[INFJ] Common INFJ issues

[Kasper]

Off Topic stuff moved. Move on already Arc.

 

[brainheart]

It's almost like she's trying too hard to be kind of down to earth and folksy. Comes off as fake. And I don't like the dolphin wallpaper at all. She just doesn't seem to communicate in a way that seems typical of most of the INFJs I know.

This is all very interesting to me, this general distaste of all things Vicky Jo. Way back I was contemplating INFJ for myself. I went to her site, watched her, read the whole dang thing and ran the other way. She is about as different from me as you can get. But the INFP dude wasn't much like me, either. VJ would ask me to do that embracing maneuver or whatever it was (It's been awhile since I've watched the video) and I would just roll my eyes at her and say no.

(I like the enneagram better. 4w5 fits me to a tee. MBTI gets me muddled, all the cognitive functions and what not, so I gave it an INFP and I've left it at that.)

 

[garbage]

I like how INFJ has the longest "common issues" thread


anyway, since we're talking issues:

• When someone needs help, I end up pausing whatever it is that I'm doing and ensuring that that person's good to go.
  
  e.g. a stranger had walked into our complex on campus and desperately needed to find someone--who used to be in our complex and no longer was. So, I dug out the phone directory on the computer. No luck. I knew that the target taught a class and so he'd be somewhere at a specific time, so I printed out the course listings. No luck. I waited patiently as the stranger tried calling a few people. No luck. And so on and so forth until we finally got the issue resolved.
  
  Then I went back to work.
  
  Or, someone will describe something they're working on. My instinctual response? "Oh, yeah, let me know if you need help with that. ... wait, what did I just say? Dammit "
  
  It's like a damn reflex. Nowadays, I sometimes have to consciously stop and think, "It's their responsibility," lest my reflexes kick in to the degree that I personally end up suffering.
  
  
• I'm pretty even-tempered and calm, rarely emotional. I'm not often hostile. Though I sometimes get a bit hostile when "stupid" ideas are presented, I'm quite often hostile when someone else is hostile or mean first--even if it's not directed at me. I guess my rule seems to be: You bite someone, and I won't hesitate to bite you.
• Responsibility. I feel a huge pull toward acquiring it and/or viewing it as mine.

Soo.. does this resonate with anyone? Do you think it's type-related?

 

[Aquarelle]

I like how INFJ has the longest "common issues" thread


anyway, since we're talking issues:

• When someone needs help, I end up pausing whatever it is that I'm doing and ensuring that that person's good to go.
  
  e.g. a stranger had walked into our complex on campus and desperately needed to find someone--who used to be in our complex and no longer was. So, I dug out the phone directory on the computer. No luck. I knew that the target taught a class and so he'd be somewhere at a specific time, so I printed out the course listings. No luck. I waited patiently as the stranger tried calling a few people. No luck. And so on and so forth until we finally got the issue resolved.
  
  Then I went back to work.
  
  It's like a damn reflex. Nowadays, I sometimes have to consciously stop and think, "It's their responsibility," lest my reflexes kick in to the degree that I personally end up suffering.
  
  
• I'm pretty even-tempered and calm, rarely emotional. I'm not often hostile. Though I sometimes get a bit hostile when "stupid" ideas are presented, I'm quite often hostile when someone else is hostile or mean first--even if it's not directed at me. I guess my rule seems to be: You bite someone, and I won't hesitate to bite you.

Soo.. does this resonate with anyone? Do you think it's type-related?

I can very much relate to both of those points.

 

[saru]

I like how INFJ has the longest "common issues" thread


anyway, since we're talking issues:

• When someone needs help, I end up pausing whatever it is that I'm doing and ensuring that that person's good to go.
  
  e.g. a stranger had walked into our complex on campus and desperately needed to find someone--who used to be in our complex and no longer was. So, I dug out the phone directory on the computer. No luck. I knew that the target taught a class and so he'd be somewhere at a specific time, so I printed out the course listings. No luck. I waited patiently as the stranger tried calling a few people. No luck. And so on and so forth until we finally got the issue resolved.
  
  Then I went back to work.
  
  Or, someone will describe something they're working on. My instinctual response? "Oh, yeah, let me know if you need help with that. ... wait, what did I just say? Dammit "
  
  It's like a damn reflex. Nowadays, I sometimes have to consciously stop and think, "It's their responsibility," lest my reflexes kick in to the degree that I personally end up suffering.
  
  
• I'm pretty even-tempered and calm, rarely emotional. I'm not often hostile. Though I sometimes get a bit hostile when "stupid" ideas are presented, I'm quite often hostile when someone else is hostile or mean first--even if it's not directed at me. I guess my rule seems to be: You bite someone, and I won't hesitate to bite you.
• Responsibility. I feel a huge pull toward acquiring it and/or viewing it as mine.

Soo.. does this resonate with anyone? Do you think it's type-related?

Honestly, this is a bit strange. the first one sounds very ENFJ, while the second one is sorta INFJ.


I myself was teetering between ENFJ and INFJ for the longest time, I kept on getting INFJ on the tests, but I was almost more loud than other INFJs. But this cemented it in completely, I fit everything on that first page. So provided those are all true to other iNFJs, then I'm infj.

 

[Resonance]

I've recently decided I'm INFJ so I'm gonna try to contextualize these according to my own life/perceptions if that's OK.

Misunderstandings:
1)Delayed processing time - INFJs often seem to be basing their responses to the person in question on the last interaction they had with them, more often than the current one. They prefer to have time to think things over, which is why it's not a great idea to try to push an INFJ into making a decision before they feel they have had enough time to mull everything that has been brought up.

This is one reason I'd previously considered myself a P. I do indeed have an annoying habit of hearing everything people say in the context of something they have previously said; for example, my mom was talking about how being a parking inspector looked like kind of a fun job because you're outside and get plenty of exercise, and I immediately assumed she was judging me for not getting enough sun (which she had done earlier that week, but totally didn't mean it that way).

2) Need for resolution - What may look to some like being nitpicky or unforgiving or even holding onto the past often has more to do with their need to get everything put away in it's proper place before closing the chapter on it. Without doing so, it keeps coming up again and again.

Sometimes, I distance myself from people who aren't willing to come back to some fight we had in the past, because I can't stop thinking about it when I'm with them.

3) Considering every hobby, person or idea expressed as an extension of themselves - INFJs tend to be very self-protective, and rarely bring something up unless they have already implemented it into their main framework of thought or affection. Therefore when any of these things are dismissed or mocked, they will feel it as a personal rejection, unlike someone who tends to verbalize new ideas out loud. Similarly, INFJs will sometimes be confused by someone who seemed committed to a thought or a plan, only to abandon it later.

Nothing's more frustrating XD again, coming back to my mom, sometimes we'll decide to go to see a movie and then she'll decide she doesn't feel like it an hour or two ahead of time and just cancel I can understand if it happened once in a while but we hardly ever get a chance to do things together because of this!

I'm relatively open to being wrong, though, I think. If someone puts forth a point that I'm willing to admit I hadn't considered, of course I'll have to re-assess.

4) Dislike of emotional surprises - this leads INFJs to sometimes inconvenience others in their effort to know what to expect. I'm fine with a change of plans, but find it harder to quickly adjust to someone's sudden annoyance, to a change in something I had really been hoping for/counting on etc. Makes me more likely to try to be the one to take on any inconvenience because that is more predictable. I also tend to need to watch a situation for awhile (either social or skillwise) before I am comfortable jumping in. I think with maturity we can become less focussed on their own reactions and feelings and also realize that someone else being upset is not the very worst that can happen. Sometimes avoiding that happening actually creates more conflict.

Hm. I do this for other people as well - when my mom flakes out on my brother or sister, I try to pick up the slack. Of course, then she starts to take advantage of that... I'm not sure where this will lead. You're right that it has caused conflict in the past, which I wasn't expecting.

Observing 'til you're comfortable - sometimes. I do tend to read a lot of posts before participating (the whole thread, if it's short!) but on the other hand, I often don't want to pollute my own viewpoint with those of others before I post it because I will definitely lose track. Hence what I'm doing right now In social situations, or, like, with a video game and so on, I do prefer to watch someone else to figure out how it works before I start developing the skill or introducing myself. Model before experience, sort of thing. Unless, of course, the 'point' of the game is to start and figure it out on your own. :s

5) Hold those close to them to a higher degree of accountability than those that are less important to them - This may seem judgemental and unfair, but because those close to them are an extension of their own self, integrity is paramount to them and they choose to invest heavily in a few close relationships, they expect more of those people than they do of casual acquaintance friends. When they feel you are worth risking conflict with and you start hearing the negatives about yourself as well as the positives, you're in!

eheheh... <.< not everyone appreciates that... "How come you're not this critical of anyone else???" ~ direct quote

"I am... I just don't care about them as much as you."

Of course, online is a different story...

Actually, sometimes I take on 'grasshoppers' to try and 'straighten them out'. I can be really critical of those too, even if I'm not emotionally committed to them.

6) Easily embarrassed and quite private - May mean that they take awhile before talking about something that is painful to them. This doesn't mean they don't care about the support you could give them. It's just that they need to get it thought out in a framework and untangled before they are ready to be more open. I tend to talk about it more after I think I'm going to be alright.

Unfortunately true. My dad can instantly tell when something's up but I can never seem to tell him what it is until I've got it figured out. I've been trying to express things at an earlier stage with him lately, and it just comes out all useless and makes me feel even more inadequate because I know he wants to help and I can't seem to give him what he needs in order to do that.

7) Long gaps in correspondance or putting off a job that matters a lot - This seems to be linked to wanting to do an excellent job of it and feeling overwhelmed by the amount of time or effort or organization required. The longer it is put off, the worse we feel. As a result, it is usually my most valued friends that I correspond with least. Usually I try to overcome this by phoning them, catching up on the bulk of it, and then writing the rest.

It is really tough. I have trouble buying presents for people because I want it to be something really heartfelt and meaningful. To me, a box of chocolates says "I don't really know you so here's a generic token." So quite often I end up missing the occasion entirely. This was a major source of strife between me and my aunt.

Tendancies:
8) Not creating clear enough boundaries for people around them - there's a tendancy to respond to those who are most actively demanding attention, especially when younger. Also the need to be sure that they've looked at everything from all angles, made a correct assessment of all possible motivations and exhausted what they can do to impact the situation before really drawing a hard and fast line. I think this improves with age.

Yep, 'calling in the mods' is really tough since I always think there's the possibility of reconciliation. I used to do it a lot when I was little (think grades 1-2) because I didn't have any other tools, but nowadays there's just too much to try.

My therapist was telling me this exact thing, actually. I think and act like I don't have boundaries, but I actually do have some very clear emotional ones which I should externalize instead of just keeping quiet and coping every time they're crossed.

9) Find it difficult to assess when is the time to make a Big Deal out of something - Their reaction to something really depends on the other person's response. They may find it easy to forgive something or deal with it on their own if the person recognizes that they are making a concession. If the person trivializes or continues on with more of the same behaviour, it's the last straw (in a very big load of straws!) and the other examples of where they have seen the same behaviour will be brought up.

oof. Too many 'yesses' to just pick one as an example. I only end up in big fights with people over things that are really important to them, even if they are only minor grievances for me :s

10) Hate being not in control of their emotions, yet sometimes underestimate how strong those emotions are till they are swamped by them. - (Note, not a good time for Ts to talk about how over-sensitive and emotional they are, as they despise being that way and are already terribly embarrassed).

Not sure about this. Especially since I'm nearly T anyway, I'll leave it alone.

11) Get less receptive to advice if the other person tries to skip over the venting that they need to do in order to bleed off excess emotion or when they feel the person hasn't taken enough time to understand the situation. Often their solutions are gained primarily from discussion with someone, not from getting the answers from someone.

The latter is certainly frustrating for me. As for skipping the venting, I really try to avoid venting anyway, and when I do, it's in a very short, explosive burst that doesn't really leave room for interjection. This is due to a book I was given in my teen years and I find it fairly effective.

12) Sometimes have a hard time recognizing when they need to pull back or give less so that they can continue doing so cheerfully. This seems to be the case especially with Ts.

I do sometimes feel like I'm being too nasty even though I'm genuinely trying to be nice if this is what the problem is then I guess I have some work to do.

My own (maybe INFJ related) problems

13) Tendancy to be poor with paperwork, locating items quickly under pressure - I've largely solved this by having a big lanyard for my keys, carrying a decent sized purse and having a file folder that things go into immediately.

Kinda. I got good at searching for things because my entire family has ADHD-PI (including myself, of course)

14) Am a responder more than an initiator - as a result I've missed out on many good friendships. I've learned that people respond much more warmly when you go out on a limb and make the first move. I've been working to actively improve this.

Yup. It's hard but worth it! Seriously, I've started initiating like once a month at most, but it makes people so happy :3

15) Not good at paying attention to detail (in my environment, and in instructions) - This is why I try to stock a lot of sensors in my life. They are happy to fill in my gaps and give me reminders when needed. They also tend to think in terms of smaller practical details that must be attented to.

I tend to remember details that seem salient to me at the time, but then I get into the actual process and totally miss something they said was important. I have trouble remembering a set of instructions though, which is why I try to abstract it into 'sensical' steps.

16) My intimidation by Te, and some oversensitivity leads me to sometimes not express my opinions when I should - working on this one. Thinking it out ahead of time helps.

It certainly does. I've gotten to be able to mirror it in online debates - face to face is a little tougher, though.

lol. a lot of people at INTJf sight-type me as INTJ because I come across as very Te-heavy to them. Of course the exceptions quickly diverge from the main thread into rep comments and PMs, so they don't see how much different it is

17) Over-indulgent when under stress - eat bad food and buy make-up/magazines that I don't need - Am working to replace these responses with exercise, drinking water etc.

Fancier coffee and fast food, fa sho. Drinking water is a good start. Exercise seems out of reach for me though >.> Going outside and running around the block to help concentrate is about the limit.

18) Put off jobs that are unpleasant or that I am not sure how to do - I'm sure this isn't totally type related, but I think avoidance is a greater tendancy with INFJs than Te driven people. Sometimes Ni and Ti create a loop that doesn't work well.

Hah. Especially the 'not sure how to do' part. For some reason I'm really scared of calling one department if I don't know whether that department can handle my request - even though they can usually just redirect me to someone who can. -.-' Once I know where to call, it's not hard at all.

19) Stubborn - I tend to need a lot of convincing with a new idea before I will adopt it, because it involves changing the whole structure over again.

I'm sure others think this of me more than I think it of myself

20) Promising more than I can actually deliver - I want so badly to take care of everything that sometimes I overestimate what I am able to do. I've learned as a teacher to promise less and make sure I actually do it every time.

Yup, and it's not even about overestimating what I'm able to do - but rather, overestimating my ability to remember it, schedule it, and get it done. If the schedule is set ahead of time (and I don't accidentally double-book), it's usually not too bad.

21) Lazy about figuring out technological stuff or leave it to others - This one probably isn't INFJ related. I usually wish that some nice ENTP or ESTP is around to give me the Cliff's Notes on something new. While I am very curious about some things, I am not interested in discovering something for myself because I enjoy the process.

This is another thing which convinced me to switch from NTP. My cell phone isn't loaded with apps, and I only put something new on it when I feel like I need it (and sometimes, not even then, cause I can't be bothered to try all of the options and pick the best one.) This makes me feel a bit like a poseur geek but the stuff I do know, I'm top-notch. So I've got that going for me I do like to explore things, but it's usually when I have a vague idea that I'm looking for something in particular, like figuring out all the page layout settings in Word when I'm trying to get the paragraphs spaced a certain way. I much prefer to have, for example, an IRC client recommended to me than go hunting for one or code it myself.

22) Sometimes my very closest friends may feel that I disagree with them but don't express it. That is occasionally true, but if it is not a huge issue of integrity, I'm not sure how expressing it would be helpful. And yet, I don't think that I have to change my mind about it either, as long as I still like and respect them and am not being passive-aggressive. I think INFPs are much better friends in this respect.

I do tend to express a disagreement if
1) it's not relevant to our relationship, and
2) it's something I know fairly well,
because that's what's expected in my circles. Things like someone bullshitting about genetics, I don't mind correcting them. But it's a very...give and take sort of thing. I'd rather correct them in a way that allows them to keep their dignity... e.g. "well, I think you mean that they aren't self-sustaining rather than that they aren't alive" - so they can say 'yes, that's what I meant, thanks.' and continue on, rather than getting into a fight about it.

I'm wondering if any of these traits are influences by enneagram (1w2 so/sx) or if they fit with other INFJ's experiences (or those of other types with INFJs). Oh yeah - and did I mention long-windedness? ...

Who knows!!!

 

[Crescent Fresh]

What type were you before, Resonance?

 

[Resonance]

What type were you before, Resonance?

XNTP? idk

 

[EJCC]

Question for INFJs and those who know them: Do they have an unsympathetic streak, with people they're close to? I ask because my INFJ mom has a tendency (and has had it probably since I was a preteen) to be unsympathetic and evasive when I try to express frustration or anger or any emotion that would cause tears.

(Common interaction when I was a kid:
Mom: Maybe we shouldn't talk about this anymore. You'll just get more upset.
Me: Why can't I get upset??? I have a right to be upset!)

I had a moment with her today, too -- which is the inspiration for this post. Here's some background: I've been living with my INTJ aunt (my mom's sister), in a bigger city, so I can have access to a particular internship and a particular volunteer position -- but in exchange, I've had to deal with all of my aunt's little quirks, that have started to drive me crazy, including, but not limited to, getting texts early in the morning from her that say things like "I woke up this morning to find several of your things on the kitchen counter and some dishes in the sink. When I wake up in the morning, I expect to find things the way I left them. I know you'll do better next time." Which, in my opinion, is worthy of complaining about. But I had felt guilty about complaining, because my aunt has been housing me and I owe her a huge debt of gratitude for that -- plus, she's family, and plus, I don't want to be a bad person. So, all this resentment has been building and building, and when my mom came to visit me, we had this interaction (after I complained a little, only to find my mom defending my aunt):

Me: I know it makes you uncomfortable when I complain to you about Aunt INTJ, but I feel like I have to let it out somehow; I've been keeping it bottled up and the resentment just keeps building.
Mom (trying to comfort me): Just remember the Serenity Prayer -- accept the things you cannot change. It's just the way she is.
Me (cranky): Yes, I know. But all I want is affirmation! I want to know that there's cause for my frustration, and that what I'm feeling is valid. And that sort of thought process, that it's "just the way she is", makes me feel invalidated.
Mom: EJCC. It's not about validation.

I don't really remember what was said after that.

10 minutes after this conversation ended, she went up to me again to tell me to skype/call my dad, because "he would be more sympathetic" -- and that part of the reason why she wasn't as sympathetic was because she had been afraid that she'd get "caught in the middle" between me and my aunt, and that she'd "have to take sides". Which struck me as bizarre because it didn't strike me as that sort of situation at all. My aunt isn't mad at me. I haven't been driving her nuts -- I know that for a fact. And if she didn't want to take sides, why wasn't she acknowledging my feelings while at the same time defending my aunt, instead of just defending my aunt? It seems so non-Ni/Fe (from an uneducated perspective), because I guess I thought that Fe types were all about validation.

 

[SilkRoad]

Just my two cents, EJCC:

I would say that I do have an unsympathetic streak but it comes out mainly when I'm suffering from compassion fatigue. Like if someone has complained a lot about the same thing, there's nothing I can do about it and they're just venting or expecting me to solve a problem for them. It doesn't sound so much like you've been doing that though, so I don't know...

I think what might actually be more noteworthy is that your mom was obviously very anxious to ensure that she remained "fair". I know what you mean about validation, I like to provide it where possible. Though I also REALLY don't want it to slip over into "enabling"...but I don't see this as that kind of situation. But here I think it had a lot to do with fairness. I mean, it may have not been what you needed to hear, but she didn't INvalidate your feelings, I don't think. I can only imagine that she felt a bit caught because her relationship to both you and your aunt is about the closest relationship possible.

I find that even when I'm angry and upset and criticising someone, unless the anger and upset are EXTREME, I always have to remain fair and qualify things to a certain extent. For example, I could say something like: "He hurt my feelings so badly, I was pretty devastated by the whole thing. He's so inconsiderate and careless of the feelings of others. Then when he tried to get in touch, I got even angrier. ...But, to be fair, whatever he said to me then, I would have got angry. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't deliberate cruelty, he's just really insecure, and it's sad." Or: "This woman is totally sucking me dry, can't she realize I'm not her emotional crutch? ...It's hard though, I know she comes from a really difficult background, so some of this behaviour is almost inevitable." I hate to be unfair, I always want to acknowledge the battles that others are fighting, and I feel guilty if I don't.

I don't know if that really helps, but it was what came to mind when I read your post.

By the way, from your description, your aunt sounds a lot like a really difficult woman I lived with for a while a few years ago...argh!

 

[Fidelia]

Is she under stress? Under those circumstances, the main time I would get a little "suck it up, buttercup" esque with those close to me is if I'm at the end of my string already. Detaching becomes a form of self-preservation or else you'll just break completely. Even so, I think I would probably be smitten with guilt after the fact, especially since you're a reasonable person and not someone constantly bringing up unreasonable frustrations or complaints. Could be her shadow self?

The second possibility I thought of is that both you and the INTJ are Ts. Your mum is an F. Therefore, she may end up reading the situation as being more emotionally charged than it is (and consequently she wants to stay away from "taking sides").

Do you think that your mum agrees with your aunt's complaints (eg text messages), even if she may not agree with the way the message was delivered and therefore doesn't want to discount them, even though she would like to be supportive of you?

Just throwing out some possibilities...

Do you know your mum's e type?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Question for INFJs and those who know them: Do they have an unsympathetic streak, with people they're close to? I ask because my INFJ mom has a tendency (and has had it probably since I was a preteen) to be unsympathetic and evasive when I try to express frustration or anger or any emotion that would cause tears.

Fi vs Fe and their manifestations. Whenever she gets uncomfortable you've got to Te it to the max so you can explain in external and objective terms what you would like and why.

 

[Fidelia]

You also seem pretty capable to handle things EJCC, so your mum may not even understand how much you need her to listen to you. You aren't likely to respond in some of the ways that would be normal distress signals for an INFJ, so perhaps she just doesn't realize how frustrated you are and that it would be really useful to be able to discuss it. I agree with Jim that you will probably have to explain what it is that you need from her.

 

[SilkRoad]

I agree that this could also be the reaction of an INFJ under a great deal of stress and worried that if she has to hear more about the situation, she's going to freak out and end up making the situation worse and also end up feeling terrible because of that.

 

[21%]

Fidelia said it very well. The third point about how your mom might agree with your aunt was what I thought of initially when I read your post.

Another thing could be that if your mom is the peaceful type, she might not deal well with displays of negative emotions. I can deal with sadness, but I get highly stressed out when someone is openly angry (especially over something I think isn't worth getting upset about) My normal response would be "It's not that big of a deal. Don't let it bother you" (Because I can't agree with you as I normally would when I'm empathizing so I really don't know what to say)

Or, another possibility is that your aunt has vented to your mom about you leaving things out, so now she is really caught in the middle.

 

[EJCC]

Is she under stress? Under those circumstances, the main time I would get a little "suck it up, buttercup" esque with those close to me is if I'm at the end of my string already. Detaching becomes a form of self-preservation or else you'll just break completely. Even so, I think I would probably be smitten with guilt after the fact, especially since you're a reasonable person and not someone constantly bringing up unreasonable frustrations or complaints. Could be her shadow self?

The second possibility I thought of is that both you and the INTJ are Ts. Your mum is an F. Therefore, she may end up reading the situation as being more emotionally charged than it is (and consequently she wants to stay away from "taking sides").

Do you think that your mum agrees with your aunt's complaints (eg text messages), even if she may not agree with the way the message was delivered and therefore doesn't want to discount them, even though she would like to be supportive of you?

Just throwing out some possibilities...

Do you know your mum's e type?

I made a thread about it a while ago, and after re-reading it, I think she's a 1w9 -- because although she has a lot of the same 1-esque repression going on, I don't think she feels the need to be "helpful" all the time, like I do, although she is (obviously) so focused on harmony, which might be a 9 wing?

I don't think she's ever apologized to me for detaching in situations like that; she has apologized in situations when she actually did have to play peacemaker between me and someone else, and when her detachment really frustrated me as a result ("Why can't you just say what you think???!?"), but she hasn't ever apologized for telling me to "stop working (my)self up", when I'm emotional. Meaning, she doesn't see it as a bad way to react, I guess.

Regarding the bolded: I doubt that's the case now, but I relate to that a whole lot regarding interactions between me, her, and my dad. My dad and I have gotten into discussions before that have made my mom uncomfortable enough to leave the room, even though neither my dad nor I were particularly upset by what we were talking about.

I agree that this could also be the reaction of an INFJ under a great deal of stress and worried that if she has to hear more about the situation, she's going to freak out and end up making the situation worse and also end up feeling terrible because of that.

She can definitely be like this. And her possibly being 1w9 could accentuate that.

Another thing could be that if your mom is the peaceful type, she might not deal well with displays of negative emotions. I can deal with sadness, but I get highly stressed out when someone is openly angry (especially over something I think isn't worth getting upset about) My normal response would be "It's not that big of a deal. Don't let it bother you" (Because I can't agree with you as I normally would when I'm empathizing so I really don't know what to say)

I think it's this. Because honestly, I can't think of a single time in my preteen-to-adult life when I've cried about something and my mom has been soothing and hugged me and gone "It's okay, just let it out" -- although I have definitely hugged her when she cried. But she cried about a family tragedy, and I've cried for the same reason any ESTJ would cry, i.e. frustration. 99% of my crying is frustrated crying. And if you're right, and she can't relate to it, then no wonder she hasn't been empathetic!

I'm still confused by it, though... mostly because in her place, I would at least say "I know how you feel, that sucks, I've had to deal with that before and I hated it" before continuing on to the problem-solving phase, instead of skipping the affirmation part. But if you guys are right about the "taking sides" comment, maybe she felt like any sort of affirmation would be taking sides, so she couldn't do anything except play devil's advocate. But that doesn't explain my past experience with her. Hmm.

 

[Fidelia]

No, it doesn't totally explain it to me either. I think if I truly thought you were in the wrong, I would tactfully try to reframe your aunt's POV but still try to offer some comfort. That's why I wonder if she's under stress.

 

[sciski]

because I guess I thought that Fe types were all about validation.

Unfortunately, no. Fe is about helping the person to feel better (which essentially invalidates the person who doesn't feel better).
Fi is all about validation.

I admin an INFP forum and they taught me about validation--I hadn't realised how much invalidation I actually did until I read a site about it. The site is here (http://eqi.org/invalid.htm#Introduction) and contains lots of examples. Lots of those examples of invalidation are Fe-based... people trying to influence each other's moods and 'coach' other people to feel a certain way, at the expense of actually just listening to how the person is feeling. Invalidation can be well-intentioned, even if it's entirely inappropriate, and I tend to think that's how a lot of INFJs mean it.

If it helps, INFJs also invalidate themselves a helluva lot, which is probably why they don't realise the impact when they're doing it to others.

I'm a little surprised that your mother didn't respond to your statement that validation was what you needed. It's possible that she's so stuck in 'coaching' mode--as you are her daughter, therefore she is responsible for bringing you up--that she hasn't allowed her compassion (Fe) to surface. She's so busy trying to teach you how to cope that she hasn't acknowledged your feelings about the issue. It's also possible that she doesn't realise just how important it is to be validated.

Not sure how to break through this, except possibly just to ask your mother, "Please, I just really need you to listen to how I feel and acknowledge it. That's all. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but to understand where I'm coming from. That would really help me get over it and move on." Then she won't be enabling you. The enabling factor is really important, as SilkRoad mentioned--one of the reasons I get 'hard' on people is because to just quietly listen to their problems and validate them means I'm leaving them in the same hole as I found them in, and that's just unbearable, but if staying in the hole a little longer is what is needed to get them to climb out, I can put up with it. So perhaps her knowing that the simple act of validation will help you to move on will help her over that 'enabling' hurdle.

Also, for the times she does listen and validate you, thank her and say how much it has helped, and the ways it has helped. If she starts seeing 'validating' as an effective tool in the 'helping people feel better' arsenal, she's more likely to use it in future.

Edit: Damn, I realised as I read over this that I went straight into coaching mode too. Sorry.

 

[EJCC]

Unfortunately, no. Fe is about helping the person to feel better (which essentially invalidates the person who doesn't feel better).
Fi is all about validation.

I admin an INFP forum and they taught me about validation--I hadn't realised how much invalidation I actually did until I read a site about it. The site is here (http://eqi.org/invalid.htm#Introduction) and contains lots of examples. Lots of those examples of invalidation are Fe-based... people trying to influence each other's moods and 'coach' other people to feel a certain way, at the expense of actually just listening to how the person is feeling. Invalidation can be well-intentioned, even if it's entirely inappropriate, and I tend to think that's how a lot of INFJs mean it.

If it helps, INFJs also invalidate themselves a helluva lot, which is probably why they don't realise the impact when they're doing it to others.

Wow. That site is amazing. It really puts things in perspective... and it shows just how much invalidating people do on a daily basis. The thing about sitting in the hallway to cry until you calm down? Nobody ever told me to do that but I make myself do that sometimes. I guess validation is something that doesn't come naturally to people -- even INFJs -- and so it requires some practice.

I'm a little surprised that your mother didn't respond to your statement that validation was what you needed. It's possible that she's so stuck in 'coaching' mode--as you are her daughter, therefore she is responsible for bringing you up--that she hasn't allowed her compassion (Fe) to surface. She's so busy trying to teach you how to cope that she hasn't acknowledged your feelings about the issue. It's also possible that she doesn't realise just how important it is to be validated.

That all sounds right. Could it also, in addition to that, be that she detaches herself while coaching as a self-protection mechanism, so she doesn't get really emotional just by seeing me being emotional? She does have a strong mother-lion tendency, so maybe she feels like she has to rein herself in whenever I'm upset?

Not sure how to break through this, except possibly just to ask your mother, "Please, I just really need you to listen to how I feel and acknowledge it. That's all. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but to understand where I'm coming from. That would really help me get over it and move on." Then she won't be enabling you. The enabling factor is really important, as SilkRoad mentioned--one of the reasons I get 'hard' on people is because to just quietly listen to their problems and validate them means I'm leaving them in the same hole as I found them in, and that's just unbearable, but if staying in the hole a little longer is what is needed to get them to climb out, I can put up with it. So perhaps her knowing that the simple act of validation will help you to move on will help her over that 'enabling' hurdle.

That's understandable; actually, ironically enough, my mom will often ask me and/or my dad to listen and be sympathetic when she vents about a situation, instead of immediately giving advice. So I guess I should do the same thing, and say "All I want is to know that what I'm feeling is justified"?

Also, for the times she does listen and validate you, thank her and say how much it has helped, and the ways it has helped. If she starts seeing 'validating' as an effective tool in the 'helping people feel better' arsenal, she's more likely to use it in future.

Smart! Hopefully I'll be able to remember that.

Edit: Damn, I realised as I read over this that I went straight into coaching mode too. Sorry.

Not a problem at all! My frustration at the situation is gone, at present, and therefore my feelings aren't a current issue. Preparing for the next time I'm in a similar situation with my mom requires this brainstorming and conversation. You have been a great help.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=2036]sciski[/MENTION]: that was a fabulous post and a great link. Thanks for sharing that.

Just a little thought extra ...

That's understandable; actually, ironically enough, my mom will often ask me and/or my dad to listen and be sympathetic when she vents about a situation, instead of immediately giving advice. So I guess I should do the same thing, and say "All I want is to know that what I'm feeling is justified"?

This is roughly how I reflect on this.

Fe vantage point is "I feel like this, am I wrong?"

Fi vantage point is, "I feel like this, am I right?" That's where your word "justified" comes into play. I would just leave that word out, and share with her that you need to vent in order to work through your own emotional frustration. Sometimes, you just need someone to say back to you, "Ya, that person is a big meanie and you are ok, I think you are the best!" +giant hug!!!

Fi can generally temper itself as long as no one tries to deny that emotions have a legitimacy just by virtue of their existence. Little messengers, they are.

That post above says it all though, really. Very nice.