst features of both: people dumb enough to make headway.

Personally, I prefer it when my security service is...secure. But I'm eccentric like that.

"It becomes a thing of these people are against the country or against the government. But I'm not. I'm, I'm no different from anybody else, I don't have special skills, uh, I'm just another guy who sits there, day to day, in the office, watches what hap-what's happening and goes, this is not something that's our place to decide, the public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong."

The video is edited, but all he does is talk of hidden worldly mechanisms about which he has formed overview conclusions. Plainly, all he's done is taken a moral position, but he frames it as being of universal interest and validity.

If it were not of universal interest, we wouldn't be sitting here, talking about him. He isn't a crank, he's a whistle-blower. There's a difference.

Pick an INTJ that doesn't communicate this way every time they open their mouths.

I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.
In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier. INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.

The easy accusations of paranoia that come to INTJs all the time? They're a product of this kind of presentation. So the style he appears to display resonates for me.

He's not paranoid though. You are.
Sorry, you can't have him just to up the sexiness quotient of the TJs. He's mine.

"The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing'll change."

 

[Coriolis]

You present a false dichotomy. What you really have is the worst features of both: people dumb enough to make headway.

Personally, I prefer it when my security service is...secure. But I'm eccentric like that.

I'm presenting opposite ends of a spectrum. Security is all well and good, but as Ben Franklin pointed out years ago, in a democracy it cannot come at the cost of liberty. If our security establishment is going to be overstepping in this regard, I prefer it have enough imperfections that we get to learn what is going on.

I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.

In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier. INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.

I'm sure I'm not the only INTJ to downplay my skill set. It can be useful to be underestimated at times. Yes, I can see INTJs thinking that the turnkey is not only safest but put to best effect in our hands. An INTJ who is disillusioned with the system, however, and thinks it is headed in quite the wrong direction is just as likely to gain possession of the turnkey to force a major change or cripple the system. That was not done in this case. Not proof positive that Snowden is not INTJ, but I've already stated I agree with INTP for him, as it fits more of the evidence to date.

 

[Kalach]

If it were not of universal interest, we wouldn't be sitting here, talking about him. He isn't a crank, he's a whistle-blower. There's a difference.

This too is why you can't have him. He doesn't appear to run everything through the "objectively" filter. The only content he offers up as "objective" is his descriptions of how the NSA operates. The rest he claims to leave up to "the public", and he doesn't offer any obvious claim about what they must decide. *He* says *he* thinks abuses exist.

I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.

It's a vital technique for demonstrating that crazy visions are real. Unless you're aiming to exclude others from control of facilities or operations, then proving you're right by claiming superior competence or intelligence is teh fail. Mystery insight has to be tagged "normal" in some way.

In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier.

Probably. I don't know much about him, but Keith Alexander seems like one of our operatives too.

INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.

Ha.

If INTJs tended to personally align themselves with their organizations, then yes.

 

[ScottJames]

INT is obvious to me. My first impression was INTJ and I still think that's most likely. I haven't seen enough to rule out INTP though.

 

[Salomé]

This too is why you can't have him. He doesn't appear to run everything through the "objectively" filter. The only content he offers up as "objective" is his descriptions of how the NSA operates. The rest he claims to leave up to "the public", and he doesn't offer any obvious claim about what they must decide. *He* says *he* thinks abuses exist.

Oh look: you even provided the reason why:

Unless you're aiming to exclude others from control of facilities or operations, then proving you're right by claiming superior competence or intelligence is teh fail.

It's a vital technique for demonstrating that crazy visions are real.

Again, no "crazy visions" required. He has evidence. There is no mystery. Not anymore, at least.
And I didn't say I didn't understand the technique, I said I haven't see an INTJ use it: it requires the capacity to suppress one's ego.

Probably. I don't know much about him, but Keith Alexander seems like one of our operatives too.

I'll let you have that one.

 

[Cellmold]

Could you send me that by mobile phone text?

As for Ed. I'm on INTP for this one.

 

[Kalach]

Oh look: you even provided the reason why:

Again, no "crazy visions" required. He has evidence. There is no mystery. Not anymore, at least.

Evidence that he says calls for interpretation. The public is supposed to decide something. I haven't heard or read everything he's said, but does he ever talk about principles being violated?

I still don't see where anyone's getting INTP. They might as well be getting DERP for all the connection they've made between what he has been seen to do and the common behavior of a type. *I* say, he talks of hidden mechanisms, he requires other people make some moral determination about those mechanisms, and he has an opinion already that he thinks mandated pushing the moral question out to everyone else. *And* he appears to know a lot of other things. That wealth of hidden background would ordinarily appear as ponderous conspiracy theory, but here apparently it's okay because NSA.

He looks like he's doing what every INTJ does. That the hidden conspiracy is real at least as far as mechanism goes, and is also compelling for *some* people, is what lets him, this time, not be the Unabomber. Frankly, what traits not merely tangentially related to the INTP type does he display at all?

 

[Salomé]

*I* say, he talks of hidden mechanisms, he requires other people make some moral determination about those mechanisms, and he has an opinion already that he thinks mandated pushing the moral question out to everyone else. *And* he appears to know a lot of other things. That wealth of hidden background would ordinarily appear as ponderous conspiracy theory, but here apparently it's okay because NSA.

Again: it's an exposé, not a conspiracy theory. He isn't hiding anything; he's leaking it. He isn't blowing up his part and lecturing with the grandiose pomposity of the average INTJ, he's just stating the facts. Obviously, he has an opinion, he's just not arrogant enough to believe it's the only one that counts.

The public is supposed to decide something. I haven't heard or read everything he's said, but does he ever talk about principles being violated?

"I don't want to live in a society that does these sorts of things"

It's common for INTPs to be more certain about what they don't want/ aren't prepared to tolerate, than what they do. He knows that he doesn't want to live in a society full of hypocrites and slaves, but he doesn't necessarily have an overarching vision for some sublime Utopia either. Or put another way, he defines Utopia by what it doesn't contain, rather that what it does.
The INTJ stipulates the world he wants to live in; the INTP the world he does not.

Ni supplies a singular "perfect" vision, and Te the means to accomplish it. There is a narrowness of focus and rigidity of purpose.
Ne supplies endless possible states and Ti tests and eliminates those that won't work because they violate some core principle or are inconsistent in some other way. Negative capability:-
" the ability to tolerate the pain and confusion of not knowing, rather than imposing ready-made or omnipotent certainties upon an ambiguous situation "
Snowden has this in spades. It informs his political ideals as well as his personal life choices. It's anti-J. (Or P, more concisely. )

He recognises that the NSA's method of snooping is both "the most efficient" and an "abuse". Isn't that like, an oxymoron for an INTJ? Je is all about ends justifying means.

Snowden doesn't trust authority - not even his own. The fact that he was authorised to spy on the President on the flimsiest of pretexts, frightened him. Whoever said "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" - I'm thinking it wasn't an NTJ.

"No one can meaningfully oppose them. But at the same time you have to make a determination about what's important to you."

"You could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon, but that's not my intention."

"If you can live unfreely [sic], but comfortably (and I think many people can - it's human nature)..."

"But if you realise that that's the world you helped create, and it's only going to get worse with the next generation's capability to extend this Architecture of Oppression....then you realise you're prepared to accept any risk, and it doesn't matter what the outcome is, so long as the public gets to makes its own decision."

Could he be less INTJ?

The INTP is as reluctant to impose his will on others as he is to have others impose their will on him. Both attitudes inform Snowden's actions. He can simultaneously believe/fear that his actions will have no lasting legacy, yet still be convinced it's the right thing to do: ends are largely irrelevant.

He doesn't press his vision upon the world, because he recognises that his is only one perspective (Pe) all the while being convinced of its subjective rightness (Ji). He distinguishes between moral absolutes and technical facts. He collects and presents those facts and allows others to draw their own conclusions without trying to get in the way of that process any more than is necessary (also known as Informative vs Directive). His own conclusions coupled with his disposition create a moral imperative which has dictated the course of the rest of his life, but he doesn't actively intervene to destroy the system he despises (as you suggest an INTJ would). He does however, subvert it. He allows a more informed public to decide their own fate, while his lack of faith in human nature guarantees his retreat, rather than than trust his own fate to others.

Come now. You know it makes sense. You're infatuated with an INTP. It happens.
We are kind of wonderful.

 

[Rasofy]

That was beautiful.