Culturally accepted child abuse

[Xander]

my main question is "are we by putting such a stigma to abuse, causing more pain to the people we are trying to protect?"

OH!

Yes. We always punish everyone for the actions of the most depraved, deluded and idiotic. However unless you establish that something is very very wrong then how can you dissuade people from doing it? It's not like you can police it very well.

 

[Xander]

I don't know if this is connected, but I ran across this "rape" t-shirt the other day, with an opened safe on it and inside are the tiny words "I was raped."

Some people thought this was a good idea, allowing victims of rape to feel like they could speak up and stop keeping such a dreadful secret. Others thought it just contributed to the social stigma of rape.

Not to trivialise this but I have to wonder where their thinking comes from. Can you also get a t-shirt with a large yellow stain saying "I'm a bed wetter"?

Maybe it's my British sensibilities but I would really not want to go around with a sandwich board on me stating my most personal troubles.

 

[Badlands]

I think child labor really isn't abuse as long as the needs of the children are considered and we make sure child workers really want to work and that their money is not expendable to their parents directly, but that's all I think has gone "backwards". For the most part, our standards of abuse have become better.

 

[Kiddo]

Thats not really what I was asking, I belive these things to be Wrong. I dont see how they could not be considered wrong.

What Xander managed to answer really quite well was how could it be right at a point in time or some cultures but be wrong now.

but my main question is "are we by putting such a stigma to abuse, causing more pain to the people we are trying to protect?"

Go read the "Fostering Victimhood" thread if you want a good demonstration of the stigma and the powerfully socialized emotions that are associated with sexual abuse.

Ultimately your friend has to do two things in order to move forward in life.

1. Accept that it isn't her fault.
2. Accept responsibility for her life from now on so she can leave the past behind her.

 

[mippus]

... so we are not to judge the victim, they should have their own way of dealing with the situation. I agree. But we can judge the offender? And the sick logic in these matters seems to be that judging the offender seems to include some sort of statement on how victims should/could behave...

 

[edel weiss]

Not to trivialise this but I have to wonder where their thinking comes from. Can you also get a t-shirt with a large yellow stain saying "I'm a bed wetter"?

Maybe it's my British sensibilities but I would really not want to go around with a sandwich board on me stating my most personal troubles.

Actually, I do think a t-shirt like that could be a good idea for some people. The rape victim didn't do anything wrong, the victim has nothing to be ashamed of. It could provide a lot of relief, knowing that you don't have to keep this a secret.

 

[Kiddo]

... so we are not to judge the victim, they should have their own way of dealing with the situation. I agree. But we can judge the offender? And the sick logic in these matters seems to be that judging the offender seems to include some sort of statement on how victims should/could behave...

Huh?

 

[mippus]

It is horrible to have to express yourself in your non-native language in matters as difficult as these. Let me try, but please, forgive me any possible unintended bluntness due to my linguistic limitations.

We (rightfully) label offenders as such, but then -as some sort of consequence- may take a very confusing stand on victims. Something like a form of compassion and empathy but at the same moment an attitude that says "don't be a victim, be strong, don't let them do this to you". I always found this a very confusing attitude. A result to this confusement may be that it becomes close to impossible for victims to "do what is right".
And now back on topic: eventhough taboos can be very destructive, they may also give people some shelter, some privacy. I find this question on the value/danger of taboos an extremely difficult one. The thought above is just one example of how it is difficult for me to judge since taboo subjects can be so complex...

 

[Kiddo]

It is horrible to have to express yourself in your non-native language in matters as difficult as these. Let me try, but please, forgive me any possible unintended bluntness due to my linguistic limitations.

We (rightfully) label offenders as such, but then -as some sort of consequence- may take a very confusing stand on victims. Something like a form of compassion and empathy but at the same moment an attitude that says "don't be a victim, be strong, don't let them do this to you". I always found this a very confusing attitude. A result to this confusement may be that it becomes close to impossible for victims to "do what is right".

I'm sorry its confusing for you but that is the reality of being a victim. No one said being a victim was easy. They not only have to suffer the actual abuse, but also the stigma that is associated with being a victim of abuse. If a victim is going to have any hope of moving forward and not blaming themselves, then they need to eventually take responsiblity for their own lives. That is how they will be able to function and how they will develop the confidence and understanding to eventually realize that it wasn't their fault. If you only treat someone as a victim then that is how they will act. It's important for victims to know that people understand what they have been through, but victims also need to be reminded that they have the strength to overcome it. That is why people need to provide support by defining victims by their strengths, not the abuse.

 

[mippus]

I absolutely understand what you say, and of course it is vital. Still: where is the line with ignoring the abuse? It should be given some weight, but how much? What is empathy, what is stigma?

 

[Kiddo]

I absolutely understand what you say, and of course it is vital. Still: where is the line with ignoring the abuse? It should be given some weight, but how much? What is empathy, what is stigma?

First off, no one should ever ignore abuse. The question isn't whether abuse should be addressed, but how it should be addressed.

Empathy is the ability to relate to what a person is going through. If an individual is defining a person as a victim, then they are demonstrating very little empathy. That is stigma. It comes down to communication. People should never assume how a victim feels, but should talk with them, be there to support them, and remind them of their strength and ability to overcome. That is empathy.

The difference is quite simple, stigma is defining a victim by what has happened to them, empathy is being there for the victim and reminding them of their strength.

 

[Xander]

First off, no one should ever ignore abuse. The question isn't whether abuse should be addressed, but how it should be addressed.

Empathy is the ability to relate to what a person is going through. If an individual is defining a person as a victim, then they are demonstrating very little empathy. That is stigma. It comes down to communication. People should never assume how a victim feels, but should talk with them, be there to support them, and remind them of their strength and ability to overcome. That is empathy.

The difference is quite simple, stigma is defining a victim by what has happened to them, empathy is being there for the victim and reminding them of their strength.

If you gasp and say "Oh no", even to a child, they respond as if something is wrong. Perhaps this response is wrong as it then loads your negative emotion on someone already struggling.

That's the cost of social "empathy". Not only do you have your own emotions to deal with but also society doing drive by emoting.

I realise that as I'm a T I'm far more likely to try to fix things than be there for someone but I've found that if people are quiet and just act as sounding boards the person is a lot less upset than if their "shoulder to cry on" has also lot it and is sobbing uncontrollably. If forget what had happened but at several points in life I distinctly recall having to console my consoler... most confusing..

 

[edel weiss]

That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.

 

[Kiddo]

That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.

I knew there was a correct neutral word, but for some reason I couldn't place it.

 

[aeon]

That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.

Ceasing to see myself as a victim of childhood emotional, physical, and sexual abuse, and instead accepting those events as things that happened was the single most important thing I did in terms of taking responsibility for my own happiness in this life, and in turn, experiencing it.


cheers,
Ian

 

[Oso Mocoso]

That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.

One of my best friends was a "survivor" as you put it. A survivor of childhood incest to be exact. I don't think the exact term made much difference. She was really hard to deal with when she came to terms with the abuse. It took her a while to really accept what had happened to her ... and it involved many conversations that I wasn't really equipped to deal with.

I did the best I could, but I wasn't really prepared to deal with the emotional needs of someone who'd been so abused as a child. I had no idea how to respond. I mean, this was someone I loved, but what should I say? I just had no idea. I tried to be comforting, but I don't know how effective I was.

 

[edel weiss]

I did the best I could, but I wasn't really prepared to deal with the emotional needs of someone who'd been so abused as a child. I had no idea how to respond. I mean, this was someone I loved, but what should I say? I just had no idea. I tried to be comforting, but I don't know how effective I was.

Oso Mocoso, most of the times, just being there for the person and letting them know that you love them and you want to help is very comforting. I'm sure she felt that and appreciated it.

Ceasing to see myself as a victim of childhood emotional, physical, and sexual abuse, and instead accepting those events as things that happened was the single most important thing I did in terms of taking responsibility for my own happiness in this life, and in turn, experiencing it.

That's wonderful, aeon.

 

[creativeRhino]

my husband was abused as a 4 year old (by the 13 year old girl neighbour - whose half-brothers "procured" him - use your imagination about how a 13 yo would even think of this...).

For him it was the powerlessness he felt - he didn't want the to be part of the girl's activities but he was terrorised/pressured into it AND made to fear the consequences of telling anybody.

So, the way I see it -
Abuse is when -
something is done by somebody has power over another
and the act is for the benefit of the abuser, not the target/abusee (eg sexual or other violent physical or emotional thing)
and may rely on secrecy.

ie it relies on one party being powerless in the transaction.

 

[INTJMom]

I have been thinking about this for a few years.
I know some-one who was sexually abused by their farther as a adolescent and it has left them with all sorts of issues, and there’s no deigning its WRONG…………But;

I read a book a few years ago about ancient Egypt (Fiction), and it was saying that people of high status often had young boys they would keep in their house and sleep with. The lead character was also being abused by her farther, but there was no stigma attached to this. She was fine with it as it was part and parcel of her normal life and accepted to be the norm by all around her.
A few years back in this country it was normal to take 5yr olds to work down the mine, or to give them 6 weeks of school and force them to help with the harvest.
In fact there’s lots of things that are now considered abuse which where perfectly normal a few years ago.

I’m probably not explaining very well, but basically is abuse still abuse if it’s accepted as the normal way of things by society as a whole? Is it the stigma attached to it that makes it so damaging?

I don't think it's just social stigma that makes it wrong.
It is inherently wrong per the Laws of the God of the Universe, just like murder and stealing.
It's not okay for one person to violate another person's innocence,
or use their body for their own selfish lusts.
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the writer of that work of fiction you described actually had an agenda of promoting pedophilia.
They wouldn't be the first.

 

[Carebear]

I don't think it's just social stigma that makes it wrong.

I agree. The question is: How much does the stigma add to the trauma. Was it equally traumatic in societies that accepted it?

It is inherently wrong per the Laws of the God of the Universe, just like murder and stealing.

Laws about stealing and killing don't seem to be universal though, and have through history generally only applied to people within the same society/perceived community.

It's not okay for one person to violate another person's innocence,
or use their body for their own selfish lusts.

Not by our standards, no (unless all sex could be considered using someone's body for your own selfish lust), but this hasn't always been the rule and still isn't in some parts of the world.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the writer of that work of fiction you described actually had an agenda of promoting pedophilia.
They wouldn't be the first.

I tend to agree with this. Either that or simply explore the subject we're discussing. If it's one sided, it's generally the first.