[MBTI General] Can We Ever - Truly KNOW - Another?

[cascadeco]

I pretty much agree with [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION].

When I read the thread title, without having even skimmed other peoples' responses, my initial response without thinking about it was 'No'.

I'm sure most people (?) have thought about what it would be like to suddenly be transplanted into someone elses' consciousness, experience it, live it for a short time, witness it, see/'think'/'perceive' the way they do.... and I am pretty sure all of us would be completely *overwhelmed* with the experience, humbled, just knocked over flat -- the other persons' window to the world would probably just be so utterly different from ours in so many ways -- even the seemingly tiny minute ways might expand into something much bigger. So no, I've never remotely thought I can 'truly KNOW' another. To TRULY KNOW them would be to BE them. imo.

 

[Duffy]

I don't even think I truly know myself, let alone another. I'd imagine it'd be boring if this was possible.

 

[1487610420]

You know I admire your avoidance of verbiage. I want to make sure I caught your train of thought tho. Are you referring here to knowing one's SELF?

No, Porto. If ya gonna deliberately ingest poison, might as well be the good stuff.

 

[Jayce]

I frequently get asked IRL if I am an INFJ and sometimes test out as one. My friends who are into this schtuff are undecided. I relate a bit more to INFP MBTI/Socionic descriptors but see J correlations in other aspects of typing. I think that I know why I have adopted more of the logical and rational aspects of J, but feel private about it for now.

So = no. I am not sure and am always open to feedback and the possibility of changing a long held belief if the appropriate evidence is presented.

No we haven't "met" before so hi there. I just came across your post and felt like replying. I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I didn't know.

Yes. That is why I mentioned being authentic. I have had people worry that I am being deceptive when holding back and it is SO not the case. As you said, I sometimes can’t give more at that moment even if I desire to. But, I would never withhold pertinent information or BE anything other than > real. I want to be accepted/loved ‘warts and all’ so might as well show em’…
I guess some people would misread such things easily. I have to commend your healthy attitude. I'm not sure why its so hard to find people who are on the same page and understand and accept you for who you are. But that is probably something we NFs desire most in a relationship.

I find it hard to understand how people would be undecided between INFJ and INFP. I'm not saying you couldn't be by any means but talking in general about the J/P set. To my understanding the J/P dichotomy shouldn't be treated as a dichotomy, but rather more black and white direction of the functions. It is probably as defining as the functional letters, leaving the E/I dichotomy as the most vague and least affecting. INFJ have Ni Fe Ti Se and INFP have Fi Ne Si Te, which to me seems very different since the Dom and Aux (and tert + inf naturally) are reversed. Of course some people might seem more judging and that can derive from many aspects of life like you said, ex. habituation. From reading your texts you intuitively seem INFP, but who am I to say anything about that, lol. I would look into some function tests, which you probably have. They were an eye opener for me.

BTW where is your Avatar from? Its nice.

 

[Norrsken]

You know, you raise some very interesting points, [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], and I do believe that we as humans do get to know each other in time. A lot of us hold a part of ourselves, until a drastic life happenstance occurs, such as a death within their social circle or family, terminal illness, losing a home, or other traumatizing experiences, and it is then that we are stripped of our masks. Even the most private INxx types soon crack and need to speak their most private thoughts to others; you know that most secrets are often spilled this way.

 

[GIjade]

So no, I've never remotely thought I can 'truly KNOW' another. To TRULY KNOW them would be to BE them. imo.

I totally agree with you.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

One more absinthe et qu'ça saute ! The english version ? Forget it !

"Tea for two and two for tea............"

Tu l'as dit, bouffi ! Voilà qui est bien dit

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I pretty much agree with [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION].

When I read the thread title, without having even skimmed other peoples' responses, my initial response without thinking about it was 'No'.

I'm sure most people (?) have thought about what it would be like to suddenly be transplanted into someone elses' consciousness, experience it, live it for a short time, witness it, see/'think'/'perceive' the way they do.... and I am pretty sure all of us would be completely *overwhelmed* with the experience, humbled, just knocked over flat -- the other persons' window to the world would probably just be so utterly different from ours in so many ways -- even the seemingly tiny minute ways might expand into something much bigger. So no, I've never remotely thought I can 'truly KNOW' another. To TRULY KNOW them would be to BE them. imo.

The bolded (particularly your last line) blew open my synapses to expanded thinking. Really valuable insight - thanks for taking the time to provide your thoughts

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I don't even think I truly know myself, let alone another. I'd imagine it'd be boring if this was possible.

Yeah, as much as I value connection I also value mystery and the process of continual discovery as well I liked both of your points [MENTION=25411]Duffy[/MENTION]!

 

[Cloudpatrol]

No, Porto. If ya gonna deliberately ingest poison, might as well be the good stuff.

Ha! Not a habitual indulger but an occasional poison ingester, yes

Help a girl out [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] (name recco's)

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=27449]Jayce[/MENTION] No we haven't "met" before so hi there. I just came across your post and felt like replying. I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I didn't know.

Thank you. Truly.

Yes. That is why I mentioned being authentic. I have had people worry that I am being deceptive when holding back and it is SO not the case. As you said, I sometimes can’t give more at that moment even if I desire to. But, I would never withhold pertinent information or BE anything other than > real. I want to be accepted/loved ‘warts and all’ so might as well show em’…
I guess some people would misread such things easily. I have to commend your healthy attitude. I'm not sure why its so hard to find people who are on the same page and understand and accept you for who you are. But that is probably something we NFs desire most in a relationship.

Agreed. Thank you for your kind words. Thankfully I feel understood/accepted by loves (non-romantic) in life and am not in a tizzy re: romantic pursuits.

I find it hard to understand how people would be undecided between INFJ and INFP. I'm not saying you couldn't be by any means but talking in general about the J/P set. To my understanding the J/P dichotomy shouldn't be treated as a dichotomy, but rather more black and white direction of the functions. It is probably as defining as the functional letters, leaving the E/I dichotomy as the most vague and least affecting. INFJ have Ni Fe Ti Se and INFP have Fi Ne Si Te, which to me seems very different since the Dom and Aux (and tert + inf naturally) are reversed.

This is helpful. I think it is what I inherently believe but have not been able to put words to. So, thank you. It is a present of sorts.

Of course some people might seem more judging and that can derive from many aspects of life like you said, ex. habituation. From reading your texts you intuitively seem INFP, but who am I to say anything about that, lol. I would look into some function tests, which you probably have. They were an eye opener for me.

I intuitively FEEL INFP when I do evaluate functions. I think I only question it when I get different results or am questioned by others. I DO think I may have a valid 'theory' on why this happens and when I am ready (comfortable) to share, I will let you in on it fo shure! (smile).

BTW where is your Avatar from? Its nice.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I collect vintage erotic art and one of the sources I have - sometimes has random pics come available also. I was smitten as soon as I saw this one. Are you a 'cat person'?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

You know, you raise some very interesting points, [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION], and I do believe that we as humans do get to know each other in time. A lot of us hold a part of ourselves, until a drastic life happenstance occurs, such as a death within their social circle or family, terminal illness, losing a home, or other traumatizing experiences, and it is then that we are stripped of our masks. Even the most private INxx types soon crack and need to speak their most private thoughts to others; you know that most secrets are often spilled this way.

I liked your highlighting the value of shared thoughts. I am intensely private about trauma etcetera but try to push myself to share because I DO respect the wisdom of what you say here. It IS sage to shed social masks and not isolate entirely but to have a soft place to fall when things are difficult. And, to be that resource for others too

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I totally agree with you.

I too thought [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION]'s point here was brilliant, [MENTION=26845]GIjade[/MENTION]!

 

[1487610420]

Ha! Not a habitual indulger but an occasional poison ingester, yes

Help a girl out [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] (name recco's)

Back in my day, I've been known to helping a girl out.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Back in my day, I've been known to helping a girl out.

Laughs audibly!

Deliberate misdirection Mister.

OR...

I made the parenthesis too small (squints, shakes head sadly).

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think it's a double-edged sword, the desire to 'truly KNOW' people. And I do agree that it's NF territory, though I suspect sx instinct variant dominance could give NFness some competition in this regard.

I know I'm forever citing Gordon Neufeld, but I'm going to go ahead and do it again. I love what he has to say about attachment needs- and the importance of having strong and authentic attachments to other people. Where we don't have that, we start to distort the truth about things to ourselves because having some connection to others is such a strong need.

In Hold On To Your Kids (it's about child development, but I think it applies fairly well to adults), he lists 6 different ways humans being exposed to one another- and the consequent connection- can form into an attachment. The first (and presumably, weakest) is through senses- direct physical proximity. It's the weakest because a break in physical proximity can break the connection- leaving the kid feeling insecure, with an urge to attach to whatever else takes that adult's place. Then (in order of strength, iiuc) Sameness; Belonging and Loyalty; Significance; Feeling; and Being Known. <- The last- "Being Known", where it's authentic- is the most secure form of attachment. When we feel 'known', then physical distance (or the other attachment needs) doesn't need to be in place for us to feel satiated in our authentic connection to another person; it provides a sort of freedom to be ourselves. Here is how he describes it:

To feel close to someone is to feel known by them. In some ways, this is a recapitulation of attaching by way of the senses, except that being seen and heard are now experienced psychologically instead of strictly physically. In the pursuit of closeness, a child will share his secrets. In fact, closeness will often be defined by the secrets shared. Parent-oriented children do not like to keep secrets from their parents because of the resulting loss of closeness. For a peer-oriented child, his best friend is the one he has no secrets from. One cannot get much more vulnerable than to expose oneself psychologically. To share oneself with another and then be misunderstood or rejected is, for many, a risk not worth taking. As a result, this is the rarest of intimacies and the reason so many of us are reluctant to share even with loved ones our deepest concerns and insecurities about ourselves. Yet there is no closeness that can surpass the sense of feeling known and still being liked, accepted, welcomed, invited to exist.
​

That being said, getting back to the shitty end of the 'double-edge sword': sometimes when people think they are doing it for the other person- they are actually doing it to fill their own needs somehow, and where that's the case it can be invasive, parasitic and generally . It can make people really manipulative (however unintentionally). When we are authentically doing it for the other person, then there's no attachment to a particular outcome or sense of entitlement to the other person feeling 'seen' by our efforts.

 

[EcK]

it's structurally impossible. Also it would implying knowing yourself perfectly, which just won't happen. Consciousness is just a small part of what makes up a human's actions / reactions.

 

[Jayce]

Agreed. Thank you for your kind words. Thankfully I feel understood/accepted by loves (non-romantic) in life and am not in a tizzy re: romantic pursuits.
I've found this acceptance also recently and couldn't be happier about it.

I intuitively FEEL INFP when I do evaluate functions. I think I only question it when I get different results or am questioned by others. I DO think I may have a valid 'theory' on why this happens and when I am ready (comfortable) to share, I will let you in on it fo shure! (smile).

Please do.

BTW where is your Avatar from? Its nice.

Thanks! I collect vintage erotic art and one of the sources I have - sometimes has random pics come available also. I was smitten as soon as I saw this one. Are you a 'cat person'?[/QUOTE]
I just love the feel of it. It just has so much character and its beautiful. I'm more of a dog person myself. Sometimes I wonder if the difference between INFP and ENFP is that INFPs like cats and ENFPs like dogs.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I think it's a double-edged sword, the desire to 'truly KNOW' people. And I do agree that it's NF territory, though I suspect sx instinct variant dominance could give NFness some competition in this regard.

I know I'm forever citing Gordon Neufeld, but I'm going to go ahead and do it again. I love what he has to say about attachment needs- and the importance of having strong and authentic attachments to other people. Where we don't have that, we start to distort the truth about things to ourselves because having some connection to others is such a strong need.

In Hold On To Your Kids (it's about child development, but I think it applies fairly well to adults), he lists 6 different ways humans being exposed to one another- and the consequent connection- can form into an attachment. The first (and presumably, weakest) is through senses- direct physical proximity. It's the weakest because a break in physical proximity can break the connection- leaving the kid feeling insecure, with an urge to attach to whatever else takes that adult's place. Then (in order of strength, iiuc) Sameness; Belonging and Loyalty; Significance; Feeling; and Being Known. <- The last- "Being Known", where it's authentic- is the most secure form of attachment. When we feel 'known', then physical distance (or the other attachment needs) doesn't need to be in place for us to feel satiated in our authentic connection to another person; it provides a sort of freedom to be ourselves. Here is how he describes it:

To feel close to someone is to feel known by them. In some ways, this is a recapitulation of attaching by way of the senses, except that being seen and heard are now experienced psychologically instead of strictly physically. In the pursuit of closeness, a child will share his secrets. In fact, closeness will often be defined by the secrets shared. Parent-oriented children do not like to keep secrets from their parents because of the resulting loss of closeness. For a peer-oriented child, his best friend is the one he has no secrets from. One cannot get much more vulnerable than to expose oneself psychologically. To share oneself with another and then be misunderstood or rejected is, for many, a risk not worth taking. As a result, this is the rarest of intimacies and the reason so many of us are reluctant to share even with loved ones our deepest concerns and insecurities about ourselves. Yet there is no closeness that can surpass the sense of feeling known and still being liked, accepted, welcomed, invited to exist.
​

That being said, getting back to the shitty end of the 'double-edge sword': sometimes when people think they are doing it for the other person- they are actually doing it to fill their own needs somehow, and where that's the case it can be invasive, parasitic and generally . It can make people really manipulative (however unintentionally). When we are authentically doing it for the other person, then there's no attachment to a particular outcome or sense of entitlement to the other person feeling 'seen' by our efforts.

Oh! (blissful sigh) you are speaking my language. I always feel a tug on my heart when I see you have replied to posts because I know I will 1) learn something 2) be provoked to thought and 3) be inspired.

I bolded the parts I most identify with. The past decade has truly been MOST about this process I think. I have learnt to live apart (physically) from the people I most care for and to be content and thus able to forge new connections while honouring/maintaining the old as well.

It's also helped me to honour my husband though not physically connected to him through life and having lost the union but still feeling the risk was worth it.

I think I am still working on the last part to be honest. The 'letting go'. I so believe in having no expectations. When I give a gift I have developed an attitude where I enjoy the making/getting of the gift and then once the person receives it, I feel nothing from that point on. If they like it - great. If they throw it out - great. I GAVE it to THEM. My joy was in the choosing and handing over and then the next part I feel belongs to them. I don't even ask people to open gifts or read cards in my presence.

I think I have been practicing that as a metaphor for life. I want to give freely with myself also. To risk being known in entirety and be able to walk away whole if things fall through or fall short, still being glad for the giving. It is scary as anything but I have found the things that are most frightening bring most reward!

I will look into Gordon Neufeld ASAP. I am glad you mentioned him as the name is new to me.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. (Respectful hug)

 

[Cloudpatrol]

it's structurally impossible. Also it would implying knowing yourself perfectly, which just won't happen. Consciousness is just a small part of what makes up a human's actions / reactions.

Succinct and well put in it's entirety! I value how you are spare with words > but they say so much, my friend. I can learn from you