Dear Fe User,

[highlander]

On the one hand, I admire Fe. Its focus on connecting, compassion, giving and being accommodating are a big part of what makes the world a good place to live. It "honors" the feeling of others, which is really wonderful and because of all of these remarkable qualities, it facilitates the building of trusting relationships in the way that perhaps no other function can replicate. Without it, I don't know if harmonious society would be possible.

At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.

Don't get me wrong. I am a huge Fe fan. As I first stated, I see all of the good that it does in the world. Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think. Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself. When I think something is right or it's wrong, it's my own opinion and not the opinion of others. With that perspective in particular, it is important to pick your battles.

Anyway, I guess what really bothers me is a deep disconnect on the values as to what is important. It is enough to understand this and to see the worth of both perspectives, I suppose for now.

Thank you very much and carry on.

 

[Kalach]

Perhaps the other side of the coin: women's rights.

Now bear with me, this is just a vague intuition and perhaps over-simple...

it seems to me that particularly when viewing women's rights as a structural issue, we're seeing one of the places where Fe as a logical, analytical decision-maker can do one of the things it does. Perhaps that thing is the identifying and attaching of moral meaning to roles and conditions as they exist, and a determining that change is required.

Fe as progressive, who knew.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Don't forget how Fe is often used to manipulate people. That's something I don't like about it. It's not always honest.

 

[cascadeco]

At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that it's perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.

Are there any specific examples you can provide other than the Salem Witch Trials? Only because I've always been very much against group-think/ sheep mentality, and often do not have popular/mainstream views with regards to most things. In fact I despise any sort of cultural pressure where it seems whomever/whatever is trying to mold the minds of 'the masses', whether that be in tv advertising, the news, etc.

Don'e get me wrong. I am a huge Fe fan. As i first stated, I see all of the good that it does in the world. Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think. Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself.

I'm happy to be freed from the tyranny of group think as well.

Anyway.. I've said this before on here, but for me personally, in the end I'm pretty results-oriented so will tend to take the smoothest course to achieve whatever net result is desired. If you want to bring Fe into this, yeah, this will mean I may use some sort of 'established protocol' (follow the corporate culture/value set, say, in a business setting) to be the framework of my conversation with a VP, because I know that will achieve the results I want. Or I might use a totally different method with someone else because I know they don't give a sh*t about the pleasantries. So for me, really, I don't see there being a black-and-white 'Right' way of doing things. I might *recognize* and be aware of what I perceive the group I'm surrounded by adheres to, and with that recognition will use those methods to accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished and avoid saying what I know they'll burn me at the stake for (i.e. Salem Witch Trial example) because frankly I don't want to be burned at the stake. However I won't talk the talk if I don't agree with it on a moral level (so I won't be in the masses demanding someone to be burnt), and I'll extricate myself from the situation then, if possible (move out of Salem).

And in my personal life, generally speaking I put other peoples' needs ahead of my own, and tend to accommodate quite a lot, and build upon commonalities and don't focus on differences. If there are too many differences, I tend not to be in the relationship at all. I really don't know that that's strictly Fe, though, as Fi can do this as well.

 

[IZthe411]

Can you separate Fe (action) from the P function source?

FOr instance, in another thread I just stated how I got hell from this Hispanic ESFJ bear looking dude because I don't participate in the 'Holiday Potluck' event my team throws. He tried to flip it every way, stating that it's for me to celebrate whatever I want, and that people shouldn't be asking me about my plans for Christmas, yadda yadda. I'm brushing him off but in my mind I'm calling him all types of idiots, because the party, despite what you call it, is to observe the holidays, and people ask what you are doing over that time!

To me it's obvious that his Fe is influenced by his Si perception that everyone is happy during this time, and wants me to be as happy as everyone else. This isn't the first time he's done this to me, trying to shame me into participating in something I didn't want to.

I've been around this guy enough to know that his Si function operates differently than my own. It might be because it's secondary to Fe, where for me it's first, but I would think that at his age (late 40s) he would have it together by now.

I think Fe has it's place, and is an excellent approach, but is has to be balanced by a good perception of the situation as well.

I have seen this guy's judgement work against a person as well. He's so fearful of my ISTJ boss that he told this intern she couldn't attend a lunch with her peers. It was obvious that he was Fe-ing based on his perception of his boss- what would make him happy, and that was to not let this girl go to lunch, but instead work.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Don't forget how Fe is often used to manipulate people. That's something I don't like about it. It's not always honest.

Hard to forget when there's 8 million threads bitching about it.

Don't forget how Ti often leads to retarded statements when it makes poor assumptions.

 

[sculpting]

Dear Fe user,

I am sorry as of late to be giving you such a hard time. This is a genuine apology, meant without any sarcasm or tongue in cheek ass kissing. I really am sorry for any discomfort or unhappiness my probing and questioning may cause. In general I find that a great number of Fe users I know are truly wonderful, caring individuals that have only the best intent. Even when they single me out and do those Fe things to me *shudders* I realize they mean it to be for the best. They are only trying to help or give guidance and they dont understand how deeply it can penetrate.

I suppose I hear what they mean to be a gentle Fe rebuke as instead, the most massive harsh critique another Fi user could ever offer. The resulting feelings are crushing and tell me that I have no business interacting with anyone and should wonder off into the wilderness alone. By telling me that what I feel is wrong-they are telling me that my soul, myself, my being is flawed and forged incorrectly and I need to go away and spend time reforging it or just never come back. Another Fi user would gently offer guidance via their reflections or experiences which would help me remold myself in small steps through mutual sharing and calibration. The Fe rebuke offers none of that and just conveys utter rejection and condemnation with no desire to discuss where or why I feel the way I do. The Fe user perceives that as making excuses, not furthering understanding.

In order to try and deal with Fe feedback in a reasonable manner, I now probe and poke and question to figure out the Fe expectations and needs-the mechanics so to speak. This way I can add a step in the middle that allows me to reinterrpret what I perceived you to be saying into what you really meant to convey. By understanding you I can also better meet your needs as I love a great number of you in the real world and want to take care of you and keep you happy. I want to give you what you need.

I would request that there is value to each of you as individuals in learning to recognize when you may have mistakenly applied your own individualized Fe values as being the values of the entire world-as often you them use this as a tool to dismember those who brings legitimate alternatives to the table. There is also value in realizing 50% of the population doesnt think or feel the way you do. Also, be very cautious as you will tend to lead through exclusion and isolate yourselves until everyone around you agrees with you-which may end up preventing you from accomplishing your goals-goals which are often Fe driven to help others. Your immediate desire for Fe harmony ends up preventing you from acheiving much larger Fe goals. Sometimes disruptions in the present result in the best final solution.

With much love and genuine respect for the caring beauty of Fe,
Orobas

 

[Aquarelle]

Even though I'm an INFJ, and according to Jung that means INiFeJ, I think I use Fi more than Fe. I agree with some of the things in the OP about Fe, but I don't think it's any more problematic than any other function used in an unbalanced way.

 

[gromit]

Dear Fe-users (especially introverted ones, for some reason),
Thanks for being patient and for giving good advice on interpersonal situations.

 

[Randomnity]

Well as an inferior Fe, I'm not sure I qualify but I suppose my Fi is even lower sooo....I'll comment on what I've seen in others at any rate. Note: this is all questioning, not arguing, although the tone may come off as abrupt it isn't intended to be

I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group.

Hmmm...are you saying you find it better to decide "appropriateness" based on your own individual feelings, rather than the overall feelings? This does seem to fit in better with Fi, but I'm not sure I agree that it's the proper way to go about things.

A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right

I'm interested in where this impression comes from, because I always see Fe users hemming and hawing about IMO and IME and "maybe" this and "perhaps" that, whereas Fi/Te comes across as "this is how it is (...and sometimes, "if you disagree you're attacking me")"

it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony.

I'll agree that this is perhaps more likely to occur in a herd of Fe than a herd of Fi, though I don't think it's exclusive to Fe or that Fe is like that by default. As far as maintaining harmony, that actually seems pretty common with (especially introverted) Fi, whereas you see (especially extroverted) Fe charging all over the place bringing up the underdog and making sure everyone is happy, dammit.

Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong.

What's the distinction between a "popular view" and a view that has considered the potential feelings of everyone before speaking? If people genuinely agree, why shouldn't they "pile on"? Is a commonly-held view more likely to be wrong than a rare view?

Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think.

Fe users have personal and subjective judgments too, although they are usually more reluctant to voice them in strong terms. Again, I don't think Fe users are prone to group think by definition. Fe considers everyone's feelings, even if they aren't in the majority. In fact, I suspect that as a more individually-focused function, Fi would be more vulnerable to a situation of groupthink in favour of the Fi user. Fe on the other hand would be assessing everyone's opinion and trying to see if anyone feels too intimidated to speak up.

Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself. When I think something is right or it's wrong, it's my own opinion and not the opinion of others. With that perspective in particular, it is important to pick your battles.

I think this is equally (or even more so) true for Fe users, actually.

Anyway, I guess what really bothers me is a deep disconnect on the values as to what is important. It is enough to understand this and to see the worth of both perspectives, I suppose for now.

What values do you specifically find important? What values do you think Fe users find important?

 

[Jaguar]

Dear Fe user,

You are a lovely person with great depth and kick-ass Ni.
Thank you for being my friend. :hi:

 

[highlander]

Hmmm...are you saying you find it better to decide "appropriateness" based on your own individual feelings, rather than the overall feelings? This does seem to fit in better with Fi, but I'm not sure I agree that it's the proper way to go about things.

It's not better. It's different.

I'm interested in where this impression comes from, because I always see Fe users hemming and hawing about IMO and IME and "maybe" this and "perhaps" that, whereas Fi/Te comes across as "this is how it is (...and sometimes, "if you disagree you're attacking me")"

It comes from experience and observation. The fact that the judgment is often expressed in a subtle way to maintain harmony does not mean that it is not there. Strong Fe users are judging all of the time whether you know it or not. I'm not going to get into the Fi "you are attacking me", "self pitying", "selfishness" thing. My Fi does not care about these things right now. I've heard enough about them already.

What's the distinction between a "popular view" and a view that has considered the potential feelings of everyone before speaking? If people genuinely agree, why shouldn't they "pile on"? Is a commonly-held view more likely to be wrong than a rare view?

I don't see it as much different but I'm sure some artful application of Ti would find find flaws in the nuances of the wording. It's close enough in my opinion.

What values do you specifically find important? What values do you think Fe users find important?

Fe users generally value harmony and group values. Fe is focused on the object (the feelings of others). Fi users are focused on what they personally feel is important or to the extent something is good or bad. It is their personal appraisal based on their own beliefs, sense of integrity, right and wrong, etc. It is subjective - it comes from within vs. influence of the object. Therefore, by definition, it is less likely to be susceptible to group think/feelings.

 

[highlander]

Are there any specific examples you can provide other than the Salem Witch Trials?

Fashion.

That one's harmless enough. And don't say you're not into fashion - it isn't the point.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Dear highlander,

I don't know exactly what's got you feeling this "beat-up", but I hear your frustration right now, and I want to offer you some thoughts. It feels challenging, even difficult, to operate in an environment where the "greater good" is defined outside of your locus of control. That the expression of your feelings or your own personal values are sometimes sacrificed to that "greater good" too, and the resultant expectations are that you should simply accept the decision of the group as the best decision for all. It can feel castigating to be subject to Fe judgement; it can seem like the whole world has deprecated your POV. My advice: hold true, stand fast, be strong. You are OK and your feelings are OK and I know that although it can leave one feeling small, your voice matters and you must never doubt that for a minute. You are needed. You are appreciated.

Dear Fe user,

For reasons I am not fully privy to, highlander is feeling frustrated, unheard or unappreciated for his POV. Take his post above within that context; it is not intended to be a condemnation of Fe, just an expression of how difficult it feels sometimes to be on the Fi end of the equation. Fe has the wonderful vantage point of always being "right". And I know many of you Fe users do swallow your own personal ideas in order to help facilitate the harmony of the group, and I have come to appreciate that you only express yourselves emotionally with intent. But Fi just needs to express emotions sometimes; highlander just needed to get that out. There's no intent here to inflame or annoy or hurt anyone, nor do I imagine there is a specific pre-defined purpose to his post. He needed to vent and I suggest you just let him, and ask why, even offer a kind word or two to help.

highlander - for you Fe users - for you

other Fi users - ah, go on, get outta here, I gave you enough hugs already!

 

[cascadeco]

Fashion.

That one's harmless enough. And don't say you're not into fashion - it isn't the point.

Fair enough. Yes, there are always going to be and always have been 'group standards'/ norms when it comes to most things in life. I'm not certain how much of this is actually due to Fe alone, but yes, anytime one veers away from the norm, one faces the possible repercussions of doing so.

It's also important to note that just because one adheres to some supposed 'group standard', doesn't mean that person hasn't fully thought everything through and come to a personal understanding that that's what they truly believe in. i.e. it doesn't mean they've picked up some norm without any forethought/analysis at all. And what if an Fi user has a personalized value set that alligns with the group? That's still their own Fi-derived values, it just happens to match up with the majority as well.

 

[Randomnity]

I'm getting the feeling that this might have been more intended as more of a venting than a discussion. So, sorry for that. I just find it interesting, especially in light of the Fi discussions.

 

[gromit]

Yeah I think I misunderstood the purpose of this thread...

 

[JocktheMotie]

Fe didn't make Oberon leave, Oberon made Oberon leave.

 

[highlander]

Take his post above within that context; it is not intended to be a condemnation of Fe, just an expression of how difficult it feels sometimes to be on the Fi end of the equation. Fe has the wonderful vantage point of always being "right". And I know many of you Fe users do swallow your own personal ideas in order to help facilitate the harmony of the group, and I have come to appreciate that you only express yourselves emotionally with intent. But Fi just needs to express emotions sometimes; highlander just needed to get that out. There's no intent here to inflame or annoy or hurt anyone, nor do I imagine there is a specific pre-defined purpose to his post. He needed to vent.

This is exactly right. It is the entire point.

It is something I was hoping would lead to discussion though - not just pure venting. The fact that a group's norms and values are a certain way does not mean those are right. That is a big part of what I'm saying.

 

[IZthe411]

Okay I got it.