[Traditional Enneagram] Can a 2 be a "2" Without The Desire To Give?

[Dreamer]

So with the suggestion of [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] and earlier, by [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION], I started looking into the 2 type. There are definitely some elements I can relate with, but one element I don't is in the need or desire to give. I feel it is rather easy for me to see and understand what others need, but it doesn't mean I will give it to them. So long as I don't have to go out of my way to give the person what I know they need, I'll do it. Heck, even for a good friend of mine, if I have to go out of my way, I won't do it unless I sense a real urgency to it. I feel guilt for a brief time thinking I should do it, but I get over it quickly.

I also looked into the differences between ENFP 7s and ENFP 2s, then just out of curiosity ENFP 4s, since the three seem to be the most common enneatypes for ENFPs, and I do see some areas of ENFP 7s that I really just don't relate to too. For example, with social drama, I'd much prefer to just leave the situation even if I'm not involved. It doesn't interest me at all. I don't find it entertaining or even wish to stir the pot a little to get things going. It doesn't pain me or cause me anxiety to be around drama, no, I'm just literally bored to tears from it. Any sort of social happenings like she did this and this and ohhh he did that. Nope, I'll pass on all that.

So any further incites into the 2 type would be helpful. Overall though, have been finding some new and interesting perspectives of the various enneagram types. Even some of the other types I wouldn't normally consider, I've been familiarizing myself with.

 

[á´…eparted]

It's unfortunate that 2's are just not common around here, because that leads to the community knowledge about that type being limited since it's infrequently discussed. That, and there tends to be a negative bias against 2's.

If you are considering 2 for yourself, I would recommend considering what help and give means. I'll use myself as an example. One of the primary sticking points of 1's is anger. For many, many years I used to say "I don't really get angry, I don't have a temper". The notion of which now is laughable. If you disregard my whole coming into myself bit, a big portion of it was due to not really understanding what anger is. To me, it was something you expressed, something rather simple, and exclusive to being annoyed, peeved, miffed, etc. I had thought of anger as this strong, extreme charicture. The sort of thing you think of with people who have to attend anger management classes. That's not really what it is though. It's only a tiny portion, and one that 1's seldom if ever express.

For 2's, one must consider what does giving mean. It won't always mean giving something tangible to another person, nor will it involve doing something either. Giving, and the desire to give, could be as simple as having a conversation with the person and wanting to make them feel happy, or to make them feel special. The "giving" there would be making them feel good by focusing on them, and attending to the sort of things you think they might value. 2's have a strong focus on the other, what can be done for the other, what can be said to the other, how does the other fit into the larger scheme of things.

I don't really know much about 2's so I can't elaborate too much further, but that's the general scheme of what giving tends to mean for 2's. As I understand it anyway.

 

[Virtual ghost]

2 that doesn't want to give is like 5 that is not interested in knowledge, none bossy 8 or 7 that doesn't care about fun all that much.


Therefore such 2 is probably mistyped person.

 

[Boogie man]

Your awareness of the needs of others can point to type 2 influence, at the least. Especially with how easy you say it comes for you.

Type 2 is a power type, and giving is a means to have more power over someone. The 2 isn't always completely honest with themselves on this, so it's best to slowly think of what this means to you and how you handle relationships.
Not giving can also be a means to control. Withholding yourself from reaching out can be a way to manipulate others into being/reacting/feeling a certain way.

 

[Dreamer]

It's unfortunate that 2's are just not common around here, because that leads to the community knowledge about that type being limited since it's infrequently discussed. That, and there tends to be a negative bias against 2's.

If you are considering 2 for yourself, I would recommend considering what help and give means. I'll use myself as an example. One of the primary sticking points of 1's is anger. For many, many years I used to say "I don't really get angry, I don't have a temper". The notion of which now is laughable. If you disregard my whole coming into myself bit, a big portion of it was due to not really understanding what anger is. To me, it was something you expressed, something rather simple, and exclusive to being annoyed, peeved, miffed, etc. I had thought of anger as this strong, extreme charicture. The sort of thing you think of with people who have to attend anger management classes. That's not really what it is though. It's only a tiny portion, and one that 1's seldom if ever express.

For 2's, one must consider what does giving mean. It won't always mean giving something tangible to another person, nor will it involve doing something either. Giving, and the desire to give, could be as simple as having a conversation with the person and wanting to make them feel happy, or to make them feel special. The "giving" there would be making them feel good by focusing on them, and attending to the sort of things you think they might value. 2's have a strong focus on the other, what can be done for the other, what can be said to the other, how does the other fit into the larger scheme of things.

I don't really know much about 2's so I can't elaborate too much further, but that's the general scheme of what giving tends to mean for 2's. As I understand it anyway.

Thank you so much!! I will definitely rethink what giving means to me, and you're totally right, giving isn't just about something tangible. I will definitely have to sit on this a while and figure out how much I pay attention to the needs of others. I do know it brings a sense of satisfaction to me to do things for others. The brief emotional exchange between me and the other person when they say "thank you" and the genuine feeling of appreciation that comes with it... Wait... am I really seeking appreciation as a fundamental need of mine?? Hmm...

Oh this is exciting!

I shall think on this more but you got my gears turning now

Thank you!!

 

[Dreamer]

2 that doesn't want to give is like 5 that is not interested in knowledge, none bossy 8 or 7 that doesn't care about fun all that much.


Therefore such 2 is probably mistyped person.

This is certainly a potential and in the end, I may not be a 2 at all, but we shall see. This reminds me of a thread I started umm... Last week? In the MBTI forum, about defining what makes up your functions and what makes up the experience and development that comes from life. I think we can develop and grow in ways that alter how the external world views our possible typing.

But anyways, it has me thinking this because tending to the needs of others was a conscious effort on my behalf to want to change back in high school. I used to be rather self absorbed, and eventually thought I should change since I wasn't very happy. So, now I wonder if my willingness to help others is a natural part of me, so much so that it's my enneatype, or if it only makes me appear as one.

 

[Dreamer]

Your awareness of the needs of others can point to type 2 influence, at the least. Especially with how easy you say it comes for you.

Type 2 is a power type, and giving is a means to have more power over someone. The 2 isn't always completely honest with themselves on this, so it's best to slowly think of what this means to you and how you handle relationships.
Not giving can also be a means to control. Withholding yourself from reaching out can be a way to manipulate others into being/reacting/feeling a certain way.

Ohhh interesting. Did not know or even consider 2s as relating to power, but as you talk a out it, I can certainly see it. Hmm, that's another point I will consider, what does giving, or not giving really do for me?

Thank you!

 

[Merced]

2 that doesn't want to give is like 5 that is not interested in knowledge, none bossy 8 or 7 that doesn't care about fun all that much.


Therefore such 2 is probably mistyped person.

I would argue that people with 2 in the latter part of their tritype are still 2s even if they don't actively want to give. They just don't know how to express it. Like an inferior function.

 

[Merced]

2w3 ENFP here, instead of looking at actions or wants, I suggest looking at fears. That's the most defining part of each type. I know I am a 2 because I fear that I will be unwanted. I act out on this fear by doing as much as I can to be wanted, like assisting people and giving them things.

Instinctual variant and your mind and gut also contribute to your actions. I, a 278, might try to make myself more wanted by being a singular fun and happy influence that will attract people while a 296 might try to make themselves more wanted by becoming a fundamental part of communication. I, a 2w3 sx/so, will care about being wanted by a few select people that I feel are appropriate regardless if they mean me well while a 2w1 so/sp will care about being wanted by a wide variety of people as long as they can provide protection, regardless how they feel otherwise.

From our interactions ED, I don't think you are a 2 dom. Though it being one of the other parts of your tritype is really probable. Also, when typing yourself, it is really common to mistake 9 behaviors for 2. If you have a 9 gut, I don't think your heart is 2. And I mean that in specific terms for you and not in general.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Also helpful to think of 2 as transactional, but please don't take offense to the word. Is transactional in the sense that the continual need to give comes attached with a sense of desiring receipt. If you're constantly outputting energy to others, you are doing that in order to get something back. If you don't get it, resentment and other negative emotions often build.

Is not necessarily selfish in that sense, but people do ascribe a less than altruistic judgment on this exchange of energy. 2 tends to overlap with Fe moreso than Fi, but there certainly are Fi users motivated by e2. Good luck on your explorations! I would suggest examining tritype as [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION] points out above; could be very helpful to enable you to pin this down or exclude.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

2 needs to be needed, needs others dependent on them, not merely giving. I no longer feel I have a 2 in my tritype because I don't have a need to be needed by others.

I have never felt good about my image fix, but I know now it isn't 2.

 

[Merced]

2 needs to be needed, needs others dependent on them, not merely giving. I no longer feel I have a 2 in my tritype because I don't have a need to be needed by others.

I have never felt good about my image fix, but I know now it isn't 2.

See? Being part of the Positive triad (792) is so confusing.

 

[Dreamer]

2w3 ENFP here, instead of looking at actions or wants, I suggest looking at fears. That's the most defining part of each type. I know I am a 2 because I fear that I will be unwanted. I act out on this fear by doing as much as I can to be wanted, like assisting people and giving them things.

Instinctual variant and your mind and gut also contribute to your actions. I, a 278, might try to make myself more wanted by being a singular fun and happy influence that will attract people while a 296 might try to make themselves more wanted by becoming a fundamental part of communication. I, a 2w3 sx/so, will care about being wanted by a few select people that I feel are appropriate regardless if they mean me well while a 2w1 so/sp will care about being wanted by a wide variety of people as long as they can provide protection, regardless how they feel otherwise.

From our interactions ED, I don't think you are a 2 dom. Though it being one of the other parts of your tritype is really probable. Also, when typing yourself, it is really common to mistake 9 behaviors for 2. If you have a 9 gut, I don't think your heart is 2. And I mean that in specific terms for you and not in general.

Oh I love this! Thanks for distinguishing between the various tritypes too! I know for me personally, it really helps to understand concepts when variables and controls are put in place so that I can identify the nuances certain interactions give to an idea. In this case, seeing how 278 may differ from a 296, and how the 2 dominance makes them similar, yet flavored differently because the other enneagram types attached.

Nice to know your thoughts on my potential enneagram. I may be a 2 but perhaps not a dom as you say. Or, I could be a 9! I'll consider that as well if the two can be mixed up. I agree though that I don't think I would be both a 2 AND a 9. I did look into 9 before and at least at first glance, putting the 2 and 9 together makes me think of some "happy" complacency, almost to the point of denying any pain or having some sense of reality to things. I know this isn't true of course, but it was a quick judgement I made based on how I read them to be and what putting the two together may result as.

 

[Dreamer]

Also helpful to think of 2 as transactional, but please don't take offense to the word. Is transactional in the sense that the continual need to give comes attached with a sense of desiring receipt. If you're constantly outputting energy to others, you are doing that in order to get something back. If you don't get it, resentment and other negative emotions often build.

Is not necessarily selfish in that sense, but people do ascribe a less than altruistic judgment on this exchange of energy. 2 tends to overlap with Fe moreso than Fi, but there certainly are Fi users motivated by e2. Good luck on your explorations! I would suggest examining tritype as [MENTION=27952]sarcasmsunshine[/MENTION] points out above; could be very helpful to enable you to pin this down or exclude.

Thanks Peacebaby! Hmm, transactional. I know what you mean, and thinking about giving in that way, that's tricky. I don't feel I require any sort of receipt or like I'm keeping tabs. No... I don't. Did I mention it above? (on my phone right now and can't just see the whole thread) but my assistance towards others more relies on how much out of my way the action towards others requires. It doesn't even depend on how close someone is to me. If it's too much out of my way, I don't think I'd even help a close friend. My brother, I'd do anything for since we're closer than peanut butter and jelly in a tightly squished PB&J sandwich in a plastic bag of a 7 year old's lunch bag on an elementary school field trip. But if it doesn't bother me to help someone, then why not? But I'm not looking for compensation or some sort of return, even on an emotional level.

Also admittedly, I haven't considered 2 in the past so much since I do relate so much more to Fi and the idea of being so outwardly focused on others more in relation to Fe doesn't seem to relate to me as much. Nothing against Fe for any reason, but the focus has just been more on my needs more than anything externally.

I'd be curious to learn more of the Fi 2s out there and seeing what that internal dynamic is like though and seeing if I can relate to that. Great things to consider, thank you!

 

[Starry]

Haven't read a single word of the thread yet...only the title and with that had to say that I feel inspired by the way you dive into things for the purpose of exploration and discovery. I'm going to try and emulate this kind of spirit more in my life.

 

[Dreamer]

Haven't read a single word of the thread yet...only the title and with that had to say that I feel inspired by the way you dive into things for the purpose of exploration and discovery. I'm going to try and emulate this kind of spirit more in my life.

That's awesome to hear Starry! But nah, I don't expect you to read through the entire thread, talking about those forum novellas

 

[Starry]

So with the suggestion of [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] and earlier, by [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION], I started looking into the 2 type. There are definitely some elements I can relate with, but one element I don't is in the need or desire to give. I feel it is rather easy for me to see and understand what others need, but it doesn't mean I will give it to them. So long as I don't have to go out of my way to give the person what I know they need, I'll do it. Heck, even for a good friend of mine, if I have to go out of my way, I won't do it unless I sense a real urgency to it. I feel guilt for a brief time thinking I should do it, but I get over it quickly.

I also looked into the differences between ENFP 7s and ENFP 2s, then just out of curiosity ENFP 4s, since the three seem to be the most common enneatypes for ENFPs, and I do see some areas of ENFP 7s that I really just don't relate to too. For example, with social drama, I'd much prefer to just leave the situation even if I'm not involved. It doesn't interest me at all. I don't find it entertaining or even wish to stir the pot a little to get things going. It doesn't pain me or cause me anxiety to be around drama, no, I'm just literally bored to tears from it. Any sort of social happenings like she did this and this and ohhh he did that. Nope, I'll pass on all that.

So any further incites into the 2 type would be helpful. Overall though, have been finding some new and interesting perspectives of the various enneagram types. Even some of the other types I wouldn't normally consider, I've been familiarizing myself with.

I definitely see some connection crossover between 2 and 8. They both can give out the eyeballs and in many ways not even know that they are doing it. In an effort to be free of all that controls them...many 8s will (even) unknowingly deny their own needs and either project or see legitimate forms of their needs in others and care for those people instead. While a good number of 2's on the other hand can feel they need too much (<-whether this is true or not...and it very well may not be). Whether it is entirely conscious or a somewhat hidden thought...they can even start to feel ashamed that they are being too "selfish" or "needy"...and it is in this state that they can miss how much they are actually giving to others...even if it is only of their heart, attention, consideration, time...etc. etc. in an effort to compensate for something no one else sees. Some Givers do have an awareness of how much they give and get pissed when no one gives back. But many don't have a clue for the reasons I just mentioned.


And quickly to clarify regarding ENFP 7...what you said above doesn't rule out 7 as a possibility. And 7 is definitely in your make-up one way or the other.

 

[Starry]

That's awesome to hear Starry! But nah, I don't expect you to read through the entire thread, talking about those forum novellas

I want to though. And I'm not going to let the fact I'm not very good at reading stop me!

 

[Starry]

2 that doesn't want to give is like 5 that is not interested in knowledge, none bossy 8 or 7 that doesn't care about fun all that much.


Therefore such 2 is probably mistyped person.

If this were true...what reason do you supposed so many people struggle with the enneagram? Why do so many people fumble around with a few different types before getting it right? Usually with a pronounced sense of "I can't believe I didn't see this in myself" like Hard mentioned...

If enneagram was this obvious why do so many people say that the fastest way to get yourself accurately typed...is to start by examining the points that make you laugh in a "no way is that me" kind of way or cringe?



I'm interested in your take here but disagree wholeheartedly and respectfully with what you wrote above. The enneagram deals with core fears...and the ways in which we hide those core fears from ourselves. If one of the things a 2 feels ashamed of is a sense of possessing too many needs or a fear that they need more than others and are selfish and unlovable because of it...and subsequently give as a way to alleviate and/or hide that fear ...then "giving" can definitely be a blindspot for them imo.

Kinda like how I used to think I dealt with my problems and pain head-on because...like an insane person...I was somehow able to trick myself into imagining that distraction and forward movement actually was... "I dealt with it. I solved whatever that thing was that may have been bothering me."

 

[Virtual ghost]

If this were true...what reason do you supposed so many people struggle with the enneagram? Why do so many people fumble around with a few different types before getting it right? Usually with a pronounced sense of "I can't believe I didn't see this in myself" like Hard mentioned...

If enneagram was this obvious why do so many people say that the fastest way to get yourself accurately typed...is to start by examining the points that make you laugh in a "no way is that me" kind of way or cringe?

It is quite simple for me. People are often unaware of who they are and they need to reasearch this further, however the boxes into which a person can be placed are all pretty well or stereotypically defined. People struggle but they struggle with themselves, not the system. Therefore in the end you just have to choose the box that fits you the most. In the case that is e2 you have the tendecy to help others to feel better or provide love/stuff in order to feel loved or useful.

The only real problem here is that people are much more complicated then enneagram types.
However if you don't fit at all the basic "standard" of a type the odds are that you are mistyped or unusually healthy/unhealthy person.

Therefore I said what I said.

2 that doesn't want to give is like 5 that is not interested in knowledge, none bossy 8 or 7 that doesn't care about fun all that much.


Therefore such 2 is probably mistyped person.