[INFJ] Common INFJ issues

[highlander]

Yeah, personally I'd like to see similar lists written by different types so we can get a glimpse into their inner workings. It would be really interesting to see what each type thinks their issues or potential problematic areas are.

This thread is becoming incredibly awesome and ground breaking. I am super duper thrilled.. Fid and Zanzi.. You guys rock!!!. You have cheered me up a little.. Bless you both.

But really, I need to go.. I will be back

Really, this thread is pretty remarkable. It would be a hard act to follow for other types or anybody else for that matter

re non-disclosure: As mentioned before, I hate emotional surprises. Therefore, before I put something out there, I would like to have weighed what your likely reaction is vs whether it is important enough for conflict or the feeling that reaction may engender in me.

If you are not close to me, I will either decide that your opinion doesn't really matter to me and go for it, or that it's not something worth talking about if it is not affecting our relationship and it may create unnecessary conflict and is not a moral integrity kind of issue. Te in particular makes me feel very put on the spot. If I know that I will have to defend it, I'd like to have an argument ready.

I've seen these types of references to Te in a few places. Can you explain what it is with Te? How does it put you on the spot or make you freeze?

I'll have to mull this one over. Generally I hate collaborative projects of any sort and would prefer to think, consult, think consult as separate rather than simultaneous activities. The reason for this is that I need time in between to think about the new information I have received and decide how I feel about it. I have a hard time doing that on the spot and so then end up agreeing to something that I'm not happy with in the end. However, it is good to try different ideas out, so I'm not discounting this.

I believe this is one of the reasons that I truly hate commitee work. It just feels like I can get so much more done alone and then when I run into trouble I can actually use the person's time and resources more wisely. That way they can also get something done. You are probably right though that it is good to change things up and try it out.

I used to feel this way about collaborative projects or work efforts but do not anymore. I guess it got easier when I realized that I didn't have to come up with the answers and that it was more important to ask the right questions. I could steer the dialogue, get everybody participating and offering their perspectives, and help drive the discussion to conclusions or decisions. With regards to INFJs, you have a natural aptitude for listening. Ni recognizes and appreciates ideas and alternative points of view. Fe seeks harmony within the group - possibly facilitating consensus. J seeks closure. So, I could be horribly wrong, but this might be something that you could be good at with more experience.

Orabas brought up an interesting point in another thread that I had not considered before. She was saying that Fe users tend to interpret critical statements as being much harsher than they really are intended because they tend to soften their message for their hearer. Fi users tend to take things at face value because that's how they would write them, and they are surprised when Fe users extrapolate beyond the words that they said. Do you think that may be applicable in this thread? I probably took both EW's and Arclights statements as being harsher than they were really meant, but even when they said they weren't meant harshly, I still thought to myself that either it was a problem in how they communicated it, or they were backpedalling, which wasn't the case. Food for thought.

The only thing I'm wondering about in this thread is there is a lot of dialogue about Fe, which is immensely interesting and insightful. But there isn't much on Ni though it clearly is behind many of the things outlined in the OP. It's not a criticism. It's a question - just wondering why that might be.

 

[Fidelia]

I've seen these types of references to Te in a few places. Can you explain what it is with Te? How does it put you on the spot or make you freeze?

Te seems a little aggressive and impatient to me, even though I greatly admire it. It's often what makes people excellent debaters I think. I just feel like I won't have time to properly articulate my thoughts before someone decides what category they belong in. I usually do better by looking for common ground than by highlighting differences, so sometimes resulting questions/arguments that the Te user might have feel attacking when they are not meant to. I have a hard time even using Te to organize my writing and so get mired down in this mess of Ni and Ti.

I used to feel this way about collaborative projects or work efforts but do not anymore. I guess it got easier when I realized that I didn't have to come up with the answers and that it was more important to ask the right questions. I could steer the dialogue, get everybody participating and offering their perspectives, and help drive the discussion to conclusions or decisions. With regards to INFJs, you have a natural aptitude for listening. Ni recognizes and appreciates ideas and alternative points of view. Fe seeks harmony within the group - possibly facilitating consensus. J seeks closure. So, I could be horribly wrong, but this might be something that you could be good at with more experience.

I like to either be a drone that is told what to do, or have a project being something that reflects my vision and that I'm 100% proud of. Even in Grade 2 I greatly disliked collaborating sentence by sentence to make a story with all of our classmates contributing. I didn't want to have my name on it. I am an excellent facilitator of discussion, but when working on a project together, I cannot control how hard others work, and I also have to treat everyone's ideas like they are equally valid, when in fact, I don't think they are. I am happy to be a benevolent dictator that seeks out information and takes different perspectives into account or delegates the parts that I know will showcase and use each team member's strengths. However, I've concluded after taking part on a number of committees that I just am less and less invested when I feel that there are more time efficient ways of doing things that could turn out better quality stuff. I'm okay with being the delegatee. I just don't like it when everyone is completely equal. I want a clear leader.

The only thing I'm wondering about in this thread is there is a lot of dialogue about Fe, which is immensely interesting and insightful. But there isn't much on Ni though it clearly is behind many of the things outlined in the OP. It's not a criticism. It's a question - just wondering why that might be.

I've wondered about that sometimes with me. I know that Fe use is pretty high on my list of functions. However Sim once suggested that because everything is viewed through the lens of Ni, I may just be less aware of how Ni affects my outlook or when it is colouring things. That may have some truth to it. Certainly it's there - I think I'm pretty good at generating a wide variety of possible reasons why a person might act a certain way or looking at the world from many different angles. I know that I make a lot of interconnections between different ideas (which is one of the reasons that I find it hard to synopsize or argue a point without bringing in too much extraneous information to annoy the listener or confuse them. I find it hard to weed out what matters and what doesn't until I've expressed it a number of times and distilled it down.)

How do you see Ni figuring into this stuff, seeing as you yourself are a Ni-dom? Do you notice examples of Ni even within this thread?

 

[highlander]

I like to either be a drone that is told what to do, or have a project being something that reflects my vision and that I'm 100% proud of. Even in Grade 2 I greatly disliked collaborating sentence by sentence to make a story with all of our classmates contributing. I didn't want to have my name on it. I am an excellent facilitator of discussion, but when working on a project together, I cannot control how hard others work, and I also have to treat everyone's ideas like they are equally valid, when in fact, I don't think they are. I am happy to be a benevolent dictator that seeks out information and takes different perspectives into account or delegates the parts that I know will showcase and use each team member's strengths. However, I've concluded after taking part on a number of committees that I just am less and less invested when I feel that there are more time efficient ways of doing things that could turn out better quality stuff. I'm okay with being the delegatee. I just don't like it when everyone is completely equal. I want a clear leader.

Well, I'll vote for you.

I've wondered about that sometimes with me. I know that Fe use is pretty high on my list of functions. However Sim once suggested that because everything is viewed through the lens of Ni, I may just be less aware of how Ni affects my outlook or when it is colouring things. That may have some truth to it. Certainly it's there - I think I'm pretty good at generating a wide variety of possible reasons why a person might act a certain way or looking at the world from many different angles. I know that I make a lot of interconnections between different ideas (which is one of the reasons that I find it hard to synopsize or argue a point without bringing in too much extraneous information to annoy the listener or confuse them. I find it hard to weed out what matters and what doesn't until I've expressed it a number of times and distilled it down.)

How do you see Ni figuring into this stuff, seeing as you yourself are a Ni-dom? Do you notice examples of Ni even within this thread?

There seems to be an awful lot of commonality in general with INTJ. This whole thread feels Ni-dom in fact - investigating a topic in depth and seeking to elaborate on and clarify the key insights; a groundbreaking thread in the first place.

I've listed the ones from your OP that seemed to resonate with me and "*"ed the ones that seem like they are related to being an Ni-dom.

* 1)Delayed processing time

2) Need for resolution

* 3) Considering every hobby, person or idea expressed as an extension of themselves

* 4) Dislike of emotional surprises - (It's different than the words that you have but the concept is the same of wanting comfort with the external environment before jumping in and not liking surprises.)

5) Hold those close to them to a higher degree of accountability than those that are less important to them

* 6) Easily embarrassed and quite private

* 7) Long gaps in correspondance or putting off a job that matters a lot - This seems to be linked to wanting to do an excellent job of it and feeling overwhelmed by the amount of time or effort or organization required. The longer it is put off, the worse we feel. As a result, it is usually my most valued friends that I correspond with least. Usually I try to overcome this by phoning them, catching up on the bulk of it, and then writing the rest.

Tendancies:
* 8) Not creating clear enough boundaries for people around them - there's a tendancy to respond to those who are most actively demanding attention, especially when younger. Also the need to be sure that they've looked at everything from all angles, made a correct assessment of all possible motivations and exhausted what they can do to impact the situation before really drawing a hard and fast line. I think this improves with age.

9) Find it difficult to assess when is the time to make a Big Deal out of something

My own (maybe INFJ related) problems

*13) Tendancy to be poor with paperwork (I'm not poor but utterly hate it with a passion), locating items quickly under pressure

14) Am a responder more than an initiator

*15) Not good at paying attention to detail (in my environment, and in instructions) - This is why I try to stock a lot of sensors in my life. They are happy to fill in my gaps and give me reminders when needed. They also tend to think in terms of smaller practical details that must be attented to.

*17) Over-indulgent when under stress

* 18) Put off jobs that are unpleasant or that I am not sure how to do - I'm sure this isn't totally type related, but I think avoidance is a greater tendancy with INFJs than Te driven people. Sometimes Ni and Ti create a loop that doesn't work well.

* 19) Stubborn - I tend to need a lot of convincing with a new idea before I will adopt it, because it involves changing the whole structure over again.

* 20) Promising more than I can actually deliver - I want so badly to take care of everything that sometimes I overestimate what I am able to do. I've learned as a teacher to promise less and make sure I actually do it every time.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Dude. Imagine a mob of angry INFJs attacking you for a misunderstanding. That happened to me on an INTP thread once, with a mob of INTPs, because I wasn't careful enough. Not making that mistake again!

^can’t stop laughing at this.

First off, Damn you Z (Aka congrats), I was going to say that last night, but I went to sleep instead about our bias against Arclight, and Esoteric.

Being first feels like winning, and winning feels good.

Orabas brought up an interesting point in another thread that I had not considered before. She was saying that Fe users tend to interpret critical statements as being much harsher than they really are intended because they tend to soften their message for their hearer. Fi users tend to take things at face value because that's how they would write them, and they are surprised when Fe users extrapolate beyond the words that they said. Do you think that may be applicable in this thread? I probably took both EW's and Arclights statements as being harsher than they were really meant, but even when they said they weren't meant harshly, I still thought to myself that either it was a problem in how they communicated it, or they were backpedalling, which wasn't the case. Food for thought.

This is interesting. I wonder if it's something that happens to a Fi users as they become acclimated to written communication, because I really don’t see it in my real-life Fi dom friends. They actually read more negative associations in my words than I read into theirs, I find myself being extra careful around them. Of course, I realize one person’s experience of two Fi doms doesn’t make for a compelling argument. I’m just saying my irl experience is somewhat contrary, while my online experience of Fi doms is congruent with what was said.


This thread keeps moving at a faster rate than my slow self can keep up.

 

[Fidelia]

I'd have to agree with you about that. So why the divide between written vs verbal communication?

Oh, and highlander - I was surprised to realize how many common traits INFJs have with INTJs. I mean, I realized that there's a lot of common ground, but it never occurred to me how very pervasive Ni is in our outlooks.

 

[runvardh]

Oh, and highlander - I was surprised to realize how many common traits INFJs have with INTJs. I mean, I realized that there's a lot of common ground, but it never occurred to me how very pervasive Ni is in our outlooks.

Ni is an internal directed function so it has a habit of hiding that more. Discussions on it are one of the few I really like looking in on when it comes to the realizations of the participants. ^_^

 

[Z Buck McFate]

So why the divide between written vs verbal communication?

I wonder if it has something to do with interacting with a keyboard and computer screen rather than a living breathing person. Maybe somehow Fi is at it's strongest when there are no people in the direct vicinity.

That's a total guess, of course. Maybe a Fi person will answer you.

 

[runvardh]

I wonder if it has something to do with interacting with a keyboard and computer screen rather than a living breathing person. Maybe somehow Fi is at it's strongest when there are no people in the direct vicinity.

That's a total guess, of course. Maybe a Fi person will answer you.

Not this one, though the idea of no people around making it easier is a possibility. I don't feel as if I am under as much pressure for a response when there's no one looking at me expecting one.

 

[21%]

Hi Zanzi
I have been racking my brain trying to find a solution and a way to articulate what it is I exactly feel. So that I could express it and not hurt people at the same time. Because so far I have not been very successful and I would prefer not to alienate people I like and respect.

This is the best I can come up with.. But I have a feeling I might get a hit here.

I would like for you to think about about how hard you guys judge yourselves. The standards you hold yourselves to. The depth of your own self expectations.How self critical.
Think about how you feel when you fail yourselves. The shame, the embarrassment, the horror, the anger, the shock and the hurt.

You know how hard you can be on yourselves and you know it's almost impossible to reach your own ideals.

Now I think Esoteric Wench and I understand this about each other. We have been Judged by an INFJ by the same standards that you use to judge yourselves. and we failed. and we are hurt.
It hurts even more that we would never judge you by your own standards.
It hurts when we are the ugliness you see in yourselves when we once shared the beauty instead.

This is beautiful, Arclight.

And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.

 

[SilkRoad]

Just thought of another that should have gone on my personal list. I have a tendancy towards secrecy/protectiveness of anything that I feel others whose opinions matter would really dislike. This can be pretty innocuous (no one needs to know my secret affection for Phil Collin's Groovy Kind of Love), or it may be that I don't have different groups of friends meet each other if I don't think they'll hitch (that emotional surprises thing again) or sometimes when I do/don't do something that I feel bad about and don't want others to know.

This is where it gets most serious and it leads to sins of omission or a little lie, but the cavern just gets deeper the ground seems to split further and further apart. Then it's hard to backtrack and set things right again. Not only does this go against my value system and my profession of being a Christian, but secrecy always takes on a life of its own. What may start out as saying you've done something that you intend to do later that day, becomes a much bigger deal the longer it goes on. It comes between people and compromises the trust that should be there. It stems from not wanting to disappoint others, but really is a form of pride and not taking responsibility for your behaviour or decisions. This one I have worked on a lot through the years and I think am much better than I was. It is a trait in myself that I truly despise and see as being very destructive.

Yes...I think I know what you mean, I think I see this in myself too.

To give a couple of practical, though perhaps slightly silly examples: despite the fact that I adore the Lord of the Rings films, it annoys me a bit that now "everyone" knows who Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas are, because films reach such a wider audience...before, I felt like I belonged to more of a private club who'd read the books (even though there were a lot of people in that "club"!).

Or, even if I've discussed the whole situation extensively with a close friend, I might subsequently avoid telling that friend that I'm still hanging out with a guy for who I'm nursing a secret crush...because I know she thinks it's a bad idea...even though she'd be sympathetic and non-judgmental and could probably give me some interesting advice on the situation...I'll just kind of keep it to myself because otherwise I end up feeling really exposed.

 

[Phantonym]

When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

 

[SilkRoad]

I really need to go back and read this thread more thoroughly. Lots of amazing insights from different perspectives!

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Holy mackerel!!! I also have to go back and read this thread from the beginning. I took two days off after my last post (in part so I could get some distance to respond after some reflection and for my emotions to calm down) and apparently the whole thread exploded during my absence.

Plus, I need to see if anyone burned me in effigy during my hiatus.

 

[Fidelia]

This is beautiful, Arclight.

And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.

I identify with this in a huge way! The sense of "us-ness" is paramount to me and what seems like judgement or criticism or control to Fi is (as 21% as said) actually a feeling of rejection or that we are in this alone doing most of the adjusting. While I can appreciate a person for them, if I'm in a relationship with them, it is mostly about what they and me combined together become. Someone who is able to brighten my beam when I cannot replenishes the reserves that I have to keep on is someone who I grow to love more and more. That may be making me feel cherished and protected, listened to or even caring enough to bring important things about myself to my attention in a loving way. It's always how what they add affects or tempers what I am alone. When they leave me alone instead to allow me to explore the colour that I am at that time (which they may prefer to do themselves), or if they only want to be left alone and feel my attempts to temper are intrusive, I don't know how to interact anymore. The things that I value and need are not important and I can't give them what they value and need, because I don't love that way.

 

[Fidelia]

Holy mackerel!!! I also have to go back and read this thread from the beginning. I took two days off after my last post (in part so I could get some distance to respond after some reflection and for my emotions to calm down) and apparently the whole thread exploded during my absence.

Plus, I need to see if anyone burned me in effigy during my hiatus.

In effigy? Naw, everything's cool, EW. In fact, we even explored several hypothesis for why we all reacted in the same way.

 

[Billy]

Most common INFJ issues and thier answers Take 1:

1. Overthinking. - STFU brain ill stab you with a Q-tip!
2. Self sacrificers- Be selfish once and a while, especially on the important stuff like romantic relationships, otherwise you will self sacrifice yourself right into a black emotional hole.
3. Underhanded manipulators... yeah yeah aside from all the rainbows the profiles blow up our asses we are also hardcore manipulators, only our stuff is so subtle people commonly mistake it for other stuff, hmmm this isnt really a problem but I find people wont always DIE if I give them some constructive criticism, I had to learn to be able to voice that stuff up, but now that I do, people dont have to guess my boundaries, they just know what they are.

 

[Fidelia]

I wonder if it has something to do with interacting with a keyboard and computer screen rather than a living breathing person. Maybe somehow Fi is at it's strongest when there are no people in the direct vicinity.

That's a total guess, of course. Maybe a Fi person will answer you.

Do you think Fi in real life is very private and so you often do not get into the same kinds of clashes as easily? On here, interactions are sped up and intensified, topics are explored that you normally wouldn't except with those very close etc. I know that a lot of INFPs avoid conflict in real life. Yet I don't see that dynamic in the forum nearly as much. I wonder why that is...

EDIT: Interesting ideas umlauu presented in that other thread I was talking about before. Talks about some of the Fe/Ti-Fi/Te misunderstandings that often occur and how to get around them. I thought there was some extremely useful stuff there.

It needs to be emphasized that Fe isn't "fake" or "manipulative": these are words that describe people, not Jungian functions. It is perhaps more correct to say that these are traits of people who happen to apply Fe-related skills negatively. The "skill" of Fe is navigating social situations. One can navigate by being very diplomatic without being deceitful at all. Or one can navigate by being very deceitful and manipulative and cleverly avoiding being detected as such. Te/Fi "users" can rightly claim to not do that sort of thing, but it is a rejection of the positive and the negative qualities of the Fe skills. Being deceitful feels "icky" to us, but so does being diplomatic: diplomacy "feels" like lying and deceitfulness. There is a distinct preference for being very blunt. Similarly, Fe "users" are just as repulsed/confused by the Te/Fi style of doing things, because it gets interpreted through the Fe lens: plain talk without any diplomatic softening just feels wrong, and can be interpreted it far more harshly than it is intended.

The main thing for Fi users to recognize is that Fe isn't any less genuine just because it "feels fake." It's entirely genuine, but it's an attempt to express feelings "constructively." The same way Te leaves out a lot of the Ti-style precision in order to communicate ideas clearly, Fe leaves out a lot of the Fi-style precision (about emotions/values/feelings) in order to communicate subjective ideas clearly. That lack of precision, of not saying how one "really feels" is what feels fake to Fi, whereas to Fe, the extra "precision" actually gets in the way of clear and effective communication.

Thus whereas the idealized archetypical INTP scientist/mathematician would find it very difficult to convey logical ideas in tiny bite-sized pieces small enough for people unfamiliar with the subject to follow, the idealized archetypical INFP "saint/monk/artist" finds it difficult to teach "enlightment" in such a way that leads others to a rudimentary understanding. Both archetypes tend to be a weird combination of vague/obscure in with respect to self-expression but seem to possess a super-detailed precision when dissecting others' ideas/thoughts. This isn't a contradiction: rather, it is the fact that one's own understanding feels very complete, but actual communication/expression of that understanding always feels incomplete, that there is always something left unsaid that needs to be said.

So, those on the Fi side of things should recognize what those feelings of "being genuine" or "being fake" mean, but shouldn't not translate those into value judgments of others' behavior: that the Fe way of handling things only "feels fake" to Fi, it isn't "really fake." Those on the Fe side should recognize that Fi people aren't as crude or simplistic or self-indulgent as they might seem on the surface, as interpreted by Fe rules. Rather, these should be recognized as Fi behavior and it helps to adopt ways of dealing with this subset of behavior rather than requiring that it comply with your personal standards. Instead of expecting an Fi user to pick up on social hints, it usually works to say something like, "I totally understand how you feel, and I would feel that way, too, if that happened to me <express an appreciation in the Fi way>. It might work better <Te style solution> if you try [insert proper course of action here]." Where Fe users tend to trip over Fi is telling Fi users "how to feel". That entrenches them just as much as telling a Ti user "how to think." Strangely, the persuasive course of action is to be blunt and tell them what you really think, what you really feel, and give them the kind of talk that you would usually reserve for a very private conversation.

Fi users can similarly learn how to deal with Fe users: instead of taking offense at being told "how to feel," or feeling condemned when they express mere annoyance, learn to read the signals being sent. They aren't that hard to read ... they just aren't ones that an Fi user would normally use or expect.

I don't want to turn this into a Fi/Fe thread, but thought that it was interesting in light of some of the things we have been discussing here (and because all of the other types that have responded so far have been Fi users).

 

[Halla74]

I've been thinking over some of the threads I've read, the discussions I've had with others about INFJs, and my own experiences. I thought it would be interesting to summarize what I've found to be the most common sources of misunderstanding, as well as some of the most frustrating (perhaps type related?) issues that seem to have come up in my relationships/close friendships. I'd be interested in your own thoughts on this as well.

As an ESTP married to an INFJ for 16 years, I will offer my commentary, from the perspective of a loving onlooker of the INFJ "shadow" type.

Misunderstandings:
1)Delayed processing time - INFJs often seem to be basing their responses to the person in question on the last interaction they had with them, more often than the current one.

This can be really problematic in two ways:
(a) If your last experience with a person was negative, and they have improved since then, you will be prone to judging them at your lowest expectation, and they might be offended, or get their feelings hurt.

(b) If their last experience with you was positive, and they have turned into a douchebag since then, you might get burned by their treachery as you will likely not be observing their mannerisms, details of their actions, etc., because in your book they "passed the test" the last go around...

(1) (continued...) They prefer to have time to think things over, which is why it's not a great idea to try to push an INFJ into making a decision before they feel they have had enough time to mull everything that has been brought up.

My wifey is like this, and it is not an issue for, since I know it is part of her nature, I give her space in such situations and it all works out. No big deal, in my book.

2) Need for resolution - What may look to some like being nitpicky or unforgiving or even holding onto the past often has more to do with their need to get everything put away in it's proper place before closing the chapter on it. Without doing so, it keeps coming up again and again.

This is more damaging to the INFJ than anyone else. I can walk away from something or someone at a moment's notice and NEVER look back or think about the situation/person again if my boundaries are crossed. I love being able to do this. It saves me from having to deal with a whole lot of needless scum.

3) Considering every hobby, person or idea expressed as an extension of themselves - INFJs tend to be very self-protective, and rarely bring something up unless they have already implemented it into their main framework of thought or affection. Therefore when any of these things are dismissed or mocked, they will feel it as a personal rejection, unlike someone who tends to verbalize new ideas out loud. Similarly, INFJs will sometimes be confused by someone who seemed committed to a thought or a plan, only to abandon it later.

The first part I have not witnessed first hand, the second (bolded part) I have and agree with. Most "perceivers" will be able to abandon plans as other options present themselves. INFJs realy seem to get bent out of shape by this. In some cases it might be warranted, especially if there is money involved, or if no communication has occured to identify a potential alternative course of action.

4) Dislike of emotional surprises - this leads INFJs to sometimes inconvenience others in their effort to know what to expect. I'm fine with a change of plans, but find it harder to quickly adjust to someone's sudden annoyance, to a change in something I had really been hoping for/counting on etc. Makes me more likely to try to be the one to take on any inconvenience because that is more predictable. I also tend to need to watch a situation for awhile (either social or skillwise) before I am comfortable jumping in. I think with maturity we can become less focussed on their own reactions and feelings and also realize that someone else being upset is not the very worst that can happen. Sometimes avoiding that happening actually creates more conflict.

INFJs are not the only one's who dislike emotional surprises...

5) Hold those close to them to a higher degree of accountability than those that are less important to them - This may seem judgemental and unfair, but because those close to them are an extension of their own self, integrity is paramount to them and they choose to invest heavily in a few close relationships, they expect more of those people than they do of casual acquaintance friends. When they feel you are worth risking conflict with and you start hearing the negatives about yourself as well as the positives, you're in!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this one.

6) Easily embarrassed and quite private - May mean that they take awhile before talking about something that is painful to them. This doesn't mean they don't care about the support you could give them. It's just that they need to get it thought out in a framework and untangled before they are ready to be more open. I tend to talk about it more after I think I'm going to be alright.

Again, I'm not sure being sensitive is an issue, so long as you recognize other people's goodwill in the course of it, and don't expect people to read your mind...

7) Long gaps in correspondance or putting off a job that matters a lot - This seems to be linked to wanting to do an excellent job of it and feeling overwhelmed by the amount of time or effort or organization required. The longer it is put off, the worse we feel. As a result, it is usually my most valued friends that I correspond with least. Usually I try to overcome this by phoning them, catching up on the bulk of it, and then writing the rest.

Haaaa! So true, and so funny! I talk to my closest friend all the time, sometimes daily.

Tendancies:
8) Not creating clear enough boundaries for people around them - there's a tendancy to respond to those who are most actively demanding attention, especially when younger. Also the need to be sure that they've looked at everything from all angles, made a correct assessment of all possible motivations and exhausted what they can do to impact the situation before really drawing a hard and fast line. I think this improves with age.

This one has been hard for me to watch, as my wife has put up with too much shit from a few stupid and selfish people in her family, that quite frankly, I would have told to go screw themselves a lonooong time ago. It does improve with age though, but assertiveness can never be learned too well, or too soon.

9) Find it difficult to assess when is the time to make a Big Deal out of something - Their reaction to something really depends on the other person's response. They may find it easy to forgive something or deal with it on their own if the person recognizes that they are making a concession. If the person trivializes or continues on with more of the same behaviour, it's the last straw (in a very big load of straws!) and the other examples of where they have seen the same behaviour will be brought up.

Oh my, I have been surprised at how long my "List of Errors" has been compiled at times. When you're pissed at someone, just say it, bottling up anger, pain or resentment doesn't help anyone, it really doesn't!

10) Hate being not in control of their emotions, yet sometimes underestimate how strong those emotions are till they are swamped by them. - (Note, not a good time for Ts to talk about how over-sensitive and emotional they are, as they despise being that way and are already terribly embarrassed).

I don't see this as an issue. It is a trait of humanity, some people are emotionally sensitive, others are not. I do understand how it can be debilitating to INFJs that are frequently made uncomfortable by this though.

11) Get less receptive to advice if the other person tries to skip over the venting that they need to do in order to bleed off excess emotion or when they feel the person hasn't taken enough time to understand the situation. Often their solutions are gained primarily from discussion with someone, not from getting the answers from someone.

Wow. Yeah, I have been on thhe receiving end of this, and I will be honest, there are times when I have had the strength to walk away, and there have been times when the full fury of my wrath has been summoned and I mowed over my INFJ to shut down the verbal hostility and end the conflict. Be very, very careful about wielding this, as it is a potential trigger for major arguments. No one wins when it goes too far. Both people will feel like shit. The reality is though, that many strong personalities have a long fuse, but an explosive temper when it goes off. That's me. I guarantee you there is almost zero chance of winning an argument with me if I get that angry. Luckily, I have only gotten that angry about 2-3 times in my life, but man did it suck having to get to that level with someone I loved and care for so much. We are all human though, and our imperfections will vary, and the potential for the interactions of our imperfections with each other is infinite, as is our own uniqueness.

12) Sometimes have a hard time recognizing when they need to pull back or give less so that they can continue doing so cheerfully. This seems to be the case especially with Ts.

Yes, I've seen this...

My own (maybe INFJ related) problems

13) Tendancy to be poor with paperwork, locating items quickly under pressure - I've largely solved this by having a big lanyard for my keys, carrying a decent sized purse and having a file folder that things go into immediately.

Yep! That's why y'all need ESTXs around you!

14) Am a responder more than an initiator - as a result I've missed out on many good friendships. I've learned that people respond much more warmly when you go out on a limb and make the first move. I've been working to actively improve this.

Good for you! Opportunity knocks once, and its great when you realize you are the one who can make it knock!

15) Not good at paying attention to detail (in my environment, and in instructions) - This is why I try to stock a lot of sensors in my life. They are happy to fill in my gaps and give me reminders when needed. They also tend to think in terms of smaller practical details that must be attented to.

Problem and solution are both accurate.

16) My intimidation by Te, and some oversensitivity leads me to sometimes not express my opinions when I should - working on this one. Thinking it out ahead of time helps.

Have a drink or two before the conversation and let it all hang out.

In Vino Veritas!

17) Over-indulgent when under stress - eat bad food and buy make-up/magazines that I don't need - Am working to replace these responses with exercise, drinking water etc.

You have no idea how bad ESTPs are at this, HAHHH!! We are the poster children of stress induced gluttony, and we stop at nothing to satiate such desires when they are triggered.

18) Put off jobs that are unpleasant or that I am not sure how to do - I'm sure this isn't totally type related, but I think avoidance is a greater tendancy with INFJs than Te driven people. Sometimes Ni and Ti create a loop that doesn't work well.

Yes, I've seen this. Personally, I get the shit I hate out of the way most of the time, but when I am having a bad "P" fit it is very hard for me to prioritize...

19) Stubborn - I tend to need a lot of convincing with a new idea before I will adopt it, because it involves changing the whole structure over again.

Muhahaaa....

20) Promising more than I can actually deliver - I want so badly to take care of everything that sometimes I overestimate what I am able to do. I've learned as a teacher to promise less and make sure I actually do it every time.

This is a sin of all overachievers, regardless of type.

21) Lazy about figuring out technological stuff or leave it to others - This one probably isn't INFJ related. I usually wish that some nice ENTP or ESTP is around to give me the Cliff's Notes on something new. While I am very curious about some things, I am not interested in discovering something for myself because I enjoy the process.

I fix your PC, you make me dinner, this deal has been working for my wife and I for 16 years.

22) Sometimes my very closest friends may feel that I disagree with them but don't express it. That is occasionally true, but if it is not a huge issue of integrity, I'm not sure how expressing it would be helpful. And yet, I don't think that I have to change my mind about it either, as long as I still like and respect them and am not being passive-aggressive. I think INFPs are much better friends in this respect.

Nothing wrong with this so long as you do not harbor anger, pain, or resentmetn with your disagreeance, and then hold it against them later, as they had no notification from you the "X" was an issue.

I'm wondering if any of these traits are influences by enneagram (1w2 so/sx) or if they fit with other INFJ's experiences (or those of other types with INFJs).

It would be interesting to compare INFJ 1w2s w/ INFJ 4w5s...

Oh yeah - and did I mention long-windedness? ...

Oh yeah, have you seen how much I type after I eat an Adderall? :yim_rolling_on_the_

Good stuff, Fidelia, keep it coming!

-Halla

 

[Aquarelle]

1)Delayed processing time - INFJs often seem to be basing their responses to the person in question on the last interaction they had with them, more often than the current one. They prefer to have time to think things over, which is why it's not a great idea to try to push an INFJ into making a decision before they feel they have had enough time to mull everything that has been brought up.

Yes - this is definitely me. Don't push me into making a decision or responding right away. One reason why I definitely prefer email over phone calls, in general - gives me more time to think before responding.

2) Need for resolution - What may look to some like being nitpicky or unforgiving or even holding onto the past often has more to do with their need to get everything put away in it's proper place before closing the chapter on it. Without doing so, it keeps coming up again and again.

Yup. This is the J, I think.

3) Considering every hobby, person or idea expressed as an extension of themselves - INFJs tend to be very self-protective, and rarely bring something up unless they have already implemented it into their main framework of thought or affection. Therefore when any of these things are dismissed or mocked, they will feel it as a personal rejection, unlike someone who tends to verbalize new ideas out loud.

I've never really thought about this, but I think it's true for me as well.

10) Hate being not in control of their emotions, yet sometimes underestimate how strong those emotions are till they are swamped by them. - (Note, not a good time for Ts to talk about how over-sensitive and emotional they are, as they despise being that way and are already terribly embarrassed).

This is true for me to a certain extent as well.

 

[sculpting]

I identify with this in a huge way! The sense of "us-ness" is paramount to me and what seems like judgement or criticism or control to Fi is (as 21% as said) actually a feeling of rejection or that we are in this alone doing most of the adjusting. While I can appreciate a person for them, if I'm in a relationship with them, it is mostly about what they and me combined together become. Someone who is able to brighten my beam when I cannot replenishes the reserves that I have to keep on is someone who I grow to love more and more. That may be making me feel cherished and protected, listened to or even caring enough to bring important things about myself to my attention in a loving way. It's always how what they add affects or tempers what I am alone. When they leave me alone instead to allow me to explore the colour that I am at that time (which they may prefer to do themselves), or if they only want to be left alone and feel my attempts to temper are intrusive, I don't know how to interact anymore. The things that I value and need are not important and I can't give them what they value and need, because I don't love that way.

so two questions:

1)Fe replenishment-Do you feel as though other Fe users can induce Fe in you and that you in turn can induce Fe in them? Thus by being with one another you increase that feeling of mutual caring??? I know that Fi users can have this effect on each other. Satine called it nudging, I call it glowing, udog described it as an aura of sorts.. I make ISTJs glow back at me...

2) WRT the adjusting. I adjust endlessly-but with Te. I not the other is unhappy with Fi, then use Te to try and design a solution. The Fi is never verbalized...but is there? I dunno.. More odd, I will use Ne to remodel my Fi expectations and judgments based upon what I perceive them being able to offer.