[INFJ] Common INFJ issues

[Fidelia]

Regarding the first - No, I don't think people necessarily induce Fe in me. I mean, Fe is being aware of how everyone is getting along in the current situation and how much effort there is on each person's part to adjust to each other and make the experience as positive as possible for everyone involved. It also is aware of who sticks out and who doesn't (whether it is mood, awkward behaviour, admireable characteristics, whatever). It assesses all of the interconnections and relationships between people (or the ideas they are attached to) that may be relevent to be aware of when trying to interact with them. It's not something that I choose to do, it just is.

I suppose there's all sorts of ways that information can be used positively or negatively. If I perceive that someone is making an effort to adjust to me (or those I care about), assist or cheer me, show consideration for what matters to me etc then I will probably cut them way extra slack and also feel a closer bond to them because they have deposited something in their emotional bank account with me that is accruing interest. It also means they have something to draw from and if they get overdrawn from time to time, I'll probably make up the difference.

Depending on how close I am to the person and how often they make deposits, the amount I'm good for covering may be quite different. That's why it may seem to some that I make assumptions/am judgemental about someone, say like what happened earlier in this thread. If I don't have much history or the history I do have with the person is negative, they are making withdrawals when there is no money and no potential for overdraft and it feels like a demand or assumption to cover it, rather than a request (hence INFJs appearing picky to those people about how they are approached). It is also why I tend to be too lenient if I have extensive history with someone or if I feel like I understand why they haven't made any recent deposits.

2) Can you give an example of how you would adjust to something with Te? Think of the kind of run-in that might be common with you and an INFJ.

 

[Fidelia]

Good post, Halla - I need to address it in more detail when I can.

 

[Lightyear]

1)Fe replenishment-Do you feel as though other Fe users can induce Fe in you and that you in turn can induce Fe in them? Thus by being with one another you increase that feeling of mutual caring??? I know that Fi users can have this effect on each other. Satine called it nudging, I call it glowing, udog described it as an aura of sorts.. I make ISTJs glow back at me...

Orobas, I don't really understand the "nudging" concept, what happens there exactly? Also how can you make an ISTJ glow back at you, even though this type is not a major Fi user like you?

 

[sculpting]

2) Can you give an example of how you would adjust to something with Te? Think of the kind of run-in that might be common with you and an INFJ.

(Sorry, I think out loud all the time)

So I dont fight with INFJs in anyway at all. We sort of co-exist? We are buddies watching the craziness of the world go by? Every now and then we go "Did you see that crap?" My closest INFJ friend-an INFJ guy buddy thinks I am very tough and kick ass-because we dont do Fi-Fe, more Ti-Te I think...If I disagree with him, I typically tell him he is acting like a dumbass...then he laughs. He gives me very good guy advice and says my choices in the past have been idiotic and ridiculous. INFJs always call me on Ne bullshit...

With my INTJ friend though, it is very easy to describe Te adjusting. He complains about X being annoying. I recognize it makes him unhappy, I feel his unhappiness internally and want to make him happy so that I feel happy, thus I develop Te solution to the issue. I do it because we have an Fi connection. We dont talk about emotions hardly at all-but the underlying presence of the emotive connection is what allows me to mirror his unhappiness-which motivates my willingness to implement a Te change.

There was something bothering him-dust or allergens at my condo. I rescreened the doors, had the ducts cleaned, shaved the dogs, threw away old blankets and got new ones, locked the dogs up at night as to not spread more dust and finished installation of the flooring upstairs as it had been a dust source. I also completed fixing an old patched spot in the ceiling as I think it was dusty as well. I also relandscaped the back yard as there was dust everywhere-turned it into a garden, mulched it, put down cedar shavings. Normally I dont give a crap about this stuff and do it as I have time. But he mentions he is unhappy, so I resolve the issue-I do it as I dont really have a strong opinion, and I seek to make him happy. Maybe Fi bends and Te implements? Till you hit an Fi value of course...then we have to talk about it.

weird thing about 21%'s description...to me the INTJ is part of my Fi-like he is part of me. Same thing with my kids or others I care deeply for-like they are with me always, so everything I do is motivated by maintaining that internal feeling of happiness for them, but to make them happy I do Te things.

sorry, I dont feel as though I answered your question the right way...

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Plus, I need to see if anyone burned me in effigy during my hiatus.

Well I did spend a good chunk of this past weekend burning sock puppets in effigy; but that was really more about Shari Lewis and her puppet Lambchop, and not being able to get ‘the song that never ends’ out of my head.

Do you think Fi in real life is very private and so you often do not get into the same kinds of clashes as easily? On here, interactions are sped up and intensified, topics are explored that you normally wouldn't except with those very close etc. I know that a lot of INFPs avoid conflict in real life. Yet I don't see that dynamic in the forum nearly as much. I wonder why that is...

I know that one of the reasons online discussion works so well for me is it *seems* like Ti is closer to the surface when no one is actually around me. That’s kind of where my comment came from, the assumption that maybe it was like that for Fi users as well- that maybe it’s voice is more clearly heard because there are no people around.

And about the difference about how they handle conflict- maybe it’s because their Fe is weaker? It may not be their stronger F attitude, but they certainly have enough to get along with people when they walk out their front door everyday. And maybe online interaction challenges the need for it (whereas actually facing a person, or hearing a real voice on a phone is enough to sort of activate the Fe)? I really don’t know, I’m just throwing out theories here.

Misunderstandings:
1)Delayed processing time - INFJs often seem to be basing their responses to the person in question on the last interaction they had with them, more often than the current one.

This can be really problematic in two ways:
(a) If your last experience with a person was negative, and they have improved since then, you will be prone to judging them at your lowest expectation, and they might be offended, or get their feelings hurt.

I’m gonna add that it isn’t really so much our last single experience of a person that sticks with us as it is every past experience of a person. If someone has been awesome for the last 99 out of 100 of my experiences of them- yet the very last experience of them was negative- then the very last experience of them isn’t going to influence my attitude toward them very much.

(b) If their last experience with you was positive, and they have turned into a douchebag since then, you might get burned by their treachery as you will likely not be observing their mannerisms, details of their actions, etc., because in your book they "passed the test" the last go around...

This has actually burned me more than a couple of times. I’ve kept a few people around longer than I should have, on account of giving them credit for who they’d been in the past.

(1) (continued...) They prefer to have time to think things over, which is why it's not a great idea to try to push an INFJ into making a decision before they feel they have had enough time to mull everything that has been brought up.

My wifey is like this, and it is not an issue for, since I know it is part of her nature, I give her space in such situations and it all works out. No big deal, in my book.

That’s cuz you’re the shiz. Plus maybe cuz you’re not Te dom. This is actually my biggest problem with the two Te doms I know: if I can’t effectively defend my position right away (!), then hesitation is unacceptable.

16) My intimidation by Te, and some oversensitivity leads me to sometimes not express my opinions when I should - working on this one. Thinking it out ahead of time helps.

Have a drink or two before the conversation and let it all hang out.

Believe me, I have considered the tactic of filling a poison ring with Ativan.

9) Find it difficult to assess when is the time to make a Big Deal out of something - Their reaction to something really depends on the other person's response. They may find it easy to forgive something or deal with it on their own if the person recognizes that they are making a concession. If the person trivializes or continues on with more of the same behaviour, it's the last straw (in a very big load of straws!) and the other examples of where they have seen the same behaviour will be brought up.

Oh my, I have been surprised at how long my "List of Errors" has been compiled at times. When you're pissed at someone, just say it, bottling up anger, pain or resentment doesn't help anyone, it really doesn't!

I think this might be one of those areas where J/P creates a significant difference of opinion. As a J- experiences with someone tend to stockpile in the back of my mind (as mentioned above). If someone voices a complaint every single time they get angry about something- that gets thrown into my construct of the person- and ultimately I don’t take their complaints as seriously as someone who rarely complains. But when someone who rarely complains says something: I’m instantly all over it, trying to amend the situation.

So yeah, bottling it up doesn’t help get rid of it, but I can’t help but feel I’m discrediting myself in the other person’s point of view if I don’t make sure my anger is warranted (because I do discredit people who senselessy complain at me).

That being said, okay yeah, INFJs tend to take it too far.


I’ll probably come back to think about the Fe/Fi discussion later when I have time to reflect on it.

 

[sculpting]

Orobas, I don't really understand the "nudging" concept, what happens there exactly? Also how can you make an ISTJ glow back at you, even though this type is not a major Fi user like you?

well...I'd suggest this falls in the category of unintentional ENFP manipulation...until you realize what you have been doing. Then you get a choice, because you can hurt people if you are not careful.

I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

 

[Fidelia]

The other issue is that I don't just save up things I'm mad about to throw back at someone at an opportune time. I think that I've really dealt with it and either convince myself that I'm blowing something little out of proportion, that it is not significant enough to bring up for the reasons Z Buck mentioned, or that I've straightened things out with the person and am okay. Usually they will not be without any awareness that something is a problem. I don't hide it well and I like to be upfront and opn as well as possible. I think part of it is also that I tend to adjust or do more than I would normally do for someone, expecting that it will be reciprocal. Ts tend to give as much as they feel comfortable doing without resentment or needing recognition and so assume it is the same for others.

When a person's continued behaviour indicates to me that there is a more deep underlying pattern of a problem (as evidenced between the similarities in a,b,c,d,e, and f incidents rather than these being unconnected incidents), or if the other person doesn't appreciate or recognize that I am already being stretched to the limits of my tolerance, and they continue to do whatever is the problem, then that's when that clash occurs. If they backed off at that point, or understood the import of me having brought it up in the past more than once and even made attempts to amend, those past incidents would be irrelevant to me. However, since it continues, it brings to mind all of the other unresolved occasions and makes me feel either resentful or at the very least like a sucker for having to constantly be the one doing the adjusting instead of them. Then when they react as if I'm making a mountain out of one small incident, I feel the need to let them know why it's not just about that one little incident and they feel that I am being unforgiving or bottling up pain. Then I just feel like they don't get it at all and am even more frustrated, or I end up apologizing for even bringing it up and still have the aftermath to deal with and don't have it resolved before the next thing triggers the same issue again.

 

[Fidelia]

well...I'd suggest this falls in the category of unintentional ENFP manipulation...until you realize what you have been doing. Then you get a choice, because you can hurt people if you are not careful.

I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).

 

[sculpting]

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).

Hmmm..but I would never do this to an INFJ or god forbid an ENTP. Hell I never do this to anybody BUT IXTJs. INFJs may see some Ne silliness, but almost all NeTe. I may door hop, make a joke, punch them with Te, but leave within two minutes. Not Fi at all. This would concur with the concept of ENFPs showing different facets of personality depending upon who we are interacting with.

Somebody earlier mentioned the web as being possibly tricky or more open...I wonder if this places ENFPs at some disadvantage as you may see me act very Fi in a thread with an INTJ, but then very Te in a thread with an ENTP. Thus even when looking at my Te post, you are left with a distaste from the thread where I seemed Fi. Interesting thought...


EDIT-would it be "attention seeking" because that is what you would be doing if you behaved this way? Thus in effect you are projecting what your INFJ behavioral motives are upon another type inadvertently?

 

[uumlau]

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).

When one is "formal" with an INFJ, you evoke the INFJ's emotions, and generally it "feels considerate" to the INFJ.

When one is "formal" with an INTJ, you evoke the INTJ's thinking (Te, instead of Fe). It doesn't feel "considerate" or good or polite or anything, it is merely "how you do things in order to get them done." This is why it's nigh impossible to compliment or insult an INTJ, or to give an INTJ a gift that is meaningful.

However, by being "informal" with an INTJ, you invoke Fi, and are generally able to touch his heart, as long as the informality is on the emotional level - Fi.

Try the same thing with an INFJ, and you invoke Ti, not Fi, and the INFJ is going to think, "WTF is this sh-t?!" Ti wonders what the "game" is.

This is not to say that INFJs are stiff and formal, but rather that you need to respect the Fe gatekeeper the same way one must respect the INTJs Te gatekeeper. First, you need to prove that you are polite and respectful to an INFJ, and THEN you can relax and shoot the breeze with all sorts of informal topics once you eventually become closer. My Mom could seem very "Fi" at times, very undiplomatic, rude, impolitic, impolite ... but that was only with those close to her. With strangers, the Fe gatekeeper goes up, keeping people at an emotional distance, all the while evaluating how to handle them emotionally.

This is similar to how I advise most people to approach INTJs, through Te, first, and not rush to Fi. ENFPs seem to have an instinctive manner that approaches the Fi first that happens to work with INTJs, but this is an ENFP talent, and doesn't work with most other types. With an INTJ, you approach via Te, letting them know that you deal with ideas seriously, and THEN you can eventually start exploring and playing with ideas (Ti) or exploring feelings (Fi) later on. [Actually, I think ENFPs use a combo of Te and Fi to do their INTJ tricks: INTJs read the Te (as being very "commonsense") and therefore trust the Fi.]

 

[sculpting]

You might not hitch with INFJs, but it doesn't mean that they need to change. It may mean that if you and they are going to work together, both will have to change their approaches somewhat. And for close relationships, you could choose to avoid INFJs because those qualities are a big part of what they are all about. Choose someone that is closer to what you can deal with. I don't like to be short with people or disrespectful to them. You should know though that your approach was disrespectful and rude and it won't win INFJs over to your way of doing things, even if that's how you really, really feel is the best way to fly.

You cannot glibly tell someone that their basic nature (along with values that are very important to them) are flawed and they need to completely change and adopt your way of doing things and expect they will happily accept your verdict. You obviously have not taken time to understand why some of those things are a Big Deal. More effective would be explaining why what they are doing isn't always effective, give some specific examples and then leave it to them to mull.

wow Fidelia, these two bolded parts resonate so strongly with me. They really address thoughts I have been having a lot as of late-but about what it means to be an ENFP...

They are exactly what we feel when people describe our innate behavior and then say we are crazy, attention seeking, overly emotional, manipulative or other insulting things. We aren't any of those things-we are just people with an innate pattern of behavior that the other person doesnt understand-but we are expected to totally redefine ourselves if we are to be "acceptable".

Part of the reason I have been pondering these thoughts on several threads is that I am tired of having to try and change what I am innately. These are really good thoughts.

 

[colourscientist]

When one is "formal" with an INTJ, you evoke the INTJ's thinking (Te, instead of Fe). It doesn't feel "considerate" or good or polite or anything, it is merely "how you do things in order to get them done." This is why it's nigh impossible to compliment or insult an INTJ, or to give an INTJ a gift that is meaningful.

+1000 i'm quite sure that half of humanity can feel that just by trying to make a conversation with an INTJ, the other half, as i've seen it happening, does give presents that probably make for some awkward moments, but i'm content not having heard about that.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

A nice post. A lovely metaphor. No, I amend that: it's a fabulous metaphor.

I do agree that I don't seek to change your color beam. Meaning, I don't have a preconceived notion of what your colour should be. But, that doesn't mean I am oblivious to how our colour blends, or that different moods and people mixed in affect the changing of a colour, and you do have the power to change mine, so I have to be careful about your colour taking over my colour. I totally have the power to influence colours too. But it feels intrusive and presumptuous to change YOUR colour. Unless I think you are very sad or stuck - then of course I want to help you change your colour, through the influence of my colour but not BY my colour.

That being said too, I "see" when someone is trying to change other colours to get what they want, then I feel offended by the inappropriate use of the F power.

INFJ and INFP too are Fe sec + Fi dom. I wonder what an ENFJ (Fe dom) would say here.

Plus, I need to see if anyone burned me in effigy during my hiatus.

There's a little smoke coming off your sock, but it seems to have survived intact.

Do you think Fi in real life is very private and so you often do not get into the same kinds of clashes as easily?

IRL I would not express myself as I do here. At all. Mostly because most of the world is disinterested. So ... you get to see the unvarnished edges. 5% of the time.

Myself too, as a 9w1, SO dominant, I feel groups, I get the power dynamics, I see and use and feel Fe all the time. I can circumnavigate with ease, understand who needs what, who needs to be reassured, who responds to play or flattery or matter-of-fact communication.

I think Fi is hard for people to deal with. It's hard enough for me to deal with despite a toolbox of tools at this point in my life to wield it with wisdom and hewn with balance.

I fix your PC, you make me dinner, this deal has been working for my wife and I for 16 years.

LOL, I make dinner hubs does the dishes. Love that kind of balance.

It would be interesting to compare INFJ 1w2s w/ INFJ 4w5s...

I think it can make a big difference; as a type 9 I seem different than many INFP's ... I can feel it. I seem to relate least to my type 4 brethren. (But I still wuv's ya!)

After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right?

LOL, you two are so cute.

Yes, it's knowing WHEN to use the CRAZEE and when to put it away. Thus the INFP feeling of being a chameleon, which I have written about before. Adapting to all situations. Trying to use the right tools for the job. Filling your toolbox so you have the tools in the first place. That was what prompted my desire to understand the enneagram instinctual stacking order - more tools, that I can use to help fix things / stay out of "doggie-doo-doo" with.

Good stuff.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

well...I'd suggest this falls in the category of unintentional ENFP manipulation...until you realize what you have been doing. Then you get a choice, because you can hurt people if you are not careful.

I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).

I've gotta stop in in the middle of my catch up on this thread and respond to this exchange between Fidelia and Orobas. I stopped dead in my tracks when I read this. DEAD IN MY TRACKS!

I had this exact same thing happen between me and an INFJ once. I was just being my normal zany self. He accused me of "trying to get his attention."

I cannot tell you how angry I got when he said that to me. I thought him an arrogant son of a bitch to think that was my motivation in sharing my zaniness with him. I'm still mad when I think about it.

For the first time in two years, I think I might have a glimmer of why he misinterpreted my actions.

Now this INFJ was being a bit... well let's just say that it's time life took him down a peg or two at that particular juncture, but wow.... I'm going to have to process this.

 

[Fidelia]

Lots of interesting stuff to comment on. Re the colour thing - I think it says that INFJs and INFPs love people in very different ways and I'm not sure what the success rate of it would be if they got together, even understanding those differences. For me at least, I think I would always be left feeling unloved and constantly that any natural attempts to show love for my SO would be felt as intrusive and rude.

 

[Fidelia]

Esoteric, in conjuction with what umlauu said, as well as your comments on the craziness thing - To me, it is received kind of like someone who has been introduced to you with your last name being used and the other person settles in and not only uses your first name, but a familiar silly name derived from your first name that annoys and then uses it frequently in the conversation. It's not even that I want to remain the social equivalent of being on a Mr., Mrs, or Miss basis, but it is only polite to wait until the other person says, "Hey, call me such and such" or until you've known each other long enough for someone to come up with a pet name. It's coming in and acting like Tigger without checking to see what the other person's mood and mindset is like first. And that is why it is perceived as attention seeking, or else being offensive/socially unaware.

 

[highlander]

well...I'd suggest this falls in the category of unintentional ENFP manipulation...until you realize what you have been doing. Then you get a choice, because you can hurt people if you are not careful.

I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

I think this is charming. I don't know if it would work with an ISTJ though. INTJ yes.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I think this is charming. I don't know if it would work with an ISTJ though. INTJ yes.

Yeah..... normally this stuff completely works on most people. I guess I never tried to think about which MBTI types it would work with and which ones it wouldn't work with... then again, it's only recently that I was even aware that not everyone did this.... In other words, that this kind of behavior is an Fi thing.

My intuition tells me that this would work with INFJs, too. But apparently, my intuition is not batting 1000 today.

 

[Fidelia]

Being hugged by someone who is not part of my most inner circle? Having my face touched by them? Spilling everything in response to someone glowing? Nope, I don't think INFJs would respond. I actually am surprised to find out that this is key in an INTJ responding differently (or other Fi users). I made the same assumption as you EW, except to the opposite way of thinking! What would it feel like though if a Fe user did it?

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ have you not watched people, to unlock their "secrets"? To see how each person responds uniquely to each other?

What one person finds charming and disarming is what causes another to freeze and shrink away in fear ... so you adapt, you take in all this data and utilize it in your worldly interactions.

Can you relate to me saying this?