DRAMA

[mgbradsh]

My views: for every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.
People think that just because justice is not immediately administrated the memory, the pain and anger is going to go away and dissipate into the nothingness, but it always comes back at some point, in some form. The more it's suppressed, the greater is the damage it causes eventually because of the build-up. I think it's best if everybody gets what they deserve asap for the sake of the balance. Take slavery, or lynching, for example. Anyone still holding the illusion that this file is closed?

What was the reason for the nationalistic moods in Germany leading to the rise of the Nazi? What is the reason for Russian antagonism? People tend to forget that there will always be consequences.

There are theories that justice (and the show of it) can provide a degree of catharsis to a society as a whole.

If we bring the issue back down from nations to something like capital punishment, it might help. It costs a lot of money to put someone to death within the current justice system, more I believe than to keep them alive, but the argument (and perhaps yours) is that there is a greater benefit to society to have them executed, in spite of that cost, than there is in keeping them alive.

I think some of the ceremony we see around executions is in support of making a public and dramatic display of what’s happening for everyone to see.

I guess my question would be, is that good or bad? And is that the ideal outcome we should all hope for?

 

[Cellmold]

It's just harder to look at yourself than others.

I'm no exception.

 

[Lib]

There are theories that justice (and the show of it) can provide a degree of catharsis to a society as a whole.

If we bring the issue back down from nations to something like capital punishment, it might help. It costs a lot of money to put someone to death within the current justice system, more I believe than to keep them alive, but the argument (and perhaps yours) is that there is a greater benefit to society to have them executed, in spite of that cost, than there is in keeping them alive.

I think some of the ceremony we see around executions is in support of making a public and dramatic display of what’s happening for everyone to see.

I guess my question would be, is that good or bad? And is that the ideal outcome we should all hope for?

I'm against capital punishment because there is a chance that innocent people get it. And justice should protect first and foremost innocent people. But if I know that the person is guilty of doing something horrible like killing or torturing, nothing would stop me to kill them myself, harm or turn them into slaves. Redemption is a gift that no one wants but everybody needs.

Consequences are not good or bad, they just are. You do something harmful and unjust to others and it influences their behavior. You do something nice and just and this also influences their behavior. But someone has to pay for the blood and broken lives. That's how our world works - energy is neither created nor lost. The ideal outcome of any punishment is to break the circle of injustice, restore trust. And that normally includes a ritual distancing from the old.

 

[Coriolis]

I think there are better ways.

Address the underlying causes that supported the rise to power in the first place. I’m not sure you can kill your way to peace.

The question was how to get rid of a dictatorship.

 

[mgbradsh]

The question was how to get rid of a dictatorship.

I don’t think I specifically asked that question, but let’s.

And how about we Choose Your Own Adventure some answers? For this I can be the dictator. I’ve been recently “elected” into office by more votes than there are voters. I’m pretty happy with myself and flattered that the people chose me in such an overwhelming fashion. This has obviously gone to my head and I’m into day 45 of costly celebrations. I surround myself with only my closest allies and the soldiers tasked with taking care of my have all been vetted through to their distant cousins, are very well paid, and they aren’t overworked.

You are a high level government administrator. You have access to me, but not much. You aren’t extremely well paid, but your family isn’t starving. Your parents were killed by police in riots several months ago so you’re pretty grief stricken. You are extremely angry at the state of your country and my celebrations have pushed you to the edge. You’ve quietly been speaking with a small tightly knit group of close friends and family about the need for change. Everyone in your group is ready for action.

Page 1

You have an upcoming meeting with El Presidente (that’s me!) to discuss homelessness. His motorcade recently drove past a group of people with signs begging for food. He was disgusted. One of them almost touched the car so he’s having it repainted. He’s come up with a plan to eliminate homelessness by eliminating the homeless, just rounding them up and “moving” them to an underground location deep in the jungle. You’ve been tasked with coming up with developing a strategy to execute the plan.

Your group was very excited to hear this news. One of them has a tiny handgun that won’t be detected until you’re in your meeting. You have a fool proof escape plan and your friends will be able to hide you and your family for years if needed.

It’s meeting time. You’re in the room and I’m describing in detail the face of the disgusting swine that almost touched my car. Most of his teeth were missing, it was pretty horrific.

Do you;

Pull out your gun and shoot me (go to page 8)
Chicken out (go to page 23)



Page 8

You run through your escape plan in your mind. Just seething with anger you pull out your gun and get a shot off right in my chest. Your run to the door as per your plan. My guards gun you down. I mean, c’mon, you’re a government administrator and these are highly trained soldiers, you never had a chance of getting out of there alive. Within three hours your family and friends are all dead too.

I don’t make it through the night. A military general moves in to fill the power vacuum and things get a lot worse for the country.

The end.


Page 15

The bomb making party is a lot more fun than you thought it would be. Your cousin just hates the president. Turns out that homeless guy was his uncle and he was looking for some odd jobs to do after his store was looted during a riot. He was eager to help and was able to get the bomb installed and even wired to explode when the president went into his previous mini bar. How perfect is that?

I died obviously. Who doesn’t want a drink when being forced to drive past the unwashed mssses. If only they’d take the time to appreciate how good they have it.

You don’t survive either. One of the other people in the room that day, the one that stuffed all the ballot boxes wins the next election. He’s mean and doesn’t like celebrations. He does like killing though. The jungle plan was actually his and you and your family are the first ones there for waiting until the election was over to start doing it.

The end.


Page 23

A gun? What were you and your friends thinking? You’ll never make it out of the room alive. There has to be a better way. While I’m talking extensively about my car, more specifically the mini bar in the back seat, you remember that your third cousin is a mechanic for the government and one of your group does have bomb making capability. Just then I say something that grabs your attention and makes you realize there may be an opportunity to help the homeless people.

Do you

Tell your group about your bomb plot (go to page 15)
Tell me your plan to help the homeless (go to page 61)


Page 61

How could this be? The president just opened the door a crack to helping people get off the streets. He wants to build a dam, to create a lake in the mountains. It’s pretty treacherous terrain, but I’ve always wanted a lakeside cottage with a dock and a fishing boat, I think we can make that happen.

You suggest using the homeless people on a volunteer basis (as opposed to slave labour like I suggested) and creating a small town nearby to support the project and give the workers a place to live. You also suggest that while the dam will primarily be used to create a lake for my cottage, it may also have the benefit of creating electricity to power our cities and will create jobs and bolster the economy. It could be the first of many programs that restore our country as regional powerhouse.

Go to page 40.


Page 40

A year later.

The project is nowhere near completion. It’s a massive undertaking and it’s going really well, but a one year deadline was impossible to meet. Unfortunately, I expected it to be done in a year and it’s not, sonyou and your family will have to be made an example of.

The good news is that we have several other projects on the go and there are very few homeless people left on the streets. Enough to round up without much of a fuss at least. Our country seems to be getting back on track.

The end.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I actually like drama to some reasonable degree. since drama is intimate and I really miss that in my life. Since I have too much armor and people are likely to skip having this with me. The drama of love, the drama of siblings/cousins, the drama of prom, the drama of having pets .... it all passed next to me.

 

[mgbradsh]

I actually like drama to some reasonable degree. since drama is intimate and I really miss that in my life. Since I have too much armor and people are likely to skip having this with me. The drama of love, the drama of siblings/cousins, the drama of prom, the drama of having pets .... it all passed next to me.

Thanks, I appreciate your take on that. Kind of makes me wonder if drama/conflict is inherently bad. Perhaps there is some good to be found.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thanks, I appreciate your take on that. Kind of makes me wonder if drama/conflict is inherently bad. Perhaps there is some good to be found.

Well, that is simplistic thinking on other peoples part. Actually some limited amount of interpersonal drama makes us all human even if people generally skip this conclusion. Here is the stereotype of what you get when you really lower drama.

135
The Technical Expert


Interest:
– want success
– acquiring knowledge
– being perfect


Mission:
– being focused + using powers of observation to achieve goals


Character:
– tenacious
– persistent
– driven
– self disciplined
– image oriented
– appropriate
– discerning
– self demanding
– judgmental
– wants control
– productive
– hard working
– intelligent
– focused
– critical
– obstinate
– efficient
– wise
– rational
– detail oriented
– precise
– pragmatic
– tenacious
– analytical
– ambitious
– elitist
– cold
– self assured
– well-mannered
– introverted
– objective
– impatient
– self-righteous
– tactful to some extent
– organised



Blind spot:
– overly focused on rules -> lose touch with own values and feelings
– becoming too robotic
– becoming narrow minded
– not focusing on emotions at all

When I acted fully like this there were RL people that truly talked to me as if I some really scary person. So despite what people say they all like a little bit of drama, however when they enjoy it then they invent some other term for this. As a test try to act like this for a few days and see how people will react, if you think you can pull it off. Trust me obvious majority around will feel uncomfortable on various ways.


As my father said recently: OK, Ok just don't be so serious, you make me feel as something terrible is going to happen.

 

[Lib]

When I acted fully like this there were RL people that truly talked to me as if I some really scary person. So despite what people say they all like a little bit of drama, however when they enjoy it then they invent some other term for this.

Do you think that discussing ideas is the same as discussing people?

 

[Norexan]

I guess people that I know personally or that I work with. I’ve noticed at times people that don’t want to get involved might get dragged into it. I think it’s part of the human experience, almost without fail, to get involved in interpersonal conflict at some point in their lives, whether they want to or not.

Good point.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Do you think that discussing ideas is the same as discussing people?

Depends. However what I said I find more true than false.
People in general obviously are trying to cheer me up and I think this is because of poker face and the rest of the mix. I am from pretty "expressive culture".

 

[Norexan]

Manipulator: The one who cause conflict(drama) and then accuse victim that he/she caused.

CLASSIC HUMAN TRASH
Manipulator -------ATTACK------------> Victim
Manipulator <---------ATTACK --------- Victim
Manipulator ---------- ACCUSE -------> Victim

ADVANCED HUMAN TRASH

Manipulator ---------- ATTACK ---------> Innocent
Manipulator -------- SET -------> Innocent Attack Victim
Innocent ----- ATTACK -----> Victim
Manipulator <---------------ATTACK ---- Victim
Manipulator BECOME THE Innocent.
Manipulator + Innocent ----> Victim

 

[Lib]

Manipulator -------- SET -------> Innocent Attack Victim
Innocent ----- ATTACK -----> Victim

But, of course, let's absolve the innocent from all guilt. They are just someone's puppets.

 

[Norexan]

But, of course, let's absolve the innocent from all guilt. They are just someone's puppets.

Soldiers are not guilt for Manipulator's plans. They are victims of manipulations too.

 

[Lib]

Solders is not guilt for Generals. Otherwise we can accuse all people in war that they are guilt.

Just because someone told you to do something and you did it despite of the knowledge that it's wrong, doesn't absolve you from any of the guilt. Any veteran knows that.

 

[mgbradsh]

Do you think that discussing ideas is the same as discussing people?

Probably not. At least not in this case. I think our experiences probably seed most, if not all of our theories, in spite of our best attempts to make the situations seem as abstract as possible.

I would say that I started this thread out of something I’ve been watching for the last year in my work life. As I got to thinking about it I noticed a recurring pattern through many interactions I’ve had over the years and wondered if others had experienced the same thing.

 

[Norexan]

Just because someone told you to do something and you did it despite of the knowledge that it's wrong, doesn't absolve you from any of the guilt. Any veteran knows that.

Manipulators use emotional manipulations using themselves as victims and therefore every rightful men stand to protect them instead attack them! That is their goal! To get hearths of rightful men for his responsibilities!

In war everything is simple you must simple do as you are told to do without question. And if some goes wrong leaders are the one who took prize of guilt not followers. Same is in economics but not that simple. But this rule is same for both side. Directors are the ones who is guilt for bad decisions , not his workers! He/She stand for them!

 

[Coriolis]

I don’t think I specifically asked that question, but let’s.

You didn't. [MENTION=35676]Lib[/MENTION] did, and I was replying directly to her.

And how about we Choose Your Own Adventure some answers?

Since none of your literary experiment meets my definition of armed rebellion, and it touches on only one or two rather flimsy examples of a coup, I will not address it.

Thanks, I appreciate your take on that. Kind of makes me wonder if drama/conflict is inherently bad. Perhaps there is some good to be found.

In art (e.g. theater, opera) it can be positive. In real life, it usually just clouds the issue and acts as a distraction and a drain on time, energy, and attention.

There are theories that justice (and the show of it) can provide a degree of catharsis to a society as a whole.

If we bring the issue back down from nations to something like capital punishment, it might help. It costs a lot of money to put someone to death within the current justice system, more I believe than to keep them alive, but the argument (and perhaps yours) is that there is a greater benefit to society to have them executed, in spite of that cost, than there is in keeping them alive.

I think some of the ceremony we see around executions is in support of making a public and dramatic display of what’s happening for everyone to see.

I guess my question would be, is that good or bad? And is that the ideal outcome we should all hope for?

Catharsis? Ceremony? That all misses the point, and too often panders to our baser instincts. Our treatment of criminals should focus on preventing the commission of further crimes. That is the measure of its effectiveness.

Well, that is simplistic thinking on other peoples part. Actually some limited amount of interpersonal drama makes us all human even if people generally skip this conclusion. Here is the stereotype of what you get when you really lower drama.


When I acted fully like this there were RL people that truly talked to me as if I some really scary person. So despite what people say they all like a little bit of drama, however when they enjoy it then they invent some other term for this. As a test try to act like this for a few days and see how people will react, if you think you can pull it off. Trust me obvious majority around will feel uncomfortable on various ways.

I don't see the problem here.

 

[mgbradsh]

Catharsis? Ceremony? That all misses the point, and too often panders to our baser instincts. Our treatment of criminals should focus on preventing the commission of further crimes. That is the measure of its effectiveness.
.

I think that can be A measure of its effectiveness. It doesn’t necessarily have to be THE measure of its effectiveness.

I might argue that the primary function of any justice system is less about punishment and rehabilitation and more about assuring the population that crime is something that we are able to manage in very sophisticated ways. That gives the average member of society confidence that they live in a stable law abiding world (not too law abiding, but law abiding enough) and they should be free to be productive members of society.

The treatment of prisoners in many jurisdictions underscores that point.

I think that drama/conflict exist and are so much a part of the human experience goes to show how heavily we rely on those “baser instincts.”

 

[Lib]

Probably not. At least not in this case. I think our experiences probably seed most, if not all of our theories, in spite of our best attempts to make the situations seem as abstract as possible.

I would say that I started this thread out of something I’ve been watching for the last year in my work life. As I got to thinking about it I noticed a recurring pattern through many interactions I’ve had over the years and wondered if others had experienced the same thing.

Well, at least when one discusses ideas, they don't turn it into an interpersonal conflict. I like to compete, for example, but when I do that I avoid to gossip, group against or stab my opponent in the back.

Depending on the cultural setting, I've experienced this as well. Thankfully, I haven't observed it in my usual circles where people are concerned mainly with technical stuff, but I was working temporarily in a strictly business environment and it was a disaster - gossip and politicking was the food of these people. It goes without saying that interpersonal drama was everywhere.

Manipulators use emotional manipulations using themselves as victims and therefore every rightful men stand to protect them instead attack them! That is their goal! To get hearths of rightful men for his responsibilities!

In war everything is simple you must simple do as you are told to do without question. And if some goes wrong leaders are the one who took prize of guilt not followers. Same is in economics but not that simple. But this rule is same for both side. Directors are the ones who is guilt for bad decisions , not his workers! He/She stand for them!

That's nonsense. A rightful person would not allow themselves to be emotionally manipulated. We all have heads on our shoulders. What you describe is a puppet.

I will repeat myself - nothing absolves you from guilt when acting on free will. That's the natural order. Why do you think Germans have been feeling so guilty after the WWII? Because they were also there, participating, they let it happen.