[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Can ENFPs & ENFJs have great relationships?

[Esoteric Wench]

Is it possible for ENFPs and ENFJs to have a long term, healthy, and happy relationship? After all, they have nary a cognitive function in common.

• ENFP = Ne > Fi > Te > Si
• ENFJ = Fe > Ni > Se > Ti
• 

While all four NF types have a special kinship, this kinship doesn't seem universally strong. For example, just like there is a uniquely powerful magnetism between ENFPs and INFJs, there is an equally powerful repulsion between ENFPs and ENFJs.

Thus, is the theory. And, so it is also my personal experience.

I think of the ENFJs I know. I have soooo much in common with them. We like the same things. We both have a flair for conversation and for the arts. We both are socially capable and able to work our contacts. We both tend to get along with INFJs and INFPs quite well.

And yet, even given all we have in common, it seems we live on different planets. Fi versus Fe? Whatever the reason, I'm not the only one who has noticed this natural antipathy between these two types.

I want to know if anyone on the forum has figured out how to make such ENFP/ENFJ relationships work. Either as friends or lovers… Any advice is appreciated. I would very much like to improve my ability to interact with ENFJs.

 

[Sparrow]

I never knew that ENFPs & ENFJs had problems with each other! I get along just fine with ENFPs .

 

[Lily flower]

An ENFJ I know really enjoyed the company of an ENFP friend for several years and said that she was very relaxing to be around (although their friendship eventually ended with her saying that he put too much pressure on her to perform/improve her life).

I wonder if the problem with ENFJ/ENFP might be that both like to be the center of attention, and therefore there is a little bit of competing for the limelight and no one to gaze on appreciatively.

 

[Glycerine]

Friendships can work if there is compromise on both ends like with any other types. Ask the awesome Skylights about the awesomeness of the ENFJ-ENFP friendship.

 

[Arclight]

An ENFJ I know really enjoyed the company of an ENFP friend for several years and said that she was very relaxing to be around (although their friendship eventually ended with her saying that he put too much pressure on her to perform/improve her life).

I wonder if the problem with ENFJ/ENFP might be that both like to be the center of attention, and therefore there is a little bit of competing for the limelight and no one to gaze on appreciatively.

I do not like being the center of attention. I hate being fussed over.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

[Let's not get off on the tangent of how MBTI and Socionics four-letter codes are compatible. I think that "authoritative opinions are all over the map on this matter. This post is about my opinion.]

It's been my experience that if you DON'T change the letters, then Socionics' theory on interpersonal relations is spooky accurate.

Per Socionics theory, ENFPs and ENFJs have quasi-identity (aka quasi-identical) relations. Let me offer a couple of descriptions of such ways of inter-relating:

Quasi-Identity Relations: Quasi-identity is an intertype relation between two people from opposing quadras who have similar, but not identical functions, and no suggestive influence over the other. Partners typically have a lot to say about the same kinds of topics (as do, typically, any members of a single club), and their conversations gravitate to these common spheres of interest, but they take entirely different approaches to every subject. They both take note of the same phenomena, but describe and analyze them in completely different terms that the other finds interesting, but completely unsatisfying. This is because the language and approach of one partner's leading function corresponds to the strong, but undervalued demonstrative function of the other. Each partner tends to be impressed with the other's skillful use of his leading function, which they perceive more as a "performance" (due to their own attitudes toward their demonstrative function) than a sincere and honest expression.

In closer interaction, partners' instincts are to want to correct the other person's approach and redefine the issues in completely different language. This leads to a feeling of being under-appreciated by the other. Partners are easily drawn into quite personal conversations because of the sense that the other person can relate to them, but this psychological intimacy can easily disappear without a trace when aggravation about something the other person does finally boils over and partners allow themselves to express dissatisfaction with the other. This can lead to disappointment and a feeling of betrayal of trust or lack of loyalty when partners suddenly don't want to be around each other or maintain the relationship anymore because it drains them.

While generally sympathetic towards each other and sharing many of the same weaknesses, quasi-identicals are almost unable to offer meaningful assistance on a personal level, and quickly become annoyed with each other's expectations, if any. Furthermore, the solutions to their emotional or personal problems are always radically different. For instance, an EIE must "get himself together" and stop being idle or hesitant, while an IEE needs a change of pace and some new diversion. If each tries to implement the other's recipe, nothing comes of it.​

Quasi-Identical Relations. These are relations of major misunderstanding. Quasi-Identical partners can interact with each other in a more or less peaceful manner if both partners are Thinking types. If they are both Feeling types however, they are likely to have an argumentative relationship. Also, as in the other relations, personal attraction can be very crucial to the peacefulness in their relationship. An absence of personal attraction may cause unnecessary internal tension resulting in conflict between partners. However these arguments do not often last long. After both partners have released their internal tension, the Perceiving partner is usually the first to show the initiative in reconciliation.

A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.

In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion.​

Anyone have any comments on this?

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I do not like being the center of attention. I hate being fussed over.

Arclight, you and I would be friends IRL no matter what.

 

[skylights]

Friendships can work if there is compromise on both ends like with any other types. Ask the awesome Skylights about the awesomeness of the ENFJ-ENFP friendship.

thank you to the awesome Pitseleh for the reference

and yes my bff is ENFJ. and is the awesomest.

i have gone out with an ENFJ before too, and things did not work out simply because of where we were both at in life, but it was great for the short while it lasted and we parted on totally positive terms.

i think ENFJ and ENFP can make an amazing combination if they both care enough about one another to momentarily sacrifice their points of view to see on the other's side for a moment. because really, it's startlingly similar. and we can be a huge help to one another if we get over ourselves first.

quasi-identicals are almost unable to offer meaningful assistance on a personal level, and quickly become annoyed with each other's expectations, if any. Furthermore, the solutions to their emotional or personal problems are always radically different. For instance, an EIE must "get himself together" and stop being idle or hesitant, while an IEE needs a change of pace and some new diversion. If each tries to implement the other's recipe, nothing comes of it.

fwiw, i completely disagree with this. my ENFJ friend is the person i can go to with my WAHHH Fi and she can understand where i'm coming from, cheer me up, and whip me back into shape. though not really in that order, lol. more like call me out on my bullshit and whip me back into shape, understand where i'm coming from, then cheer me up. conversely, i feel like i can get to her on a more personal level than a lot of people can, and she feels okay talking to me about her stress, which i know she tends to keep pent up inside. and sometimes i think i need a change of pace or diversion and what i really need is to get my shit together; sometimes she would prefer to stew alone when what can be more helpful is letting go for a while. just because they're not our natural way of solving things does not mean they cannot be good for us. and we may still need to solve the problem via our preferences, but a temporary removal from our preferences can be key to breaking out of a negative mindset.

A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.

i think there's a level of truth to this, but is this not true for any pair of humans?

i think it's also important to note that ENFP and ENFJ are both very talented at "seeing into" others. we both can lock onto strengths and weaknesses very quickly. hence we both see one another's strengths and it is both admirable and threatening, and we both see one another's weaknesses and it is both comforting/endearing and frustrating. yet because of Fi/Fe we tend to these strengths and weaknesses in a different way. we are both more and less talented than one another, and we do get into trouble when concentrating only on one or the other side of that balance. but it's easy enough to restore the perceived balance (it is all in our heads, after all) by simply working together toward the same goal, instead of comparing yourselves against one another.

and just wait until you confess to your quasi-identical that you feel like you're inferior to them in some way and it blows and you're frustrated as hell, just to hear them echo the same thing back to you, about some attribute that never even crossed your mind. surprise! ENFJ might project certainty and ENFP might project positivity (or vice versa), but as extraverted types we project so well that we can forget how much more is going on under the surface - we are both NF, after all - and that one another isn't without worries. we hide weakness in very different places, and that's essential to mutual understanding.

In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion.

geez, DESTINED FOR DOOM

all i have to say is that i trust my bff with my life and our friendship pretty much defies every negative thing said here. i'm not saying it hasn't had huge ups and downs. it sure as hell has. yes, we communicate and respond and come at things in totally different ways, but what we see as important, at the deepest level, is generally very much the same. and i've grown so much from our friendship and am definitely a better person for it. despite the gloomy-doom prediction, i would prefer for it to stick around as long as possible. and yeah, maybe we're just abnormal or maybe one of us just mistyped ourselves, but regardless, i think it's rather socially irresponsible on the typers' parts to write something that basically condemns a relationship between two types.

so take that, socionics. a positive, healthy, theory-defying quasi-identical relationship.

esoteric wench: i give you HOPE!

 

[You]

And with that, we have been inspired.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

all i have to say is that i trust my [ENFJ] bff with my life and our friendship pretty much defies every negative thing said here. i'm not saying it hasn't had huge ups and downs. it sure as hell has. yes, we communicate and respond and come at things in totally different ways, but what we see as important, at the deepest level, is generally very much the same.

esoteric wench: i give you HOPE!

This does give me hope skylights. Thanks for posting. Because, I would very much like to improve my interactions with ENFJs.

And, you're absolutely right that the biggest thing ENFJs and ENFPs have in common is our ability to read people oh-so-well. I think this is a wonderful starting point / area of common ground that I hadn't yet considered.

I know several ENFJs and many of them do seem like the most wonderful people. But, I've been very, very hurt by a couple of ENFJs, too. And, I think it's made me gun shy to the entire type.... which I hate. I know it's unfair to judge an entire type by a couple of bad apples. But if I'm completely honest with myself, that's exactly what I've been doing. Thus, this thread. I'd like to change this part of myself.

So you mentioned that you'd had ups and downs with your ENFJ BFF. My question to you is this:

When your ENFJ becomes upset with you over an Fi/Fe issue, how do you give them push back? I don't see either Fe or Fi being superior to one another, but the ENFJs I've known seem to firmly believe that I must subsume my trouble-making Fi ways, to the correct (viz., Fe) way of behaving.

In other words, how do you make an ENFJ understand you, and not condemn you, for your Fi-ness?

And, if anyone else other than skylights has advice to share re: my question, that would be appreciated, too.

 

[angell_m]

Really, really should not use typology for match making. There are a lot of level
headed people out there who's dichotomies are so 50/50 that you can't really
tell what letter goes where.

I'll always be an INFP at the core, but my dichotomies fluctuate depending on
what I'm doing, my mood and environment. It's not by much, but it's enough for
me to score as an INTJ all of the sudden, appearantly. My -I- will always be
there, so will my N, but my -T- and -J- jumps up and down.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I agree there are limits on the typing / dating thing. But, I'm not talking about ENFPs and ENFJs dating. I'd like to figure out how to smoothly and pleasantly interact with them as friends, co-workers, and acquaintances.

 

[Chloe]

I read on enfpforum.com or personalitycafe (not sure which) thread about ENFP-ENFJ and many said the same thing, how the just cant get along with ENFJs..

[Let's not get off on the tangent of how MBTI and Socionics four-letter codes are compatible. I think that "authoritative opinions are all over the map on this matter. This post is about my opinion.]

It's been my experience that if you DON'T change the letters, then Socionics' theory on interpersonal relations is spooky accurate.

Per Socionics theory, ENFPs and ENFJs have quasi-identity (aka quasi-identical) relations. Let me offer a couple of descriptions of such ways of inter-relating:

Quasi-Identity Relations: Quasi-identity is an intertype relation between two people from opposing quadras who have similar, but not identical functions, and no suggestive influence over the other. Partners typically have a lot to say about the same kinds of topics (as do, typically, any members of a single club), and their conversations gravitate to these common spheres of interest, but they take entirely different approaches to every subject. They both take note of the same phenomena, but describe and analyze them in completely different terms that the other finds interesting, but completely unsatisfying. This is because the language and approach of one partner's leading function corresponds to the strong, but undervalued demonstrative function of the other. Each partner tends to be impressed with the other's skillful use of his leading function, which they perceive more as a "performance" (due to their own attitudes toward their demonstrative function) than a sincere and honest expression.

In closer interaction, partners' instincts are to want to correct the other person's approach and redefine the issues in completely different language. This leads to a feeling of being under-appreciated by the other. Partners are easily drawn into quite personal conversations because of the sense that the other person can relate to them, but this psychological intimacy can easily disappear without a trace when aggravation about something the other person does finally boils over and partners allow themselves to express dissatisfaction with the other. This can lead to disappointment and a feeling of betrayal of trust or lack of loyalty when partners suddenly don't want to be around each other or maintain the relationship anymore because it drains them.

While generally sympathetic towards each other and sharing many of the same weaknesses, quasi-identicals are almost unable to offer meaningful assistance on a personal level, and quickly become annoyed with each other's expectations, if any. Furthermore, the solutions to their emotional or personal problems are always radically different. For instance, an EIE must "get himself together" and stop being idle or hesitant, while an IEE needs a change of pace and some new diversion. If each tries to implement the other's recipe, nothing comes of it.​

Quasi-Identical Relations. These are relations of major misunderstanding. Quasi-Identical partners can interact with each other in a more or less peaceful manner if both partners are Thinking types. If they are both Feeling types however, they are likely to have an argumentative relationship. Also, as in the other relations, personal attraction can be very crucial to the peacefulness in their relationship. An absence of personal attraction may cause unnecessary internal tension resulting in conflict between partners. However these arguments do not often last long. After both partners have released their internal tension, the Perceiving partner is usually the first to show the initiative in reconciliation.

A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.

In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion.​

Anyone have any comments on this?

This explains perfectly my relationship with my ex best friend, ENFJ.

 

[skylights]

This does give me hope skylights. Thanks for posting. Because, I would very much like to improve my interactions with ENFJs.

And, you're absolutely right that the biggest thing ENFJs and ENFPs have in common is our ability to read people oh-so-well. I think this is a wonderful starting point / area of common ground that I hadn't yet considered.

I know several ENFJs and many of them do seem like the most wonderful people. But, I've been very, very hurt by a couple of ENFJs, too. And, I think it's made me gun shy to the entire type.... which I hate. I know it's unfair to judge an entire type by a couple of bad apples. But if I'm completely honest with myself, that's exactly what I've been doing. Thus, this thread. I'd like to change this part of myself.

So you mentioned that you'd had ups and downs with your ENFJ BFF. My question to you is this:

When your ENFJ becomes upset with you over an Fi/Fe issue, how do you give them push back? I don't see either Fe or Fi being superior to one another, but the ENFJs I've known seem to firmly believe that I must subsume my trouble-making Fi ways, to the correct (viz., Fe) way of behaving.

In other words, how do you make an ENFJ understand you, and not condemn you, for your Fi-ness?

And, if anyone else other than skylights has advice to share re: my question, that would be appreciated, too.

you're welcome!

i totally understand getting burned. it must be so frustrating - i know i was turned off to INTP males for a while (totally accidentally, i didn't even mean to judge by type but the connotation of annoyance was still there) because of some bad circumstances. but i luvz them too.

anyway, so your question --

in a Fi-Fe tension moment, i usually cave first. it used to annoy me a LOT to do so - i felt like i was giving in and betraying myself - but it's easier to not see it as defeat, like Fi wants to see it, and simply as putting aside Fi for a moment. the great thing about Fe is that it is interested in your good, so if you stop raising your Fi hackles for a second, it's easier for you to be reached out to. even if they're trying to direct you. but you have to put the hackles down first before you explain why the Fe way (or the Ni idea) isn't working out for you.

i think part of the thing for me, as Fi aux, is valuing the fact that my friend can point out when i'm being Fi-stupid - and of course i didn't understand it in these terms until recently, but anyway - but i mean, sometimes i'm so adamant about defending myself and my values that i don't realize i'm just hurting myself and/or others and making things more difficult. and of course i can point out the same thing to her about Fe, but we have to have that portal of connection open first. and she'll typically reach out to me if i just quit being defensive for a second, because then she drops her guard too. and then we can discuss things on a neutral level.

so it's really both our faults. typically she crosses a boundary of mine but isn't always aware, and then i get upset, and then she closes off to protect herself and i get more upset and explode outward to try to defend myself. so we both expend energy doing things that are completely ineffective and only piss the other off (because i don't get any reaction from her, and closing herself off doesn't stop my reaction either). but if i calm down and she reaches out, then it's okay. both our reactions are really based on hurt and protecting ourselves, so it's gotten easier as we trust one another's intentions better.

 

[KLessard]

For romantic relationships, I don't know, but for friendships, I have two ENFP colleagues and two ENFJs and they all get along just great. They are pretty good friends, actually.

 

[LadyJaye]

Domino and I are ENFJ/ENFP twins - we lovelovelove each other. Of course, when we were kids, we tore at each other like rabid hamsters over the last sunflower seed in Hamstertown. But, I think that's just being kids. I think the biggest hurdle we've overcome, communication-wise, is the Fi/ Fe thing. It seems that our stress styles are horribly incompatable, but now we're aware of it, it's no longer the end of the world. We both had to make room for the differences in Feeling, and I really think it's an asset.

On the romantic level, I've always found Fe compelling and attractive ( I've dated a few INFJs, but never an ENFJ ). I think ENFJ men have strong personalities, like ENTJ's, but with the Fe of an INFJ. As long as the mutual respect is there, then I don't see it as a bad combination.

 

[Ambee]

I know this topic is old, but I'm an ENFJ and my best friend is an ENFP. We joke around that she is my "evil" twin, just because she's a little more mischievous than I am. I like to be a little more careful and I get more worried about what others thing, but we tend to balance each other out. (She says I definitely do say Oh, her name, in a quit your troublemaking kind of way).

I was reading her what skylights said and we were both laughing - it's just so true. We did definitely have to work on understanding how the other reacts to stress. Her basic response (in her words) "I flail around and if things aren't better I repeat step one." I get equally concerned but I try to fix problems on repeat. We've learned to balance each other like no one else can. I am a very open person in general but important things I keep to myself, except her. I know she'll get it. She can get really worked up in situations dealing with strong emotions and I'm good at helping her focus and calm down without belittling her emotions. She usually can pull me out of a spiral of anxiety and worry and get me to relax for awhile.

Sometimes she is not always sure of how to express complex emotions so I can help channel those emotions into words others understand and we are extra persuasive that way. We both like to deal with important conversations by taking a moment to laugh about something innappropriate and silly. I don't always understand how the world let us be best friends because we are quite a whirlwind duo when "our powers combine."

We don't have any problems about competing for the center of attention. We both can take it or leave it, and I think because we're so close, just having one of us being in the spotlight feels like a win for us both. We understand our differences and we try to turn it into one combined strength.

I think maybe the key to our best ENFJ/ENFP friendship is we never feel like we're competing, no matter how differently we react to a situation. We can anticipate what the other is going to think/feel and we actually try to deal with situations in a way that will help both of us. When it's the two of us against the world, we almost feel unstoppable. And man, do we laugh! Every day we laugh.

 

[Thalassa]

My bff from high school is an ENFJ and I'm an ENFP. Same with my closest sister...ENFJ.

With both of them I have an extraordinary mental connection, like we understand each other.

Except in the case of ENFJ sister, her morality is much more "appropriate." I used to think she was a big prude when we were younger, and now sometimes she gets on my nerves with her wanting everyone to play nice, and keep their bad moods to themselves, and I'm just like "get real." But I appreciate her ability to keep the peace and play mediator at the very same time. What gets on my nerves most is ironically also one of the things I love most about her. She shines in her ability to guide others into harmony, and she has great ideas, and often "gets me" in intellectual discussions, etc.

My ENFJ bff is also more "harmonious" in the way that she has that ENFJ charisma and is more likely to keep things running "smooth" socially. Except she never was a prude. We were more like twins in high school, I think, people used to say we were so much alike. And we are in a lot of ways mentally...but I realized by the time we were 18 or so how different we also were. Her way is different than my way, no matter how much we might have a connection. She's also TREMENDOUSLY more goal-focused and organized that me. My bff is a very "stereotypical" four dichotomy J in that way. I'm like a slap-dash, hippie drifter compared to her...but she loves me anyway, and seems to admire things about me. Ha.

 

[Ambee]

When your ENFJ becomes upset with you over an Fi/Fe issue, how do you give them push back? I don't see either Fe or Fi being superior to one another, but the ENFJs I've known seem to firmly believe that I must subsume my trouble-making Fi ways, to the correct (viz., Fe) way of behaving.

I'm asking my best ENFP this right now. I feel like I only really try to stop her troublemaking ways when I see a real danger or consequence. When it's silly things I'm likely to be entertained as long as I'm not involved, although I can't help pointing it out. I feel like we do an equal amount of giving in if it's a tough situation but we take other parties into consideration.

My ENFP says " I feel like my troublemaking gives something for her to do! It's only when it's really a bad idea that she ever is sort of like my conscious saying "Do you, REALLY think that's a good idea?" it's more of a suggestive tone than bossy. I definitely try to see her side of if though. Our sense of what is fair and what is over the line is pretty equal."

I think she just likes the nudge the line while I tend to back away, but sometimes I'm rooting her on to cross it and she's counting on me to pull her back

 

[Esoteric Wench]

This is an old topic but I'm so pleased that such interesting posts have been made in the last couple of days! I have an ENFJ who is coming over for a visit this Friday. I shall keep all these things in mind while I'm hanging out with him.