[NT] Defining Moments in the making of an NT.

[FemMecha]

I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.

If a person is paying attention to authenticity, then hopefully they'd get the whole picture including the truth of an INTJs motivation. There were often times i was impressed by such people when their honesty was apparent. If they looked like someone who could challenge my mind, then there was even a potential smidge of... It is true that i sometimes felt sorry for teachers who were confused, but i also felt disappointed not being challenged. Once the answer was clear in my mind, i'd move on to observing the interactions and the method by which the teacher arrived at the answer. I started analyzing the social/psychological aspects of what was going on. That's partly why i hesitated to interrupt the natural process, it was more interesting to observe. Time to put on the anthropologist hat.

For my background, there were added layers of gender and socio-economic expectations. Being a sweet, skinny, poor girl caused people to often reject my intelligence. It was like rolling a boulder uphill, so i gave up. I've put my thumbprint on the world, proved it quietly and throughout the course of my life, the path of least resistance for me. I admire people who can push the boulder uphill, since i can't.

 

[Totenkindly]

The two things that drove me through school were:
(1) being perceived as the smartest.
(2) being perceived as the "good kid" and not having people dislike me.

I did not actively toot my own horn, but I did take advantage of any situation I could to reaffirm to myself and others that I was very smart and knowledgeable.

I feel badly now when I think back to one of my high school science teachers. I think now he was an NF type (mostly because of all the crap he was willing to absorb in pursuit of teaching the kids).

On one hand, I liked him very much because he always seemed eager to explore something. (One time, I brought in a MacDonald's Happy meal toy -- a little car you could pull back on the ground, then let go and it would zip and zoom all over the place; and he and I and a friend spent the WHOLE CLASS period during lab taking this thing apart and figuring out how and why it worked. The rest of the class was screwing around.)

And this latter reason was one reason I disliked him. Because he refused to be in charge of the class. Everyone took advantage of him, even blatantly to his face; and he took it like a dog getting kicked and refusing to do anything back to defend itself; and it made him seem incompetent and weak to me.

To me, this made no sense, and I remember feeling guilty for the disdain I felt for him. Still, it did not stop me from defending my role as the "smart student" -- and because everyone was cheating and suddenly getting better grades than I was (they would get 100's, and I would study and get 92-94's), I was very upset at the unfairness of it. So I cheated once too... and got caught by him (it was someone else's fault I got caught) and then punished.

But he didn't punish anyone else, even though it was clear they were all cheating based on how their grades were suddenly so good.

I was very hard on myself for being so "vile" for cheating in the first place and trying to take advantage of him; and part of me felt it was logically justified, because he was not being fair in the classroom. It was a nice little tug of war.

I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.

I always loved correcting my instructors when I could... but I would take great pains to do it in an "acceptable" way, not being TOTALLY rude about it. If the context gave me the opportunity to comment, I would; but I would not override the context just to correct someone.

 

[Mycroft]

I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs

I've been meaning to post something in regard to this for quite some time now. I have never, in my life, even with my friends, been at all interested in "demonstrating my competence", or pursuing arguments. Even when I knew I was right and the other person was, as my aunt always so delicately put it, talking out of their ass. I simply filed it away; "Oh, person X is the kind of human being who, despite/because of being [insert relevant qualifier] kind of human being, believes [insert belief]. I will keep that in mind for the time when my plans should require such a person."

 

[Economica]

I've been meaning to post something in regard to this for quite some time now. I have never, in my life, even with my friends, been at all interested in "demonstrating my competence", or pursuing arguments. Even when I knew I was right and the other person was, as my aunt always so delicately put it, talking out of their ass.

You're never argumentative even in the company of people you respect? That would make you different from every INTJ I have ever known. ...Are you quite sure said people would agree to this characterization?

 

[Mycroft]

You're never argumentative even in the company of people you respect? That would make you different from every INTJ I have ever known. ...Are you quite sure said people would agree to this characterization?

The people I respect are my bishops as opposed to my pawns. Why would I risk alienating them?

 

[Economica]

The people I respect are my bishops as opposed to my pawns. Why would I risk alienating them?

How is pursuing arguments going to alienate people who are worthy of respect?

 

[Totenkindly]

Thanks for being part of the forums, Mycroft. Your posts are always a joy to read. (They make me laugh in all the good ways.)

 

[Mycroft]

Thanks for being part of the forums, Mycroft. Your posts are always a joy to read. (They make me laugh in all the good ways.)

 

[ptgatsby]

I am reminded of Keirsey's claim that demonstrating competence is key for NTs whereas NFs pursue authenticity. I'm sure the more gratuitous of my corrections must have elicited cringing from my NF classmates who probably caught the same error but couldn't care less about getting credit for it.

That'd make me an INFP, I guess. I never felt the need to demontrate competence as much as the need to be myself, or be true to principles. I was an underachiever in school, never cared about much beyond my individualism... I do have some things I show off... but most of it is done to understand. When competing, I'm competing against myself.

The major exception is when it comes to truth. Unlike the NT stories about correcting people, I only fight when it comes to contradictions - if someone says something that is inherently untrue (self defeating), I am overcome with the impulse to point it out.

And I show off in concentrated efforts, like cooking and such. Those things are competitive and combines showing off and the need to create/be all artistic.

 

[ladypinkington]

Wow, the things being shared and discussed here are very very interesting.
I love how there are so many different characters in this forum!
It is interesting how things have shifted to behavior and relating to teachers in school. I don't know if this is an INFJ thing or not- but my grades and attitudes towards my teachers was very reactive and dependent on whether or not they showed a liking to me and or treated me.

I was always very eager to establish a connection with my teachers- and if a teacher did not respond and was cold to me then I would feel no loyalty to them and would not be afraid to be a smart@$$ in class and correct them. My grades would not matter to me if I felt I didn't matter to my teacher-bad relations with teacher= bad grades.

If a teacher was loving to me and kind - then I would be a straight A student
and would defend their honor so to speak,lol. I would not be a smart@$$ and would be as respectful to them as possible. If someone would correct them then I would just add politely- She/He is just human and we all make mistakes.

My emotions and relationships with people would completely dictate my ambitions and performance. Not something I am proud of and is something I have been working very hard on controlling. BTW- when I took the MBTI test-I was almost completely all feeling,lol!

I was and have always been a glory hound and very competitive though,lol, so if there was ever a contest or if I made one in my mind-I was focused no matter what. In kindergarten- my teacher actually had to talk to my mother about how I was intimidating all the other students because I was so competitive. I would trash talk even then,lol.

I remember making butterflies in art class at 6 years old and I have always had a pet peeve of proper color coordination even then-and telling the other fellow students who did not have a concept of color coordination at all that because of this my butterfly is better than yours-your colors are clashing! LOL,lol. I also did the annoying Martin Prince thing and wave my hand to answer the question as if I would die unless called on-with the attitude- oh please pick me, I'm ever so smart!

 

[Blackwater]

the signs were there all along i think but i actually never really noticed it untill I read please understand me. makes sense, actually, as the NT-temperament is a keirsey construct and a far shakier one than classic MBTI at that.

 

[JAVO]

In kindergarten, the teacher had laminated characters for each letter of the alphabet. Each day, she went around the room, making them do a silly dance to a silly song, and made each of us make something up about the characters. I don't remember what I said, but the entire class laughed at me (or what I said? ), and the teacher had a bewildered and amazed look on her face. Soon, my parents began talking about me in terms of "looking at things differently" and "having a big imagination."

In first grade, I drew our new and improved family car. The outside world was a scary place (major introvert then), so I equipped it with a periscope so that we could see out without being seen. Not shown on the drawing, but carefully pointed out by me, was a propeller and waterproofing which made the car fully submersible. I could never figure out why other kids wasted time by drawing people in their cars.

 

[digesthisickness]

hmm. defining moments. that would be the ones where i noticed i was different? that would be when i was first exposed to other children. so, around kindergarten (age 4). the things i remember that i did around that time and others around me didn't:

-made a pet out of a fly by hobbling it (figured the end justified the means as he'd get a lot more love in the long run)

-read constantly. anything. everything. if it had words, i read it. however, that's not what really set me apart. what did that was when other kids would try to pull me outside to play, and i'd decline. to read a gardening catalog. i never liked being interrupted by someone trying to get me to do what they wanted to do at that moment.

-i didn't correct teachers at that young an age. what i did do was apparently as irritating though. i questioned. asked things that people didn't know the answers to or didn't want to talk to me about. maybe assumed i couldn't handle it (a wrong assumption).
for instance... at church, while at a 'sunbeam' meeting at age four, i asked my sunday school teacher how man multiplied if it was just adam and eve and they only had two sons. she became angry, while i remained calm... but still kept asking. i wanted to know, and she was supposed to know this! finally i got the same answer i'd get many times, "some things you just have to wait and ask god about". pfft.

-decided that learning to use the greek alphabet would be a good idea, then did so.

-got in trouble for telling kids the "real" grimm's fairy tales.

-during the time we'd get to play outside, i chose to explore the woods behind the school, followed the life of some tadpoles in a puddle, wanted to see what smoking a cigar was like, so tried it with one i'd stolen, puked...

-noticed in the first grade that i was the only kid who got upset because we could only check out three books at a time from the school library.

-also noticed, still in the kindergarten year, that i was the only one in the sections i gravitated towards... dinosaurs, greek mythology, anything about UFOs, ripley's believe it or not books, aesop's fables, etc.

-as far as showing my competence, i saved that for when the competence seemed to matter the most to people (thus had the biggest effect), in sports, fights, games, arguments, etc. unless it was something like a spelling bee.

 

[heart]

I am not NT, but I can say there are no defining moments or as Dr Phil (ugh) likes to say "changing days" in my life. When I look back over my life, I can see that any time I have been influenced it has come over time and never just one factor. There seem to be many trends and threads of change that came in groups along with each other.

 

[Oberon]

-also noticed, still in the kindergarten year, that i was the only one in the sections i gravitated towards... dinosaurs, , greek mythology, anything about UFOs, ripley's believe it or not books, aesop's fables, etc.

The first book I ever bought for myself was a collection of short stories by Ray Bradbury. It was a cheap paperback in a bright red cover, I got it at the mall bookstore for 75 cents. It was titled Golden Apples of the Sun. I still have it.

I first picked it up because it had snakes and bats and a skull on the cover, but I kept it because the inside was full of stories like I'd never read before. I think I was 11 at the time, which makes me rather a late bloomer...but we lived in the country, and I didn't get out much.

 

[Natrushka]

The first book I ever bought for myself was a collection of short stories by Ray Bradbury. It was a cheap paperback in a bright red cover, I got it at the mall bookstore for 75 cents. It was titled Golden Apples of the Sun. I still have it.

Harlan Ellison, I have no mouth and I must scream. I had vivid, terrifying fantasies after reading that short story. So much so that when watching The Matrix years ago, during the scene where the Agents are first interviewing Neo and his mouth morphs shut I felt like I was 11 yo again.

 

[Totenkindly]

Harlan Ellison, I have no mouth and I must scream. I had vivid, terrifying fantasies after reading that short story. So much so that when watching The Matrix years ago, during the scene where the Agents are first interviewing Neo and his mouth morphs shut I felt like I was 11 yo again.

yes, I thought of the same story!

Ellison is great. A little cocky, but his writing sickens me (out of pure envy on my part, I fully admit it) -- he makes it look so easy.

 

[Natrushka]

Ellison, Merril, Bloch, Dick, Delaney. Old faithful friends <sigh>

 

[digesthisickness]

The first book I ever bought for myself was a collection of short stories by Ray Bradbury. It was a cheap paperback in a bright red cover, I got it at the mall bookstore for 75 cents. It was titled Golden Apples of the Sun. I still have it.

never read it, but i don't have to in order to know i'd have ate that up repeatedly.

oh god, and those bug/animal/plant encyclopedias. heaven!

I first picked it up because it had snakes and bats and a skull on the cover, but I kept it because the inside was full of stories like I'd never read before. I think I was 11 at the time, which makes me rather a late bloomer...but we lived in the country, and I didn't get out much.

aww. i feel for the little you. i was poor and was moved around a lot due to family drama. books were (and still are) beauty, and the library was where the "real" world came to life. however, being that i only had access to a school library at that time, the glory of having an INT for a dad was my saving grace on those few occasions when it was his turn at the drama wheel. his bathroom was my church. my intro to entire collections of ripley's, UFOs, and conan the barbarian.

people can say what they want, but this is why i adore these sites. few people IRL would nod and say, "yeah, i did the same thing" instead of, "yeah, soooo.... whatya say we order a pizza?"

 

[Oberon]

The Bradbury book included a couple of stories that REALLY got my attention, namely "The Fog Horn" and "A Sound of Thunder," both of which remain to this day some of the best fantasy/sci-fi stories ever written IMHO.

Regarding bug/plant/animal encyclopedias: My grandfather loved to get behind the wheel of his giant old Chrysler and just drive, and on one of his extended road trips he went to Florida. He came back with two cheaply-printed, saddle-stapled books for me: One was a compendium of all the reptiles and amphibians native to Florida, and the other was a similar book about sharks, each entry featuring a photo and a paragraph of descriptive text.

I wore those books out.