Dear Fe User,

[highlander]

@ violaine - I always thought other people did that too, but after talking to a whole pile of people about it, I found that there are a lot of people that are not particularly interested. They may be interested as it pertains to them, or if it involved intriguing gossip about someone they know, but not just for the sake of it. I am compelled when I go out to dinner to figure out the nature of the relationship of most of the diners around me - first date? Family member? Longterm companions? New acquaintances? I like to watch them interact and predict what will happen next. I found out that some of my friends think that is either intrusive, weird, or just uninteresting. Can't shut it off though.

Somehow I feel uncomfortable until I've kind of figured out the basics of what someone is all about. It's not really even about how I'm going to interact with them, it's more like I just need to know where they fit and what their purpose is. One of my friends used to laugh about me filing people away in various folders and drawers of my mental filing cabinet. I responded that I was always perfectly ready to refile if new information came up, but otherwise they'd be littering my mental living room messily or getting lost under the newspapers somewhere.

I do have a strong desire to understand or get to know people but somehow it is different than this. It's more about the one on one connection with them vs. considering a group context or relationships.

Regarding the chess game, I don't see it as a hostile sort of thing (how can I eliminate you), so much as something like, "If I move here, what counter move is the other person likely to make? Which one of their players will they use? What directions can the different chess pieces around me go and how does that affect me and the other chess pieces in the game? Am I in danger?"

Do we really freak you out, Z?

Interesting about the Ni/Fe thing. That may account for why it feels much different to me than a lot of people's description of Fe based on interactions with their SFJ peoples.

It is a little scary. Yes. It may be how you feel about Te.

 

[Fidelia]

What part scares you about that? Can you see an analogous process for figuring out systems using Te? Are you able to describe that a little?

How would you describe the way you go about connecting with people one on one? To me it feels like Fi one on one connections are much more intense. Either you are in or you're out. If you're in, you're REALLY in. If not, you don't really know a whole lot about the inner person. Maybe it's why Fi sees Fe users as disengenuous or wearing a mask. I think we just have more gradual degrees of connection. Are there strong differences in Fi users connecting to other Fi users, vs Fi to Fe? What flips the switch for you guys in how you choose to connect with someone individually?

 

[Zarathustra]

Do we really freak you out, Z?

And here's the reason why.

I put prime importance on my own internal feelings (I'm just using this as shorthand for Fi, which I got flack about a couple days ago, but I don't care, cuz it's close enough, and still makes sense. <<< to the person who gave me flack. ).

So long as I'm abiding by them, I feel fine with myself.

But you social chess players: you guys are always playing this game that I don't want to be playing.

It's your guys' game, not mine.

I find it fake, and inauthentic, and all the other things Fi-ers generally tend to say when they complain about Fe-ers.

Yet this game can have an effect on me, even if I don't want it to.

And, to me, that is really gay!

I just wanna be able to follow my own rules, my own values, my own feelings, my Fi.

I don't want to worry about how this or that is going to hurt my "position" in this "chess game" that I don't even want to be a part of, but have thrust upon me as a human being surrounded by other human beings.

Now, don't get me wrong: Fe-users ain't the only issue... Fi-users could hate me for who I am, what I do, etc.

I ain't saying that it's just some party of like, "Oh, I hate all the Fe-users, and I love the Fi-users."

There's always some kinda chess game going on in some way, regardless of what types some are.

But this social chess game does seem to be very prevalent amongst Fe-users, and I think many Fi-users find it unpleasant.

This is where I actually side with and understand this oft-mentioned "communication gap" between Fi-users and Fe-users.

I really do see certain people as genuinely interested in this game, like it's part of their DNA, and others who are not so interested.

And I think there's a high-ass correlation between those who are interested and Fe-users.



My two cents...

 

[Giggly]

I think SFJ Fe is different than NFJ Fe from the feedback I've gotten from other people about how they see SFJ Fe at work. I liked your synopsis though highlander from PM's stuff. I think Fe has a lot to do with using all angles of how the group works, connects, gets along (or doesn't) and all of their views and then deciding what is the course of action most amenable to the intended goal, while accommodating the most people. However, Fe sometimes has no problem opposing people. It's not that you only do what the group consensus wants. I think for me, Fe is being aware of how my decision or actions or expressed opinion is going to be reacted to, countered or felt by others and then weighing what course of action will most closely achieve the goal that I am trying for. There are times when opposition is extremely necessary. However I think you should go into it knowing whether you will be winning the battle but losing the war when doing so or what implications it has for everyone involved (will me doing this screw someone else over and does the good to be gained from that counterbalance the cost it will have to me or the person who I am affecting by making this an issue, etc).

Fe also means that I tend to come to a decision or opinion, but then will run it by several other people whom I rely on. Depending on their reactions, I may take more time to consider or may go ahead. I may decide that my emotions about the issue at hand are temporary or should not be acted on, or that they are valid and my gut feeling is right, depending on the uniformity or strength of response from those I trust.

I think Fe starts with itself and what makes sense based on observation and thought put in and then looks outside for input. Fi appears to me to be more open initially to external ideas and influences no matter whom or where they come from, but the final call comes from within one's own self.

No, this is exactly how I use it too.

^Wow, that is exactly how I see it. I didn't really assoc that with Fe *shrug*. (I don't participate, I feel like more of an observer but I feel like I can see everyone I know moving within their little orbits, who they orbit around and why. It's not something I try to see, it just happens. Sorry if this is a tangent.)

Yep. Same here.

 

[violaine]

I realized awhile ago that some people don't think down the road about anything bad that's going to happen, and can't see it coming. They won't even believe it if you tell them it's coming until you can show them the actual "blood on the knife". I'm not saying I understand everything, but some of these things do seem sort of common sense or obvious.

I'm beginning to conclude that being a Ni-dom means constantly considering all of the possibilities and what would happen with each, kind of like a choose your own adventure book. It's part of the reason why I can't stand people not communicating with me or giving me some kind of information to work with. It's also why I seem to need to have some way to narrow down the possibilities or I can't focus in on what I need to in practicality.

I think maybe non Ni people are focussing their attention on other aspects of life that I am completely oblivious to and routinely miss. They are just as incredulous that I don't see that kind of stuff, which is so very obvious to them.

Would you say that Ni is a "look down the road" function? If so, I think this tendancy manifests itself in human systems with Fe users Ni people and maybe with other kinds of systems for Fi user Ni people, but I don't know.

(Hmm, forum is a little glitchy for me this evening so just ignore if the conversation moved on from this.)

Yes, I think Ni is that. I have always tended to observe and predict, not to leverage things, that doesn't even occur to me. It's in an almost purely analytical way. I don't know what the motivation or pay-off is but I just feel blind not doing that. It's like I'm 'pinging' my environment, taking readings. I know I don't have any real value judgements tied up with my observations, something has to be threatening before I act on my observations.

Actually, talking about it like this, I can see why other people might find it creepy, like they are being analyzed constantly. I have had that complaint before. I don't actively seek information though, which makes me think I might appear cold (?) or disengaged when I'm pondering.

Though, if someone is on the up and up they have nothing to worry about, do they?. (j/k)

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks Giggly. Seems like there are very few SFJs who end up in these discussions, so the only point of comparison is what other people say their experiences are with Fe-using SFJs and a lot of that just doesn't sound like how I operate - I don't like social conventions just for the sake of them. If there is no useful or practical purpose to them, I don't encourage them to continue. However, I think there are some "conventions" if you want to call them that which just serve as some kind of grease to smooth out human interaction and make it less noisy and more glidy.

 

[highlander]

What part scares you about that? Can you see an analogous process for figuring out systems using Te? Are you able to describe that a little?

How would you describe the way you go about connecting with people one on one? To me it feels like Fi one on one connections are much more intense. Either you are in or you're out. If you're in, you're REALLY in. If not, you don't really know a whole lot about the inner person. Maybe it's why Fi sees Fe users as disengenuous or wearing a mask. I think we just have more gradual degrees of connection. Are there strong differences in Fi users connecting to other Fi users, vs Fi to Fe? What flips the switch for you guys in how you choose to connect with someone individually?

I'll explain it from my perspective.

I think it is frightening for an INTJ because we tend to want to cover our bases. We expect things to go wrong and have contingency plans to address those things. A good deal of our focus is on understanding how events will play out in the future. There is power in the insight and knowledge you refer to which we fear will be either abused, used against us or harmful to those we care about. It hits an area where we feel we have a weakness, a blind spot and do not have contingency plans or countermeasures for. That is how I would describe it.

I'll have to respond to the second part tomorrow.

 

[Fidelia]

So what you're saying is that if the INFJs and the INTJs could only get together, we could rule a sizeable portion of the world? *evil grin and manaical laughter*

@ Zara - I haven't really thought about it that way until wading into several of these threads. I don't really see me as being terribly conscious of the chess game. It sort of just is whether any of us want it to exist or not. Therefore, I think if your objective is to be able to go through life being able to accomplish your personal aims or be free or whatever else, the shortest path to doing so is to arm yourself with enough observation and knowledge that you can navigate the game successfully without being taken off the board. Does that make any sense? I think Fe-ers would even agree that it's a pity, but once you come to terms with the idea that that's how it is, then their attention turns to the idea, "So now what? What am I going to do with what's been handed to me?"

I think maybe Te is like that too. Ti is pretty idealistic and sees the "ought" rather than the "is" in a lot of things from that realm. Sometimes it doesn't acknowledge that you have to learn to navigate in the circumstances you find yourself in.

Don't know if I'm expressing that right or not, but that's how it looks to me from here.

 

[Fidelia]

(Hmm, forum is a little glitchy for me this evening so just ignore if the conversation moved on from this.)

Yes, I think Ni is that. I have always tended to observe and predict, not to leverage things, that doesn't even occur to me. It's in an almost purely analytical way. I don't know what the motivation or pay-off is but I just feel blind not doing that. It's like I'm 'pinging' my environment, taking readings. I know I don't have any real value judgements tied up with my observations, something has to be threatening before I act on my observations.

Actually, talking about it like this, I can see why other people might find it creepy, like they are being analyzed constantly. I have had that complaint before. I don't actively seek information though, which makes me think I might appear cold (?) or disengaged when I'm pondering.

Though, if someone is on the up and up they have nothing to worry about, do they?. (j/k)

Yeah I was thinking about what Lady X said in the MBTI Body Language thread the other day about feeling like NFJs are sort of silently judging. I think it's more a matter of us getting our bearings in a new environment. You're right that I seldom have a whole lot of judgement tied up in those impressions. I'm just gathering a bunch of different impressions like tiles of a mosaic to see if there is any picture that emerges from the pieces I have so far. If there is, I'll probably wait till the picture is a lot more complete before even verbalizing my thoughts on it, and even then, I may only do so if it seems like it is important to do so and something bad would happen if I didn't.

You're right - for me it's about analysis and understanding my surroundings, not playing a game of leverage by tabulating a person's weak spots in case it is useful to me in the future.

 

[Kalach]

What part scares you about that? Can you see an analogous process for figuring out systems using Te?

Sure. And that seems to be where the upsetting part comes it. If I'm invested in the outer environment, the investment is indirect, via some sense of that environment's impersonal systems. I will have invested some part of myself in thinking I know what's right for "out there" and what the next step should be. But this somehow often, indeed seemingly every time, puts me in conflict with Fe choices.

I suspect it is not that Fe and Te and logically opposed, but that people following those different priorities do compete for the right to direct. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it's just that they want attention drawn back to their decision the better for it to be realised, and it just so happens that this process draws attention, and resources, away from the other's decision.

 

[Giggly]

Thanks Giggly. Seems like there are very few SFJs who end up in these discussions, so the only point of comparison is what other people say their experiences are with Fe-using SFJs and a lot of that just doesn't sound like how I operate - I don't like social conventions just for the sake of them. If there is no useful or practical purpose to them, I don't encourage them to continue. However, I think there are some "conventions" if you want to call them that which just serve as some kind of grease to smooth out human interaction and make it less noisy and more glidy.

I feel the same way.

 

[violaine]

Yeah I was thinking about what Lady X said in the MBTI Body Language thread the other day about feeling like NFJs are sort of silently judging. I think it's more a matter of us getting our bearings in a new environment. You're right that I seldom have a whole lot of judgement tied up in those impressions. I'm just gathering a bunch of different impressions like tiles of a mosaic to see if there is any picture that emerges from the pieces I have so far. If there is, I'll probably wait till the picture is a lot more complete before even verbalizing my thoughts on it, and even then, I may only do so if it seems like it is important to do so and something bad would happen if I didn't.

You're right - for me it's about analysis and understanding my surroundings, not playing a game of leverage by tabulating a person's weak spots in case it is useful to me in the future.

I feel like I'm seeing for the first time how unnerving it might be for people who don't work this way. Perhaps because they don't realize there is no judgement usually attached. Someone I'm close to has a huge problem with that I work this way, that I seem to be analyzing and I've never known what to do about smoothing things over. But now I feel like I can perhaps reassure her that I'm not weighing her up or waiting for her to make a mistake...

 

[Glycerine]

Yeah I was thinking about what Lady X said in the MBTI Body Language thread the other day about feeling like NFJs are sort of silently judging. I think it's more a matter of us getting our bearings in a new environment. You're right that I seldom have a whole lot of judgement tied up in those impressions. I'm just gathering a bunch of different impressions like tiles of a mosaic to see if there is any picture that emerges from the pieces I have so far. If there is, I'll probably wait till the picture is a lot more complete before even verbalizing my thoughts on it, and even then, I may only do so if it seems like it is important to do so and something bad would happen if I didn't.

You're right - for me it's about analysis and understanding my surroundings, not playing a game of leverage by tabulating a person's weak spots in case it is useful to me in the future.

Random: I know that I judge people based on the consistency of their actions. If it's small things, I don't care but if it is big things, then no thank you. Do you guys base your judgments on how much social protocol people follow? If someone doesn't seem to have any sense of social etiquette, they seem to scare me.

 

[Fidelia]

I think anyone that stands out in certain ways - social protocol, unusual eye contact patterns etc makes me take a second look and figure out if there are other underlying reasons that I feel uncomfortable around them. Usually there are.

I do care a lot about consistency. I think frequency of inconsistency (a lot of small things) or severity (one really big thing) cause mental alarm bells to go off for me. When it's small, I find it hard to judge when is a good time to verbalize my concerns until I can present an extensive pattern to them and also have eliminated other possible explanations or motives for why the person may have behaved as they did.

@ violaine - It never really occurred to me that I may need to verbalize that to people, but I think you may be right. It probably would help if they understood it was more a way for me to get my bearings and also understand the world around me, rather than judging them constantly. Having said that, I still do make mental sticky notes and if I see a certain pattern emerging, I'm going to pay closer attention to it. Is that felt as being judgy do you think?

 

[Thalassa]

Thanks Giggly. Seems like there are very few SFJs who end up in these discussions, so the only point of comparison is what other people say their experiences are with Fe-using SFJs and a lot of that just doesn't sound like how I operate - I don't like social conventions just for the sake of them. If there is no useful or practical purpose to them, I don't encourage them to continue. However, I think there are some "conventions" if you want to call them that which just serve as some kind of grease to smooth out human interaction and make it less noisy and more glidy.

Yes, for example, if someone's friend dies and you never knew the person who died AT ALL, and the someone you're talking to suddenly wants to engage you in a conversation that has no real interest to you (because you learned to deal with death as a child, and this person is pushing fifty, so inwardly you want to roll your eyes because they're freaked out because they've never been to a burial before at 48 years of age) you still say "I'm sorry" and "that's sad" and "that must be hard for you" and hug them, because it would be mean and hurtful to do anything else.

This is why social conventions are a good thing.

As for this "chess game" you people keep talking about, I don't see it that way, I see things like some people know how to behave, and others don't, and people who don't play well with others should be made to behave. I have tried to control the behavior or "take over" in situations where I thought there was dire social chaos or the person needed "retraining." Whatever this is, it's surely why I give off an FJ vibe no matter what feeling function I'm using.

 

[violaine]

I think anyone that stands out in certain ways - social protocol, unusual eye contact patterns etc makes me take a second look and figure out if there are other underlying reasons that I feel uncomfortable around them. Usually there are.

I do care a lot about consistency. I think frequency of inconsistency (a lot of small things) or severity (one really big thing) cause mental alarm bells to go off for me. When it's small, I find it hard to judge when is a good time to verbalize my concerns until I can present an extensive pattern to them and also have eliminated other possible explanations or motives for why the person may have behaved as they did.

@ violaine - It never really occurred to me that I may need to verbalize that to people, but I think you may be right. It probably would help if they understood it was more a way for me to get my bearings and also understand the world around me, rather than judging them constantly. Having said that, I still do make mental sticky notes and if I see a certain pattern emerging, I'm going to pay closer attention to it. Is that felt as being judgy do you think?

I'm guessing it must feel that way. It's the same for me in that I'm navigating the world that way. I do the same with the sticky notes but I don't think of that as judgemental. It's like the amber light before it eventually goes to red or green. Hmm.

I also draw back when someone is throwing very heavy, negative emotions my way. I think it could look like disapproval when really it is about processing information. I'm taking their feelings very seriously and wondering what I can do to help them feel better. I think this is the main bone of contention between myself and very emotionally expressive people. It is hard for me to adapt to a constantly changing emotional landscape... It has only been recently that I have understood that it's simply venting. I still don't like being on the receiving end and I'm not quite sure how to navigate this but it seems to be the main reason for disconnect between myself and a few Fi users in my life. (For want of a better description.)

 

[Thalassa]

Actually, talking about it like this, I can see why other people might find it creepy, like they are being analyzed constantly. I have had that complaint before. I don't actively seek information though, which makes me think I might appear cold (?) or disengaged when I'm pondering

I have had the complaint as well that I am analyzing a person too much or they feel overanalyzed by me.

A lot of times I am analyzing what I strategically need to do socially to make the current situation go as well as possible, despite whatever inner feeling I have.

Don't know if this is Fe or Fi/Te "pseudo Fe". Whatever it is I'm quite good at it when I apply myself.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm guessing it must feel that way. It's the same for me in that I'm navigating the world that way. I do the same with the sticky notes but I don't think of that as judgemental. It's like the amber light before it eventually goes to red or green. Hmm.

I also draw back when someone is throwing very heavy, negative emotions my way. I think it could look like disapproval when really it is about processing information. I'm taking their feelings very seriously and wondering what I can do to help them feel better. I think this is the main bone of contention between myself and very emotionally expressive people. It is hard for me to adapt to a constantly changing emotional landscape... It has only been recently that I have understood that it's simply venting. I still don't like being on the receiving end and I'm not quite sure how to navigate this but it seems to be the main reason for disconnect between myself and a few Fi users in my life. (For want of a better description.)

I know a lot of times I do not feel what the other person is feeling, but I still respond with sympathy, it's not that I don't care (well sometimes I don't depending on what it is) but most of the time I do care and I go out of my way to placate the person and give them what they need, but I may not really "feel it" if that makes any sense. It's more like I'm caring for the person, but emotionally distanced from the situation.

I'm really weird this way because at other times I can be very sensitive and emotional and easily moved, and I hate when people are unnecessarily cruel to others, especially if the others are trying to be kind.

 

[Fidelia]

I'm guessing it must feel that way. It's the same for me in that I'm navigating the world that way. I do the same with the sticky notes but I don't think of that as judgemental. It's like the amber light before it eventually goes to red or green. Hmm.

I also draw back when someone is throwing very heavy, negative emotions my way. I think it could look like disapproval when really it is about processing information. I'm taking their feelings very seriously and wondering what I can do to help them feel better. I think this is the main bone of contention between myself and very emotionally expressive people. It is hard for me to adapt to a constantly changing emotional landscape... It has only been recently that I have understood that it's simply venting. I still don't like being on the receiving end and I'm not quite sure how to navigate this but it seems to be the main reason for disconnect between myself and a few Fi users in my life. (For want of a better description.)

Who gave you permission to share my brain, woman? Amber lights - yeah that's it! Re second paragraph - I feel the same way when someone reacts to me in a very unexpected way compared to how they usually would. I usually have a pretty good idea of what to expect, so when they react differently than that in a way I couldn't have even imagined, I draw way back to try to figure it out and recalibrate. Sometimes it is a reaction under stress, but if it doesn't seem to be typical and I've known them a long time, it really makes me question even my own perception of the world and my judgment.

 

[Coriolis]

How would you describe the way you go about connecting with people one on one? To me it feels like Fi one on one connections are much more intense. Either you are in or you're out. If you're in, you're REALLY in. If not, you don't really know a whole lot about the inner person. Maybe it's why Fi sees Fe users as disengenuous or wearing a mask. I think we just have more gradual degrees of connection. Are there strong differences in Fi users connecting to other Fi users, vs Fi to Fe? What flips the switch for you guys in how you choose to connect with someone individually?

I agree about the intensity. Some of the most amazing and stimulating conversations I have had have been with Fi dom/aux people. I either discover fairly quickly that I am on the same wavelength with someone such that this can happen (rarely); or discover equally quickly, and reinforce with each passing encounter, that there is no benefit to opening up to this person much at all (frequently). It really is all or nothing.

For me, the switch is flipped by something the other person says that gives me a sufficient glimpse of their perspectives. Occasionally this can be in response to a direct challenge on my part, to see what they're made of, but more often it just happens. I should point out that not all intensity is the same. For example, I connect with some colleagues fairly intensely, but in a different way than I connect with close friends.