Cold war 2.0

[Virtual ghost]

It seems that Pokrovsk will hold the siege in the end.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Tesla’s plummeting sales risk its lucrative emissions credit earnings

EU lawmakers try to counter tech bros’ Washington lobbying

 

[Virtual ghost]

German election: CDU, SPD seek common ground

 

[Virtual ghost]

Macron urges Europe to boost defense spending to over 3 percent of GDP

 

[Red Herring]

I sensed that this would become a thing sooner or later but now the discussion has actually gained pace in Germany.

The Wikipedia article is getting a bit ahead of itself in the bolded bottom part but there will likely be some changes and there are increasingly discussions about this:

Between 1956 and 2011, Germany conscripted men subject to mandatory military service (German: Wehrpflicht, German: [ˈveːɐ̯ˌp͡flɪçt] ⓘ). After a proposal on 22 November 2010 by Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, the German Minister of Defence at the time, Germany put conscription into abeyance on 1 July 2011.[1][2] While the German constitution retains the legal instruments for reintroducing conscription in Germany, currently only men over 18 years of age can be conscripted whilst women cannot under any circumstance (auf keinen Fall) be required to "serve with a weapon" (Dienst mit der Waffe).[a] [4][5]

The constitution (called Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany)[4][5] and several special laws (e.g., Wehrpflichtgesetz[6]) regulate these duties and exceptions. In the last year of active conscription, men were obliged to either (1) serve six months in the military, which they could refuse, or alternatively (2) complete a civilian or honorary service of at least six months in a civil defence organisation. Families of those who were victims of or oppressed by the Nazi regime (predominantly Jews) were exempted from conscription, although some volunteered to serve.[7]

From 2025, 400,000 German men who have reached the age of 18 will have to complete a mandatory questionnaire. Male questionnaire recipients must provide information about their motivation for military service, and 40,000 men will then be compelled to attend a muster.[needs update] While military service itself will continue to be on a voluntary basis, the government hopes to recruit at least 5,000 additional German citizens of all genders for military service each year in this manner.[8][9] The participation of women and other genders in equality to men,[a] as regulated by the Self-Determination Act from 1 November 2024,[10] will remain a subject of discussion from 2024 but requires a change to the constitution.[11][12][13]

The goal is to pool about 200.000 additional reservists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany

The Bundeswehr currently has about 180.000 active soldiers and 930.000 reservists.

There are now some calling for a reintroduction of conscription, which could actually be done relatively easily by simply introducing a law. Conscripting women and third gender folks however would require a 2/3 parliamentary majority for a change of the constitution. They can and do serve voluntarily but currently couldn't be conscripted.

 

[Coriolis]

Just to be clear, Hamburg isn't perfect but it offers good quality of living while simultaneously being popular with hipsters. The 39% of the local Population are migrants or children of migrants (mainly Turks, Eastern Europeans and Afghans), half of those are not German citizens. The city has one of the largest trading ports in the world and several big companies. About 29% are (mostly moderate and barely practicing) protestants, some 60% follow no religion at all. 8% are Muslim. I could only find old data, but at some point Hamburg had the 4th largest GDP per person among European regions, after London, Luxemburg and Brussels. As far as the number of inhabitants goes it is somewhere between Phoenix and Houston (making it the second largest city after Berlin).

So the city manages to be run by generations of center-left politicians, has a lively progressive hipster art and startup scene, a high share of migrants, lots of publically funded arts and culture progamms, a strong economy and a fiscally stable budget.

I have fond memories of my time in Hamburg as an exchange student, and on later visits to my host family. Sadly we have fallen out of touch over the years. Glad to hear the place is still lively and cosmopolitan.

As I explained in the other thread I am coming from pretty much the opposite environment. Mono cultures fighting for dominance, tanks on the streets, concentration camps, mass destruction of infrastructure ... etc. Therefore I have honest question: why not make all of this with just Germans ? Why the melting pot ?

I would answer: because the effort to keep it "all Germans" or all whatever-one-group-you-want would itself undermine what you are getting. Policies of exclusion create practical, economic, and attitudinal barriers to the positive effects Red Herring is highlighting here. It is related to what kind of nation or state or city you want to be, which points to the humanitarian side you mentioned yourself.

To look at the US, our attitude has often been represented by our Statue of Liberty, with its message of "bring me your tired, your poor". Of course, this has throughout our history been opposed by some Americans, though usually they are opposing the latest group of immigrants - Chinese, Irish, Arabs, Mexicans - rather than the idea of immigration overall. Unless these opponents are our own indigenous people, they come from an immigrant background themselves.

Even overseas you may have heard about the slander Trump's crowd spread about immigrants in Springfield Ohio eating their neighbors' pets. This is a really good example. I lived near Springfield when I was in the Air Force. It was a small rather run-down city that seemed to be losing young people to better places and opportunities. During the pandemic, local employers had trouble finding workers. The city started reaching out to legal immigrants, mostly from Haiti, to come and fill these jobs, which they have done admirably. They work, pay taxes, attend church, and otherwise participate in the community as good neighbors. As with any significant influx of population, there have been some issues with local services keeping up, but remember: they are there with the encouragement of local business, to take jobs that were going unfilled. Local civic and charitable groups are working to ease the growing pains and integrate them into the town.

The diversity and intermingling of cultures in the US may be unusual, but across the world, populations are not stagnant. Whether due to war, natural disaster, shifts in climate or natural resources, groups move to seek a better life, bringing them in contact with culturally distinct groups. We can work together to accommodate everyone and learn from each other, or view these inevitable shifts through the lens of "us and them", which overlooks our common humanity, while doing no on any practical good in the long run.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Trump halt of arms aid to Ukraine ‘painful, but not fatal,’ Kyiv says

EU pushes emergency plan to send €150B in defense loans to governments

EU slams US tariffs on Canada, Mexico as threat to global trade

France floats taxing the rich to fund military buildup



This is it, the RED ALERT button has been pressed.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I have fond memories of my time in Hamburg as an exchange student, and on later visits to my host family. Sadly we have fallen out of touch over the years. Glad to hear the place is still lively and cosmopolitan.


I would answer: because the effort to keep it "all Germans" or all whatever-one-group-you-want would itself undermine what you are getting. Policies of exclusion create practical, economic, and attitudinal barriers to the positive effects Red Herring is highlighting here. It is related to what kind of nation or state or city you want to be, which points to the humanitarian side you mentioned yourself.

To look at the US, our attitude has often been represented by our Statue of Liberty, with it's message of "bring me your tired, your poor". Of course, this has throughout our history been opposed by some Americans, though usually they are opposing the latest group of immigrants - Chinese, Irish, Arabs, Mexicans - rather than the idea of immigration overall. Unless these opponents are our own indigenous people, they come from an immigrant background themselves.

Even overseas you may have heard about the slander Trump's crowd spread about immigrants in Springfield Ohio eating their neighbors' pets. This is a really good example. I lived near Springfield when I was in the Air Force. It was a small rather run-down city that seemed to be losing young people to better places and opportunities. During the pandemic, local employers had trouble finding workers. The city started reaching out to legal immigrants, mostly from Haiti, to come and fill these jobs, which they have done admirably. They work, pay taxes, attend church, and otherwise participate in the community as good neighbors. As with any significant influx of population, there have been some issues with local services keeping up, but remember: they are there with the encouragement of local business, to take jobs that were going unfilled. Local civic and charitable groups are working to ease the growing pains and integrate them into the town.

The diversity and intermingling of cultures in the US may be unusual, but across the world, populations are not stagnant. Whether due to war, natural disaster, shifts in climate or natural resources, groups move to seek a better life, bringing them in contact with culturally distinct groups. We can work together to accommodate everyone and learn from each other, or view these inevitable shifts through the lens of "us and them", which overlooks our common humanity, while doing no on any practical good in the long run.

Ok, but in US I understand it very well. USA is melting pot by definition and that is totally fine.
The tricky part is that Germany is a nation state that has much longer tradition than US. In other words introduction of multi culturalism is creating such a backlash that this really opens the question of "Is this worth it?". I understand the basic concept very well, my "problems" in understanding the concept are actually in the domain of "is it worth it?".


Plus there is one more detail in the whole mix, which is exactly why I added my carnage of childhood into the mix. Herring said that 40% of Hamburg are various none Germans, however for me the big question is what would happen if Russia parks the fleet next to the city and starts to hit it with everything they have. Can you be certain that all of those 40% will help out and be on your side? Especially if we consider that security in many German cities isn't that great even as it it. That is the question to which I never got fully clear answer. Multiculturalism as it in Western Europe is build on the premise that there will never be another major war and that Uncle Sam will come to the rescue if things get too bad. Therefore as you can see this is the era and the concept that is going completely down the drain in real time. It doesn't even have to be that bad in the area, it is enough that wars and inflation make many of the immigrants jobless. The question is what happens then ? Especially with millions of those that don't have the citizenship.


I know that these are hard question but when it comes to typical west European liberals and leftists I never really saw an explanation regarding this scenario. Even if it is becoming exponentially obvious that we are moving exactly in this direction. After all here we are talking about Germany, fairly large country that still has some distance from Russia. In other words Croatia has about 22 less people and directly borders on 4 pro Russian protectorates. Orban's Hungary that is publicly showing maps where he annexed about 2/3 of Croatia (what was the case in mid 19th century). Also then there is Serbia with which we had war in the 90s. The biggest war in Europe between WW2 and the mess in Ukraine. There is also Bosnia that is completely dysfuctional country that has internatonal representative at the top of the government. The Serbian half of the country is probalby the most pro Russian territory in the whole mainland Europe. Plus then there is Montemegro that is also increasingly pro Russian and there are talks about exit from all western associations. If that is put to a referendum it is quite possible that this will pass. In other words if Ukraine falls Russia will get direct land connection too all of these countries and that means that mine will be next (while we haven't fully rebuild even form the last war). Therefore when I say that I don't understand multi cultural society this is basically what is on my mind. Yeah, it kinda works when the times are good, the real question is what happens when the times are quite bad. If there is some diversity ok, but if you have place like mentioned Hamburg that is almost half foreign then it is indeed legit question to ask what happens when you shake the place to the core.

 

[Red Herring]

The diversity and intermingling of cultures in the US may be unusual, but across the world, populations are not stagnant. Whether due to war, natural disaster, shifts in climate or natural resources, groups move to seek a better life, bringing them in contact with culturally distinct groups. We can work together to accommodate everyone and learn from each other, or view these inevitable shifts through the lens of "us and them", which overlooks our common humanity, while doing no on any practical good in the long run.

There is a famous quote from the play The Devil's General by Carl Zuckmayer, written in exile in the 1940s. I'll translate to the best of my ability

From the Rhine. From the great mill of people. From the winepress of Europe! ... And now imagine your line of ancestry - since the birth of Christ. There was a Roman captain, a swarthy fellow, brown as a ripe olive, he taught a blond girl Latin. Then a Jewish spice trader entered the family, he was a serious person, converted to Christianity before the wedding and founded the house's Catholic tradition. - And then came a Greek doctor or a Celtic legionaire, a Swiss mercenary from Graubünden, a Swedish horseman, a Napoleonic soldier, a deserted Cossack, a charcoal burner from the Black Forest, an wandering miller's apprentice from Alsace, a fat seaman from Holland, a Magyar, a Pandur, an officer from Vienna, a French actor, a Bohemian musician - all of that lived, scuffled, drank and sang along the Rhine and begot children - and - and Goethe was from the same pot, and Beethoven und Gutenberg and Matthias Grünewald and - oh, just look it up in the encyclopedia. They were the best, my dear! The best in the world! And why? Because that's where the peoples mixed. Mixed - like water from sources and brooks and rivers, in order to form a great, lively stream. From the Rhine - that is to say: from the Occident. That is natural nobility. That is race. Be proud of it, Hartmann - and hang your grandmother's documentation in the loo!. Cheers!

(The context is that a character called Hartmann expressed concern over his possibly not completely Aryan lineage)

Today Berlin is the home of almost 4 million people, a quarter of them are foreign citizens with about 170 different countries of origin.

 

[Red Herring]

Ok, but in US I understand it very well. USA is melting pot by definition and that is totally fine.
The tricky part is that Germany is a nation state that has much longer tradition than US.

The idea of the nation state is a product of the 19th century and thus relatively new. Germany only came together as one state in 1871. It was a cultural cluster most of the time. Most of the great nations in history were multiethnic states.

In other words introduction of multi culturalism is creating such a backlash that this really opens the question of "Is this worth it?". I understand the basic concept very well, my "problems" in understanding the concept are actually in the domain of "is it worth it?".

The backlash is to rapid change due to fast waves of migration, especially from cultures that are rather distant from our own and thus take more of an effort to integrate. However, as I already explained, we can't survive as a nation withut at least some form of influx. So we need to control and stear it better, not shut it off.

Plus there is one more detail in the whole mix, which is exactly why I added my carnage of childhood into the mix. Herring said that 40% of Hamburg are various none Germans, however for me the big question is what would happen if Russia parks the fleet next to the city and starts to hit it with everything they have. Can you be certain that all of those 40% will help out and be on your side? Especially if we consider that security in many German cities isn't that great even as it it. That is the question to which I never got fully clear answer. Multiculturalism as it in Western Europe is build on the premise that there will never be another major war and that Uncle Sam will come to the rescue if things get too bad. Therefore as you can see this is the era and the concept that is going completely down the drain in real time. It doesn't even have to be that bad in the area, it is enough that wars and inflation make many of the immigrants jobless. The question is what happens then ? Especially with millions of those that don't have the citizenship.

40% of Hamburgers have a "migratory background", meaning that they or a parent were born without German citizenship. That doesn't neccessarily mean recent arrivals, it could be anything between "Mum is half-Danish" and "I got here last week from Beijing". They might very well be born as German citizens themselves or have become naturalized citizens. Also, 60% of all migration to Germany since 1950 is from other European countries and thus (culturally speaking) largely unproblematic. My neighbor across the street is Dutch. He has two children with his German wife. 75% of that family therefor has a "migratory background" even though it is equally true that 75% of that family has German citizenship and speaks German as their native language. My daughter has a friend at school whose mother is German and his father is Argentinian. Everyone in that family except for the mother is technically considered to have a "migratory background".

People with a "migratory background" are often citizens. Even if they aren't citizens they might still have been born here and grown up here. I don't see why they would be less likely to defend the place where they were born and raised and have friends and family. About a quarter of the people in Germany have a "migratory background". Guess what the share of people with a migratory background in the German army is - it happens to also be a quarter! So far only citizens can serve in the army but last year a debate was started over opening the army up to non-citizens from other EU countries or even offering citizenship in exchange for military service (a bit like they did in ancient Rome).

I just checked for some data on other Western European nations. In the UK the percentage of migrants in the armed forces also roughly equals that of the general population (about 13% each).

Now, keep in mind that in both countries you need to be a citizen to serve, so if only a subgroup of migrants can join and yet their share in the army equals that their share in society that means that in both countries citizens with a migratory background are even overrepresented in the army. In fact in Germany they are about twice as likely to serve in the army.

In the case of somebody who only recently came here I would understand your concerns, but for people born here or who have lived here a long time? That idea has a bit of a Dreyfusian taste to it.

I know that these are hard question but when it comes to typical west European liberals and leftists I never really saw an explanation regarding this scenario. Even if it is becoming exponentially obvious that we are moving exactly in this direction. After all here we are talking about Germany, fairly large country that still has some distance from Russia. In other words Croatia has about 22 less people and directly borders on 4 pro Russian protectorates. Orban's Hungary that is publicly showing maps where he annexed about 2/3 of Croatia (what was the case in mid 19th century). Also then there is Serbia with which we had war in the 90s. The biggest war in Europe between WW2 and the mess in Ukraine. There is also Bosnia that is completely dysfuctional country that has internatonal representative at the top of the government. The Serbian half of the country is probalby the most pro Russian territory in the whole mainland Europe. Plus then there is Montemegro that is also increasingly pro Russian and there are talks about exit from all western associations. If that is put to a referendum it is quite possible that this will pass. In other words if Ukraine falls Russia will get direct land connection too all of these countries and that means that mine will be next (while we haven't fully rebuild even form the last war). Therefore when I say that I don't understand multi cultural society this is basically what is on my mind. Yeah, it kinda works when the times are good, the real question is what happens when the times are quite bad. If there is some diversity ok, but if you have place like mentioned Hamburg that is almost half foreign then it is indeed legit question to ask what happens when you shake the place to the core.

See above. I would also argue that it is actually nationalism and ethnocentrism that has destabilized the Balkans and much of Eastern Europe for so long.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The idea of the nation state is a product of the 19th century and thus relatively new. Germany only came together as one state in 1871. It was a cultural cluster most of the time. Most of the great nations in history were multiethnic states.

The backlash is to rapid change due to fast waves of migration, especially from cultures that are rather distant from our own and thus take more of an effort to integrate. However, as I already explained, we can't survive as a nation withut at least some form of influx. So we need to control and stear it better, not shut it off.

When I say multiculturalism I mean modern multi culturalism of mixing white people of the developed world with various people of color from all over the world. What in certain sense is kinda specific process.

40% of Hamburgers have a "migratory background", meaning that they or a parent were born without German citizenship. That doesn't neccessarily mean recent arrivals, it could be anything between "Mum is half-Danish" and "I got here last week from Beijing". They might very well be born as German citizens themselves or have become naturalized citizens. Also, 60% of all migration to Germany since 1950 is from other European countries and thus (culturally speaking) largely unproblematic. My neighbor across the street is Dutch. He has two children with his German wife. 75% of that family therefor has a "migratory background" even though it is equally true that 75% of that family has German citizenship and speaks German as their native language. My daughter has a friend at school whose mother is German and his father is Argentinian. Everyone in that family except for the mother is technically considered to have a "migratory background".

People with a "migratory background" are often citizens. Even if they aren't citizens they might still have been born here and grown up here. I don't see why they would be less likely to defend the place where they were born and raised and have friends and family. About a quarter of the people in Germany have a "migratory background". Guess what the share of people with a migratory background in the German army is - it happens to also be a quarter! So far only citizens can serve in the army but last year a debate was started over opening the army up to non-citizens from other EU countries or even offering citizenship in exchange for military service (a bit like they did in ancient Rome).

I just checked for some data on other Western European nations. In the UK the percentage of migrants in the armed forces also roughly equals that of the general population (about 13% each).

Now, keep in mind that in both countries you need to be a citizen to serve, so if only a subgroup of migrants can join and yet their share in the army equals that their share in society that means that in both countries citizens with a migratory background are even overrepresented in the army. In fact in Germany they are about twice as likely to serve in the army.

In the case of somebody who only recently came here I would understand your concerns, but for people born here or who have lived here a long time? That idea has a bit of a Dreyfusian taste to it.

I realized that not everyone is recent arrival and how things are going, but that doesn't change my basic question. How such society acts under severe stress ? (like what we are watching in Ukraine) One thing is who can serve the army and another is how things look like when the bombs start falling. In other words when you have many hostile neighbors as my country that is fairly legit question. Especially in the times when Uncle Sam is losing interest.

See above. I would also argue that it is actually nationalism and ethnocentrism that has destabilized the Balkans and much of Eastern Europe for so long.

Of course that nationalism did that. However the problem is also that people like you don't understand that they are throwing multi cultural gasoline on the nationalist bonfire that still isn't put out. Too many people simply aren't mentally ready for what you are suggesting. My pro EU government is at the edge of collapse as we speak, especially since vice prime minister got arrested. What is because his buddies on the right thought that he is too supportive of the EU and everything that comes with it. So they released various private videos where he shots randomly out of a car, or in his backyard, or how he gives explosives to his kids to play with them. However it is quite questionable if we can get another pro EU majority in the parliament. Especially since just 2 month ago my "Russia friendly" president won 2nd term in the run off against pro western rival with BRUTAL 49 point lead (74.7% vs 25.3%) . While his party insults people from the collective west often and it even claimed that SPD betrayed left wing ideals when it joined the support for Ukraine. However stuff like this never really ends in Western media since some people would probably get traumas out of that.

People like you just don't seem to understand that the very foundations of how you picture the world do not apply everywhere. In the environment where BSW style of politics can get 49 point win in popular vote on elections you can't expect that you will set the trends. Therefore it is best to keep distance until people calm down.


I know that I am being kinda rude but some things need to be said.

 

[Virtual ghost]

‘We’re in danger,’ NGOs say as German conservatives join far-right crackdown on civil society

Just as I said things are going towards boiling over.

 

[Virtual ghost]

 

[ygolo]

I don't want to make light of the situation, but what do you think of Jon Stewart's analogies here:

He calls it a "Heel turn," changing from a "face" to a "heel."

 

[Red Herring]

When I say multiculturalism I mean modern multi culturalism of mixing white people of the developed world with various people of color from all over the world. What in certain sense is kinda specific process.

"White" vs "people of color" is kind of irrelevant, that is pure optics. But the difference in values and experiences between developed and developing countries can become an issue.

I realized that not everyone is recent arrival and how things are going, but that doesn't change my basic question. How such society acts under severe stress ? (like what we are watching in Ukraine)

That is impossible to answer because we haven't been in such a situation in the last 80 years. But I find the idea weird that people would be less willing to defend themselves or their communities simply because they have different roots or ancestry.

One thing is who can serve the army and another is how things look like when the bombs start falling.

Yet again, impossible to answer. But you missed my point. It's not that they can join that army, it's that they do join the army which to me is a clear sign of identification with the country and a willingness to potentially risk their lifes for it.

However the problem is also that people like you don't understand that they are throwing multi cultural gasoline on the nationalist bonfire that still isn't put out. Too many people simply aren't mentally ready for what you are suggesting.

They might not be ready. That doesn't change the facts of demographics. What they are going to do about it is up to them. I am not telling Eastermn Europe what to do. I am merely answering your questions about Western Europe.

However stuff like this never really ends in Western media since some people would probably get traumas out of that.

Nah, it's more that events from the Balkans rarely make it into the news because we are more focused on our Western neighbors and above all the US. Smaller countries in general rarely make it into the news (but I did hear about the recent incident in Serbia's parliament ...WTF?!)

People like you just don't seem to understand that the very foundations of how you picture the world do not apply everywhere.

I think you are projecting. I never told you or some foreign country what to do. I was only describing how things are in Germany.

I know that I am being kinda rude but some things need to be said.

No, you are not. You are just to the point in a rather Slavic manner which I as a German can appreciate.

 

[Red Herring]

Germany is often described as a "Kulturnation", which I'd translate as "culture-based nation", in contrast to, say, France, which is a "Staatsnation" (= state-based nation). Now, that doesn't meean that France is any less cultured or civilized, but that due to historical reasons the concept of "France" is more closely mapped to the territory and political state of France than to French culture while "Germany" has existed as a cultural concept describing a cultural area or group long before there was a modern political state of that name. The idea is that culture precedes statehood. The disadvantage is that you can't just join in like a golf club. The advantage is that you can join in, no matter where you were born or what your ethnicity is.

I'd like to show you a few German celebrities.

This is Yared Dibaba, a tv host. He was born in Ethiopia. His father took him to Germany for a few years when he was still a baby, then he returned to Ethiopia but went to a German school there. The family then later returned to Germany as war refugees. He grew up near where I grew up, became a citizen as a young adult. He grew up speaking more German than Oromo and what distinguishes him is that in addition to Oromo, German, English and a bit of Amharic he also speaks fluent Plattdeutsch ... Low German, an endangered local Northern German dialect, closely related to Dutch and Danish. Most people still speaking it are elderly farmers in rural areas. In a way that makes him culturally more rooted in the area around Hamburg than many ethnic Germans that were born there. Here's him speaking in Plattdeutsch about his experience and how learning it can help migrants:

He wasn't born here and he doesn't look German but not only is he a citizen, he is part of German society and German cultural life. He is German.

This is Mojib Latif, a prominent climate scientist. He was born in Hamburg to Pakistani parents in the 1950s. He was born here, he grew up here, German is his first language and he is a citizen. He doesn't look German but he is German is just about every other way.

This is Mai Thi Nguyen Kim, a well-known science journalist. She was born in Germany to Vietnamese parents. Her father was a chemist for BASF, she and her brother also became chemists. She is a native speaker of German and with the exception of a short stench at Harvard university she spend all her life in Germany as a citizen. She's German.

This is Rafik Schami. He was born in Syria into a Christian family, came to Germany as a young adult to study, taught himself German, got a PhD in chemistry at Heidelberg university and became a writer - I grew up with his stories. Like Joseph Conrad or Vladimir Nabokov, he managed to become a very successful writer in a language that was not his mother tongue. His Syrian identity is a vital part of his work as a writer, but he is also German.

This is Özlem Türeci. She is a professor for immunotherapy and co-developer of the mRNA Covid vaccine. Her father was a Turkish surgeon. Her husband and partner in the creation of the vaccine, Uğur Şahin, is the son of Turkish migrant laborers. She grew up here and when she speaks English she has a German accent. She is not only a citizen, she is German.

This is Ranga Yogeshwar, another famous science journalist. He speaks native level German (in addition to English, Hindi and another language) and he lives in Germany, he is super integrated into German society but he is not German. Why? Because he is from Luxemburg!

... the other language he speaks like a native is Luxemburgish.


There are many more I could name.

I am not trying to claim these people as Germans because they are highperformers. I am trying to show different ways one can be German without being "ethnically" German ... mainly through knowledge of the language as well as openess to German culture. The education system plays a central role in making this possible.

 

[Virtual ghost]

"White" vs "people of color" is kind of irrelevant, that is pure optics. But the difference in values and experiences between developed and developing countries can become an issue.

Of course, but the problem is that the skin color can be indicator that someone is from very different culture. What can be a problem. Therefore when such people create culture war with local radicals that can turn into evident problem for everyone. Especially when economy and general stability are going down the drain. I am simply under the impression that some people don't recognize the situation we are currently in.

That is impossible to answer because we haven't been in such a situation in the last 80 years. But I find the idea weird that people would be less willing to defend themselves or their communities simply because they have different roots or ancestry.

In last German elections weren't there gangs of guys from eastern Europe that demolished many object pretending to be Greens ? (like: this things are bad for the environment)

Wasn't a chunk of Hamburg port sold to China recently ? From what I gathered it was Bosnian immigrant that was in charge of the deal/selling ?



Speaking of Hamburg: what happens if Russian fleet truly comes and guys like Erdogan and Vucic say to their diaspora that they should start the rebellion ?

It is true that we can't really be sure what would happen but as I guy who went through such a "rebellion+invasion scenario" this is all kinda red flag in my book. Especially in current global situation.

Yet again, impossible to answer. But you missed my point. It's not that they can join that army, it's that they do join the army which to me is a clear sign of identification with the country and a willingness to potentially risk their lifes for it.

Ok, but many do not. I mean ok, we can't know for sure.

They might not be ready. That doesn't change the facts of demographics. What they are going to do about it is up to them. I am not telling Eastermn Europe what to do. I am merely answering your questions about Western Europe.

What I meant by this is that people similar to you are doing this. What in the end is rocking the boat and I don't see that as a smart thing to do at the moment. When Slavs explode there will surely be a mess. That is one of the constants of history.

Nah, it's more that events from the Balkans rarely make it into the news because we are more focused on our Western neighbors and above all the US. Smaller countries in general rarely make it into the news (but I did hear about the recent incident in Serbia's parliament ...WTF?!)

What I meant with that statement was simply that a lot of stuff doesn't make it into the western news. My impression is that they trying to subtly hide the amount of mess that is currently going on in Eastern Europe. Especially since war in Ukraine has messed up the economy and supply chains for pretty much everyone.

I mean that incident is just a part of how eastern Europe is doing "democracy". It happened before it will happen again.

Election debates may now look much better either.

To the typical western person this is basically unthinkable but here this really isn't all that strange.
In a sense this is exactly why I am not sure that importing mass of people from these countries is all that smart in the end.

No, you are not. You are just to the point in a rather Slavic manner which I as a German can appreciate.

The thing is that you said that you don't really want to talk about this subject. While in the end it turned out that I dragged the discussion into this anyway.

 

[Red Herring]

At one point in the video Dibaba describes how his family ended up speaking German among themselves although they were Ethiopians in Ethiopia.

 

[Red Herring]

Therefore when such people create culture war with local radicals that can turn into evident problem for everyone. Especially when economy and general stability are going down the drain. I am simply under the impression that some people don't recognize the situation we are currently in.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Who is creating a culture war with what radicals?

In last German elections weren't there gangs of guys from eastern Europe that demolished many object pretending to be Greens ? (like: this things are bad for the environment)

Two (or three, not sure anymore) people were paid by a Russian citizen to put construction foam into the exhaust pipes of cars and leave behind election stickers of the Greens.

Wasn't a chunk of Hamburg port sold to China recently ? From what I gathered it was Bosnian immigrant that was in charge of the deal/selling ?

A company that owned some terminals in the habor sold 24.99% of a terminal to a Chinese company. I am not aware of any Bosnian involved, the head of the company is German. I found no Google result for "Hamburg harbor sale China Bosnia" that included "Bosnia" or "Bosnian".

Speaking of Hamburg: what happens if Russian fleet truly comes and guys like Erdogan and Vucic say to their diaspora that they should start the rebellion ?

I don't see any scenerio where that could possibly happen. Most Turks wouldn't do it and I don't think there are enough Serbs to do it

What I meant by this is that people similar to you are doing this. What in the end is rocking the boat and I don't see that as a smart thing to do at the moment. When Slavs explode there will surely be a mess. That is one of the constants of history.

I don't think Western Europe is pushing Eastern Europe to become more multicultural. They do want them to share part of the burden of refugee reception as members of the EU family, that is true, but that contribution could be financial or logistical or whatever. As I have often said, we need a reform of Dublin 2.

What I meant with that statement was simply that a lot of stuff doesn't make it into the western news. My impression is that they trying to subtly hide the amount of mess that is currently going on in Eastern Europe.

Could be a large conspiracy, could be people just being ignorant of what happens in smaller countries (unless it makes for entertaining television).

To the typical western person this is basically unthinkable but here this really isn't all that strange.
In a sense this is exactly why I am not sure that importing mass of people from these countries is all that smart in the end.

Here I would agree. They will have to let go of certain things in order to function over here. Especially when it comes to the Guilt–shame–fear spectrum of cultures. My husband often points out that many of his migrant students live in an honor and shame based culture and their ethnically German fellow working class classmates are adopting this culture. Fistfights over preceived insults. "Yo, he insulted my mother, so I had to smash his face". On the other hand, less emphasis on individual conscience and responsibility, let alone protestant work ethics.

The thing is that you said that you don't really want to talk about this subject. While in the end it turned out that I dragged the discussion into this anyway.

Well, yeah, the world tends to drag us into things we'd rather not be dragged into.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Speaking of Bosnia. With current events that country at this point only exists on the paper. Since there is basically nothing that still genuinely connects the two sides. This political fault line is exactly the one that started WW1 and now things are again on the edge. Especially since Russia has the interest to start second front of the war in Ukraine. Because that would spread Europe extra thin, especially if US gives up on any of this.