[ISTP] Can you spot the fake istp?

[Dr Mobius]

What are u talking about? The fall of communism?????
It was developed independently of mbti in the 70's. How can you not know that?

Are you afraid the Commies are going to come and get you or something? ha ha ha That's fucking hilarious.

On the other hand, there is also a lot in common between these two theories. Main fields of application are the same: family and business consulting, education etc. When first publications about MBTT appeared in the former USSR (a very short overview appeared in 1984, and several popular books were translated since 1994), socionists found a lot of useful information there.

For crying out loud do you actually read anything you post? Because if you did you would have noticed that all the answers to your questions are in there. Firstly notice how it says USSR? The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, next notice the dates 1994, which was five years after the Berlin Wall, fell down, and three years since Gorbachev made the famous phone call. This is to say it is after the fall of communist Russia; which had you bothered to read the link you so graciously provided, you would have come across the part where it says it was developed in Lithuania (part of the USSR) in the 1970’s, by Augusta with her Model A.

We believe in fruitful cooperation between these two branches of Jungian typology is possible; we should not forget about the differences, but we believe they can be resolved.[/I]

Yeah this actually supports my statements. Notice the key word here believe, as in hope that one day the differences between the two systems can be resolved, as in I hope that one day I will win the lottery. Not that they have in fact been resolved, and are now compatible; if your very own experts are telling you that they haven’t figured it out yet, who are with such confidence to state otherwise?

Your first point. (I'll color yours brown cos of your shitty condescending attitude. )

Clever , but I’m sure if you put that much effort in to actually reading your sources we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all.

See. One says theory, the other one says abstract. They're basically the same thing.

Theory and abstract is not the same thing. A theory at some point has a hypothesis, which at some point will be tested to prove or disprove the theory. Abstract has no such form, I mean consider Picasso and abstract painting; the purpose of abstract is to the abstract itself.

You're just cherry picking, to make your point. Why did you leave out the second paragraph of the mbti description that says they approach life by analysing the theory?
WHY????

No I was not cherry picking, cherry picking would have only been applicable if I was doing some sort of similar versus dissimilar comparison. All I was doing was showing contradictions in the profile parts where they obviously do not match up.

They're not so different.

Look if you brought up all the profiles for INTs they would undoubtedly look similar, hell if you brought up all the IXTX profiles they would have similarities. But the fact of the matter is that they do not much up on key points, no matter how similar they may be.

I'll leave it at that for now cos I have shit to do. I'll answer in more detail when I have more time.

Please don’t bother I’m out you can go back to posting videos of people who apparently infuriate you. Look it is really well known that MBTI and socionics suffer from problems trying to cross over so I’m going to leave you with a few links, but honestly just google MBTI and Socionics conversion, and see for yourself the complete lack of consensus.

http://www.socionics.com/articles/howto.htm
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/130-Introduction-to-Socionics
http://socionic.info/et/asimbieng.html

 

[Eye of the Potato]

You know. I didn't come here to argue with istj's. I came here to show the istp's what an istp looks like and what an enfp looks like. Their introverted sensing and their extroverted thinking will let them know what's what.

The istp in the video had a lot of helpful advice for istp's. He's 55. He's an elder. He should be respected and listened to. If the istp kids today listened to what he has to say, and didn't bolt out the door and drive off at high speed, every time they have to talk about their feelings, and understand what they mean. There's nothing to be afraid of, it's all good. Understanding the emotional side to reality would make their lives much easier and with a deeper understanding of things they'd be in a position to master all sorts of very cool shit. Once this information gets into the minds of thousands of istp's, en masse, lots of cool shit will begin to happen. I want to live in a world where cool shit gets made and cool shit gets said and cool shit gets done. I want to live in a world where istp's see themselves as supermen who aren't afraid to try anything. I don't want to live in a world with brooding istp's hiding in their bedrooms with their Xbox's. There's no need for it.

The only way to resolve the mbti/socionics debacle is for mbti to be gracious enough to learn from Socioncs, the way the Socionists were gracious enough to say that mbti had some merit. And admit that they got the function order wrong.

There are istj's on this forum and PerC, who have typed themselves istp because they used the method Socionics uses, which is to make an effort first to learn how the functions are defined, and base your typing on which functions you predominantly use. They are on an mbti forum,using Socionics methods, and ironically most of them detest Socionics. Which would make sense, because istj's don't typically like that which is foreign. And if they spent a long time being accustomed to mbti, I can see why they'd want to shun the other.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

I know one istp very well. You only need to see one tree to know what a tree looks like.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

They can be blunt in their presentation, and often communicate in terms of the larger strategy, leaving out the details.

Although INTJs aren’t usually warm or particularly gregarious, they tend to have a self-assured manner with people based on their own security in their intelligence. They relate their ideas with confidence, and once they have arrived at a conclusion they fully expect others to see the wisdom in their perceptions. They are typically perfectionists and appreciate an environment of intellectual challenge. They enjoy discussing interesting ideas, and may get themselves into trouble because of their take-no-prisoners attitude: if someone’s beliefs don’t make logical sense, the Mastermind typically has no qualms about pointing that out.

LIIs may be highly sensitive to the signs of emotional approval that they receive from others. They may be highly appreciative of displays of emotional warmth and friendliness. They may find normative emotional expectations placed on them to be stifling, and tend to prefer nonjudgmental environments without character scrutiny. Additionally, for fear of emotional reprisal, LIIs often tend to be rather noncritical of others' actions.

Contradiction Four
Quote one states a blunt and forceful interactive form of communication. Quote two reinforces this and relates a calm confident persona. Quote three shows someone who is uncomfortable and scared often, and who needs to feel safe to communicate properly, and someone who is in no shape or form self-confident





Where you're going wrong here is that you're overlooking the fact that the third one is describing an intj when dealing with emotions. He's only low in self confidence in this area. That's why he can sometimes be blunt. I'm not pointing that out to argue. I'm pointing it out for you to consider.

And the difference between the top two and the third one, was that the top two were referring to peoples illogical beliefs. The third one describes being non critical of others actions.

 

[Dr Mobius]

Oh damn it, look I’m not trying to pick a fight by stepping in here again I swear, I’ll leave after this. It’s just that you seem a little lost and confused by the reaction you’re getting from MBTI forums. I just think that maybe you aren’t aware of the direction that MBTI is and has been taking for some time. MBTI and cognitive functions want to be taken seriously by the APA, (The American Psychological Association; the biggest and most influential psychology institute in the world.)For that to happen they need to meet set criteria using scientific methodology (double blind studies, MRI scans, consistent and able to be reproduced data.). If they were to succeed MBTI would go from being used mainly in large scale businesses, to being used everywhere and for everything in the western world, in other words an insanely lucrative position to be in. This is why there is no push from the MBTI side to try to integrate with Socionics; because that wouldn’t help meet that goal. That attitude has a flow on effect, which leads to the apathy you have no doubt in counted. Anyway I hope that was in some way enlightening, and I’ll leave you to it.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

Oh damn it, look I’m not trying to pick a fight by stepping in here again I swear, I’ll leave after this. It’s just that you seem a little lost and confused by the reaction you’re getting from MBTI forums. I just think that maybe you aren’t aware of the direction that MBTI is and has been taking for some time. MBTI and cognitive functions want to be taken seriously by the APA, (The American Psychological Association; the biggest and most influential psychology institute in the world.)For that to happen they need to meet set criteria using scientific methodology (double blind studies, MRI scans, consistent and able to be reproduced data.). If they were to succeed MBTI would go from being used mainly in large scale businesses, to being used everywhere and for everything in the western world, in other words an insanely lucrative position to be in. This is why there is no push from the MBTI side to try to integrate with Socionics; because that wouldn’t help meet that goal. That attitude has a flow on effect, which leads to the apathy you have no doubt in counted. Anyway I hope that was in some way enlightening, and I’ll leave you to it.

And how are mbti forums going to get anywhere, when there are istj's typing themselves istp's, because they are going by the functions, (like Socionists do) and there are istp's typing themselves istp, because they are approaching it from a different angle, and going by the descriptions? So what happens is there are istj's and istp's mixed in together on the istp forum. This is creating confusion and chaos. How is confusion and chaos a good thing?

The FACT that istj's study Ti and come to the conclusion they are istp. Because it is a FACT that mbti calls (Ti, Se) users istp. Proves that mbti has not been logical in their approach to ordering the functions. The FACT that Socionists do approach it in this way proves that mbti people, can learn something from Socionics. And if they want to have a lucrative business it would be in their best interests to humble themselves and admit that they were wrong. This place is total chaos and most people don't understand the functions at all. This is quite clear when you hear someone saying they are an expressive istp because they are a 5w6 or whatever enneagram bullshit they decided to buy into.

The istj's actually went to the bother of studying Ti, and how it functions and manifests, and because that is the function they recognise in themselves, they looked to the mbti type that uses that function, saw it was istp, and lumped themselves in with a type that is different to them.

I had the istp I know look around PerC before, and he said, "I'm not like those people" And he was right. He wasn't like those people. And that is because most of those people were istj. And he wasn't like the istj's in the istj forum either, because they were mostly actual real istj's. Just like the one in the istj video I posted.

I remember actually thinking how boring all the istp's in PerC seemed. I was thinking maybe was it a cultural difference at the time, that maybe American istp's were just boring to me or something. There were only a tiny fraction of istp's on PerC who I found interesting, and they were the istp's who were real istp's.
The Ti, Se istj's bored me and baffled me as to why they couldn't comprehend me. Now it's obvious why. I was screaming BIG PICTURE!!!!! FEELINGS FEELINGS!!!!!!! And they were screaming DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS!!!!!! USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN YOU MORON!!!!!!! They are my opposite, so of course we were going to come into conflict. And that is why I found them uninteresting.

All these facts prove that the istj's here and on PerC have a better grasp of what Ti is, than Myers Briggs did when they messed up the function order and called
Si, Te istj and Ti, Se istp.

Don't assume I don't know what's going on. Step back and think about what I am saying.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

Duality isn't all rainbows and moonbeams. It's no picnic for an enfp to have an istp as her knight in shining armour. Istp's can be some of the biggest assholes of all. They're cold and they don't give a shit what you're going through emotionally. That's not exactly what I dreamed of when I imagined my ideal partner. I don't buy into it just because it sounds so romantic and written in the stars. I buy into it because dual relationships help you to survive in the world. They help you overcome your difficulties. How can something that helps you to survive be a bad thing? I think we can all agree, no good can come from being in a long term relationship with your opposite, so if that is true, why can't people believe that good things can happen when duals get together?

 

[Eye of the Potato]

And if you think about the function order for enfp. Ne is focused far out there, way off out into the distance, it's an arial view. It looks beyond. It's focused far out beyond the body. And Si, is focused inside the body. You can't focus way far out there and inside your body at the same time. How can you consciously and cogently look in two different directions at the same time? Try looking up and down at the same time. It's impossible. And you can't look out and in at the same time either.
Your bodily sensations have to be unconscious and run in the background, while Ne is focusing on looking through time and space.
I can consciously look out at the world in it's concrete form and use Se consciously if I make an effort to. And I can be consciously aware and looking at it because it goes in the same direction as Ne. It's like looking up and being able to see the lamp posts as well as the stars , but not being able to look down and see the grass beneath my feet or even my feet at the same time . I'm not consciously thinking about my feet, they just work unconsciously, like my Si has to do.



Understanding this proves to me that Myers Briggs didn't understand the functions and they got it wrong when they said that an enfp's functions are ordered Ne, Fi, Te, Si.

Ne and Si are like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh5kZ4uIUC0


Well not quite. Ha ha ha

 

[Concur_Withall]

They're both fake.

I call shenanigans.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

Who can tell which one of these is an mbti intp?


value knowledge above all else, objectively critical in their analysis, become very excited over abstractions and theories, they spend a lot of time inside their minds musing over theories, prone to inertia, has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings, usually not in-tune with how people are feeling, have difficulty expressing their emotions verbally, emotions are all or nothing, they will listen to amateurs if their ideas are useful, and will ignore the experts if theirs are not, drawn to the esoteric, central goal is to understand and seek truth. Prone to self doubt. They are content to design the system and prefer if someone else takes over in implementing their ideas. Prone to speculate about religion




definite and self-confident, highly theoretical, gift for seizing opportunities which others might not even notice, see what might be, trust their vision of the possibilities, regardless of what others think. As adults, are focused on attaining their inner goals and standards. the most self-confident of all types, using thinking in the form of empirical logic, If an idea or position makes sense, it will be adopted, if it doesn't, it won't, regardless of who took the position or generated the idea, natural brainstormers, always open to new concepts and, in fact, aggressively seeking them.not confined to the expressible logical, They can be quite ruthless in the implementation of systems, seldom counting personal cost in terms of time and energy. Theories which cannot be made to work are quickly discarded, they work long and hard and are steady in their pursuit of goals. live to see systems translated into substance. live in the world of ideas and strategic planning, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. tremendous value and need for systems and organization. Of all the types they are least likely to speculate about religion.

 

[Standuble]

The first one is the intp (according to online type descriptions anyway).

I don't know why you keep making these posts. The people on this site aren't infantile.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

I didn't say they were. There is confusion on this site though. I'm trying to point out the logical inconsistencies in mbti. People can think about what I'm saying or not. It's up to them.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

are often characterized by their inertia, very indecisive, view of reality is a mental and often esoteric one, typically out of touch with expressing their emotional states. generally place moderate to minimal importance on such matters as cleanliness, comfort, and sensory stimuli, place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work, often characterized by a nagging and constant sense of doubt, contradiction, and misinformation. frequently tend to question their own position. their desire for efficient allocation of resources may extend to less tangible forms, such as the allocation of resources in a game or real world political (ideological) scenario, or the efficiency of a computer program or corresponding piece of code. may not directly associate their knowledge with any given purpose rather than to further their own understanding. may develop a chronic habit of disinterestedly and lazily spurning menial errands, Most somehow manage to spend most of their time in their minds regardless of the responsibilities with which they are burdened. might devote a great deal of time to his inner thoughts, very little attention is likely to be paid to such tasks as household maintenance or cleanliness, which he sees as trivial matters not deserving of his time or effort. They may commonly be pervasively plagued by gnawing doubts on any topic that they contemplate.




They may live highly structured or regimented lifestyles and can be quite proactive. greatly in tune with novel connections and the possibilities that exist which they could see their systems and analyses applied towards, adept at organizing their understanding into structured thought, self confident, They may be extremely precise in their understanding and can tend to strive for highly detailed realizations, They often tend towards contemplative academic fields which allow for abstract speculation to be realized in concrete conclusions, capable of understanding their internal feelings and affections, but they tend to place only a subdued importance on the ethical code of their experience. Although they do enjoy theorizing for its own sake – but mainly with the aim of deciding what to do next; in other words, to establish their strategy. strong capability for analysis.




Which one of these is describing an intp?

 

[Eye of the Potato]

mbti says that the intj's conscious functions are Ni, Te, Fi , Se.

But here Jung says that a Ni dominant's Se is buried in his unconscious.
So why did Myers Briggs say Se was their fourth function? And that it was weak but conscious?




The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object ( Se ) . His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character.


http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Psychological_Types


So going on that logic, a Te dominant personality will have Fi as an unconscious function, Ne will have unconscious Si, and so on. So if Te and Fi must be either conscious or unconscious and can't exist together as conscious functions, then Myers Briggs function order for intj going Ni, Te, Fi, Se, is simply impossible.

So for someone leading with (Ni, Te) Extraverted Sensing and Introverted Feeling will have to be suppressed in the unconscious to compensate. Intuition is introverted, so extroverted intuition will have to be unconscious, and with Te being a conscious function, Ti will have to be unconscious also. So that leaves Si and Fe, and these must be the two remaining conscious functions. So the function order for the Ni thinker must go Ni, Te, Si, Fe, / Se, Fi, Ne, Ti

He also said that Ni was a perceiving function and when someone leads with Ni, that makes them a perceiver, but that's another story.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

Alchemical Eros

One of the most fascinating explorations of the psychological analogues of alchemy was given to us by Jung in a lengthy essay not usually classified as one of his alchemical writings, entitled The Psychology of the Transference. In this study Jung employed the ten pictures illustrating the opus of alchemical transormation contained in a classic called Rosarium Philosophorum (Rosary of the Philosophers), where the dual powers of the "King" and "Queen" are shown to undergo a number of phases of their own mystico-erotic relationship and eventually unite in a new, androgynous being, called in the text "the noble Empress". The term "transference is used by Jung as a psychological synonym for love, which in interpersonal relations as well as in depth-psychological analysis serves the role of the great healer of the sorrows and injuries of living.






The series of images begins with that of the mercurial fountain, symbolizing the aroused energy of transformation and continues with the meeting of the King and Queen, first fully clad and later having relinquished their garments. The lovers thus confront each other with their personae and defenses, but proceed to a meeting in "naked truth". The partners then immerse themselves in the alchemical bath, thus allowing the force of love to engulf their conscious egos, blotting out rational and mundane considerations. While in this state of passionate engulfment the psychosexual union (coniunctio) takes place. But, contrary expectations, this union, which initially brought forth a newly formed androgynous being, results in death. The spiritual result of love is not viable and, having expired, undergoes decomposition.

It is at this point that the force of commitment to the process (though not necessarily to a particular partner) becomes all-important. By not abandoning the transformational work, the soul of the dead androgyne ascends to heaven, i.e., to a higher level of consciousness, while the body is washed in celestial dew. Soon the departed soul returns to its earthly body, and the reanimated corpse stands in its full, numinous glory for all to see. A new being is born which is the promised fruit of love, the transformed consciousness of the lovers, formed of the opposites, which are now welded into an inseparable imperishable wholeness. The alchemy of love has reached its true and triumphant culmination.



This is where Jung got his ideas about the Anima and Animus.
MBTI says the Anima and Animus are opposites. Socionics says they're duals.




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[Eye of the Potato]

That's what I'm talkin bout.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdHK_r9RXTc

 

[badger055]

Duality isn't all rainbows and moonbeams. It's no picnic for an enfp to have an istp as her knight in shining armour. Istp's can be some of the biggest assholes of all. They're cold and they don't give a shit what you're going through emotionally. That's not exactly what I dreamed of when I imagined my ideal partner. I don't buy into it just because it sounds so romantic and written in the stars. I buy into it because dual relationships help you to survive in the world. They help you overcome your difficulties. How can something that helps you to survive be a bad thing? I think we can all agree, no good can come from being in a long term relationship with your opposite, so if that is true, why can't people believe that good things can happen when duals get together?

ENFP is my dual? I think socionics is a load of shit but there is something there with ENFPs. It's sort of the love hate relationship. I don't know but I get drawn into them somehow.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

What kind of istp are u? An istj? lol.