Cultural Differences and TYPE

[proteanmix]

With Dana's permission, I'm posting a PM conversation we had:

I am certain.

I've been looking for a way to use that!
When do you realize The Truth About Yourself?

Well, in my blog I was doing a lot of questioning of my type..

I knew I was an NP, and it never occurred to me that I was an extravert, so I felt like I had to choose between INTP and INFP. I kept flip flopping, but I just didn't feel like an INFP, what with their timid, introspective selves.. When I discovered my enneagram type (3) from doing actual book-reading and investigation rather than tests, it correlated the 3 with the ENTP. So I read about the ENTP, and the description jived much better with me (dom Ne), but it still didn't fit.. finally, I decided to read about the ENFP, just to give it a try.. and sure enough, it was the perfect fit. I can say with full confidence that I use those functions in that order (Ne Fi Te Si) and I'm glad I finally feel like I can identify with a type. I said in my blog, reading about the ENFP was like reading my biography.

Anyway.. what type do you think you are? Are you happily perched upon the fence of the information-gathering preference?

The jig is up! Dana, you are so well-liked. I think your deleting of posts was the most endearing thing you could've done.

What type am I? I feel fairly confident that I'm an ENFJ or at least EnFJ. I occasionally experience doubt of my type because I'm more grounded in reality than most people around here, I'm not flighty or head in the clouds, and I have good social skills. Yeah, I know that totally sounds like a sensate description.

What I think makes me different from other intuitives on the forum is cultural differences. As much as people shy away from race around here, I think being a black intuitive just makes me different from a white intuitive because culturally it's ingrained in me to have my "ear to the ground" and be more realistic than white intuitives. I'm a very solid person and have never conceptualized myself as airy. When I look at the world, it's not from an Si POV, it's very much Ni. I've been trying to figure out how to distinguish Si from Ni and figure out which one I use. I just notice that I don't view things the same way as the ESFJs around me. I don't know how strongly Ni I am and I hope I'm not mentally masturbating myself into thinking I'm intuitive. When I read the ESFJ description, I identify with large portions of it. When I read the ENFJ description, I identify with large portions of it. But when I break myself down functionally, I'm Fe Ni Se Ti. Which is why I could wipe my ass with type descriptions. ENFJs sound like gods. ESFJs sound like perfect nurturing mothers. I identify with neither.

I don't know Dana, this MBTI stuff is such bullshit. I've had to untrain myself about so much of it and not believe the hype.

Yes.. I definitely don't consider myself extremely introspective and analytical (or head-in-the-clouds), which is pretty much what is valued around here, but I don't care. I don't think being an intellectual is better than being laid back, real, and entertaining, so I'm trying to be true to what I appreciate in others, and I've stopped beating myself up about not being very Ti or Ni.. As for the cultural differences--I really enjoy being realistic, whereas a lot of people are so busy trying to be "understanding" that they don't even acknowledge cultural differences! They don't even want to talk about them! What an interesting thread that would make (black/white culture.. an objective side by side analysis). We kind of tip-toe around heavy topics here because MBTIc has a bit of a thinner skin than INTPc or my other favorite forum. MBTI is dangerous, because it allows for the dismissal of other types, and it creates a sort of ingroup/outgroup, elitist society. I think you should definitely voice your opinion on how a black intuitive would be different from a white intuitive. It would make a very insightful thread. And yeh, I'm not flighty or head in teh clouds.. some people wear their introversion/aversion to socialising/lack of social skills as a badge.. look how INxx I am! No one "gets" me! I'm unique and elusive! Rgh. I very much am proud of my social skills.. it took WORK to aquire them, and genuine interest in others, and attuning myself to their emotions and moods.. One of the reasons I'm proud to be an extravert. It's great to be people-oriented.

Thanks for the compliment.. It means a lot on this sunny Saturday afternoon.

I think you're right...would you mind if I posted this PM conversation to get the thread started?

Go ahead!

I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

What do people think?

 

[pure_mercury]

With Dana's permission, I'm posting a PM conversation we had:



I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

What do people think?

I wonder if my Irish and Italian heritage would have anything to do with my extroversion, or my feeling?

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Are you asking if we think that people are taught to fit in a mold that the culture expects them to?

I don't know. Maybe I'm projecting my own expierences with this onto your question, but yeah sadly I do believe that a your certain cultures do expect you to act a certain type. I also believe that if you are a certain type you wouldn't be able to fake being a certian type for long no matter who it was for. You are who you are.

Most black people are ISTJ?

I'm a black, male, INFJ, I'm almost the complete opposite of what I'm expected to be.

 

[Seanan]

I wonder if my Irish and Italian heritage would have anything to do with my extroversion, or my feeling?

I'm first generation born in with USA with Irish heritage. They're known for being fairly outspoken and calling "a spade, a spade" and I do think my cultural environment growing up has affected me in that regard.

 

[Wandering]

I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex.

I wonder: were those Black people tested by white people, or other Black people? I get a feeling the results would be vastly different depending on the colour of the testers.

But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type.

Very possible.

***

Oh, and

ENFJs sound like gods.

made me laugh. I live with one: wonderful human being, but not a god. He would freak out big time if someone thought of him as a god

 

[The Ü™]

I don't 100 percent know where you're getting at here, but yes, there is definitely cultural bias with the MBTI just like any other form of psychometrics -- IQ testing for example. Particularly troubling for me is how there is a literal vs. figurative dichotomy in the MBTI. I think too many people emphasize the sociological definition of "literal" instead of the more psychological definition. For example, an American says "You're biting my head off" as a way of saying "overreacting." Now I suspect that a person unfamiliar with American or English-language euphemisms would take that phrase literally due to misunderstandings.

I think the definition of "literal" vs. "figurative" should be worded in a more psychological way. In interpreting the euphemisms of different cultures, chances are that, yes, I'm going to take it literal. However, from a more internal psychological point of view, I tend to be more figurative about the world as a whole. For example, when I look at something, I prefer to take it figuratively in that I prefer looking at how it will stimulate my mind and imagine all sorts of possibilities based upon what I observe. I prefer doing this to seeing the object for what it is. I focus more on what it means, but in the subjective context...what it means to me and what imaginary possibilities the object could suggest unrelated to the external world. I don't take the world literally. I think when the question is worded "Are you inclined to take someone's words literally or figuratively?", I feel that it's such a narrow definition of literal. And so I think it should be a more universal definition of literal.

 

[miss fortune]

I come from a culture traditionally described as "white trash" This culture is quite different from the mainstream white culture.

I think I complained in my blog once that this is a culture where, if you don't do something with your hands and see what is around you for just that, you are considered lazy and a bit off- my ability to schmooze and convince people of things is even looked askance at because it's not MAKING something- it's considered dishonest work

To get out of my background culture as an N would probably be nearly impossible

 

[cafe]

I come from a culture traditionally described as "white trash" This culture is quite different from the mainstream white culture.

I think I complained in my blog once that this is a culture where, if you don't do something with your hands and see what is around you for just that, you are considered lazy and a bit off- my ability to schmooze and convince people of things is even looked askance at because it's not MAKING something- it's considered dishonest work

To get out of my background culture as an N would probably be nearly impossible

The bolded is so true! My husband has a brilliant mind and has always been hardworking, doing his best to provide for us while he was in college, and later, seminary and my family had not one ounce of respect for him until he became *drum roll* a truck driver. Unbelievable.


(sorry if this is off-topic)

 

[The Ü™]

Okay, I read the first post again. It seems there was a few things I just misunderstood. Even though I am white, I don't think I've ever been perceived as an introvert in a typical white American social group. In fact, my behavior in front of other people is quite animated and I am able be wild and goofy in contrast of the typical stereotype of a serious INTJ.

I also wouldn't be perceived as hardworking in the way American culture defines it, and what most people associate with a J. Hell, my physical surroundings are, for the most part, not even organized or in any kind of order and much of my lifestyle is physically untidy, in general. However, cognitively, I am a J much more than a P. I want my lifestyle to be predictable and controlled. I don't like unsuspected surprises. In addition, I can be extremely ambitious when there is something that interests me. But I'm just not interested in "American dream" types of things, so to the American culture, I am not hardworking and would likely be perceived as a slacker.

Usually, when I take an MBTI, I mentally think of the questions as if they are being asked from a more universal and less ethnocentric perspective.

 

[substitute]

I'm first generation born in with USA with Irish heritage. They're known for being fairly outspoken and calling "a spade, a spade" and I do think my cultural environment growing up has affected me in that regard.

I don't know... I'm skeptical... I mean, you get national and cultural stereotypes but they seldom hold true in reality. I've been to Ireland, France, Italy, Africa, Asia... and pretty much everywhere it's the same. There are flighty people, there are academics, stuffy dry people and spontaneous social people, the whole range of personalities exists in every single country on earth... I think the only thing that changes is the generally accepted modes of manifesting certain mentalities and traits, the communication methods and standards.

What I mean is that whilst doing Thing A in one country might have you perceived as one thing, it might have you perceived as an entirely different thing in another country. So people with the same mentalities and personal takes on the world might present it differently, depending on the 'audience' they've been trained to present to.

I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.

 

[Seanan]

I don't know... I'm skeptical... I mean, you get national and cultural stereotypes but they seldom hold true in reality. I've been to Ireland, France, Italy, Africa, Asia... and pretty much everywhere it's the same. There are flighty people, there are academics, stuffy dry people and spontaneous social people, the whole range of personalities exists in every single country on earth... I think the only thing that changes is the generally accepted modes of manifesting certain mentalities and traits, the communication methods and standards.

What I mean is that whilst doing Thing A in one country might have you perceived as one thing, it might have you perceived as an entirely different thing in another country. So people with the same mentalities and personal takes on the world might present it differently, depending on the 'audience' they've been trained to present to.

I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.

Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.

 

[pure_mercury]

Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.

I don't think that the "Irish people have big mouths" stereotype originated in the United States.

 

[substitute]

Good points and I agree but not wholly. Perhaps its particularly American expectations. For example Bill O'Reilly and Denise Miller had a discussion about this on O'Reilly's show. Well, he's made frequent references to his Irish mouth. Anyway, its comes up many times that people take "offense?" to the way the Irish state things.... finding them rather blunt and/or tactless. I, honestly, don't know if my propencity for that particular style is Irish or INTP actually... I'm still learning about it.

What you just said doesn't contradict my point, in fact rather demonstrates it. It's not because the Irish are inherently 'mouthy' or 'outspoken' that this Irish person is considered to be so, but because the Irish ways of presenting themselves that come across as normal in their country are ways that are remarkable and different in America.

IOW, Bill O'Reilly just said Thing A in the USA - thing A that in Ireland would've been perfectly normal and would've resulted in his character being judged/perceived in a completely different way to the result it achieved in the USA doing the same thing.

I've known a good many Irish people who are very quiet and reserved, and when I've been there and see the personalities in their correct context - set alongside other Irish people in Ireland, it becomes clear that perceptions of Irish people outside of Ireland are more the result of cultural misunderstandings than characteristics. The quality that is thought to be on display from the outsider's POV isn't the quality that's being demonstrated from the subject's POV.

If you want to get some real 'big mouth' stereotype misperceptions you ought to go to India sometime!! As a European guy amongst some Indian friends here, they came across to me as preposterously outspoken, domineering, loud, melodramatic and just plain rude. One is forced to interrupt and display behaviour that feels most unnatural and ungentlemanly to a European, just to squeeze a word in edgeways. But when I went to India and saw how they all are over there, I realized that my perception of my friends had been coloured by my view of the world through a European lens. There are certain cultural assumptions shared by most Indian people that enable them to behave that way without it being at all rude amongst themselves, assumptions not shared by the European, leading to this misperception of them being rude.

 

[niffer]

If you want to get some real 'big mouth' stereotype misperceptions you ought to go to India sometime!! As a European guy amongst some Indian friends here, they came across to me as preposterously outspoken, domineering, loud, melodramatic and just plain rude. One is forced to interrupt and display behaviour that feels most unnatural and ungentlemanly to a European, just to squeeze a word in edgeways. But when I went to India and saw how they all are over there, I realized that my perception of my friends had been coloured by my view of the world through a European lens. There are certain cultural assumptions shared by most Indian people that enable them to behave that way without it being at all rude amongst themselves, assumptions not shared by the European, leading to this misperception of them being rude.

Hm... As someone who is half Asian and half European, but one that lives in a predominantly Asian area...I find that the behaviour of most westerners really stands out. It seems really rude/coarse somehow, as if they see the world in tunnel vision, even though they don't mean it to be. Asian people are reading visual cues 24/7, and seeing all things in a room as part of a room, for example, while the typical Caucasian would just see things as individual objects, just as they strongly feel that they themselves are. Regardless of type. They just seem to be more separate from the rest of the world, somehow. Hard to describe.

I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.

I agree.

 

[substitute]

I know what you mean niffer, in fact I didn't notice that quality in myself until I travelled in Asia and spent a lot of time around Asians during the time when I was a Muslim. I think (and am told by the Asians I know) that it's been corrected to some extent in myself, but I'm still aware of how I can be insular at times.

It seems to be more the case in the English speaking West, however, and perhaps the Germanic speaking countries (Holland, Germany, Scandinavia etc) as well, whilst the Mediterranean Europeans tend to be somewhat more attuned to their external environments.

edit - I think when I've talked on here before about how I totally don't subscribe to the individualist and independent philosophies of the West but prefer one of communality and interdependence with both people and the environment in which we live - not just the natural environment but all of it - what I was trying to get at was something similar to what you're also trying to get at niffer - if anyone can thrash it out into words then between two Ne dominant types, I'm sure it can be done!

 

[pure_mercury]

I know what you mean niffer, in fact I didn't notice that quality in myself until I travelled in Asia and spent a lot of time around Asians during the time when I was a Muslim. I think (and am told by the Asians I know) that it's been corrected to some extent in myself, but I'm still aware of how I can be insular at times.

It seems to be more the case in the English speaking West, however, and perhaps the Germanic speaking countries (Holland, Germany, Scandinavia etc) as well, whilst the Mediterranean Europeans tend to be somewhat more attuned to their external environments.

edit - I think when I've talked on here before about how I totally don't subscribe to the individualist and independent philosophies of the West but prefer one of communality and interdependence with both people and the environment in which we live - not just the natural environment but all of it - what I was trying to get at was something similar to what you're also trying to get at niffer - if anyone can thrash it out into words then between two Ne dominant types, I'm sure it can be done!

Funny, I think that there is too much groupthink and not enough individualism in modern Western society. I can't stand it when people look at a group as a whole and don't acknowledge the differences between people (they are to be celebrated). Plus, societal norms cut both ways. Some behavior in Asia may be considered rude or even bizarre to North Americans, as well (businesspeople going into new markets commented on this quite a bit in the 1980s).

 

[substitute]

Funny, I think that there is too much groupthink and not enough individualism in modern Western society. I can't stand it when people look at a group as a whole and don't acknowledge the differences between people (they are to be celebrated). Plus, societal norms cut both ways. Some behavior in Asia may be considered rude or even bizarre to North Americans, as well (businesspeople going into new markets commented on this quite a bit in the 1980s).

...which is exactly what I just said in my previous posts!

Except that I think we're using different definitions of 'indivualism'... I don't mean 'being and thinking as an individual' but 'believing life is all about getting what you want, when you want it, and fulfilling your own desires without thinking too much about how it affects others; and if you're poor and suffering then it's your own fault and if you're happy and rich it's because you deserve it so well done'.

 

[pure_mercury]

...which is exactly what I just said in my previous posts!

Except that I think we're using different definitions of 'indivualism'... I don't mean 'being and thinking as an individual' but 'believing life is all about getting what you want, when you want it, and fulfilling your own desires without thinking too much about how it affects others; and if you're poor and suffering then it's your own fault and if you're happy and rich it's because you deserve it so well done'.

Kind of, but "more attuned to their external environments" sounded kind of loaded. I mean, I think the Westerners are quite concerned with their external environment, but tend to take a more subjective sort of approach, as in "Wow, I really like that castle." We are certainly not self-effacing as a culture. The people from non-North American or Western European backgrounds I know tend to be more , which is fine, too.

And for the record, I think that the "life is about getting what you want and fulfilling your desires" is not a bad attitude, as long as you're honest and respect other people's rights to do the same (or not to do the same).

 

[Ezra]

I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

What do people think?

In the book I'm reading at the moment, a mafioso has been described as the typical macho, sensual Mediterranean guy. I find it hard to believe that all Mediterraneans are Sensors, so perhaps the Intuitive types from around places like Italy and Sicily seem like Sensors based on their culture. Especially mafiosi. The mafia is what most would dub a Sensing culture, but I think Intuiters could easily slip in there.

 

[pure_mercury]

In the book I'm reading at the moment, a mafioso has been described as the typical macho, sensual Mediterranean guy. I find it hard to believe that all Mediterraneans are Sensors, so perhaps the Intuitive types from around places like Italy and Sicily seem like Sensors based on their culture. Especially mafiosi. The mafia is what most would dub a Sensing culture, but I think Intuiters could easily slip in there.

Interesting thoughts. Do you think that organized crime types would be Js, perhaps? If I were an evil ESFJ (what do you mean "if?" - brain ed.), I think that mob boss would be a good fit, actually.