[SJ] Breaking rules is cool

[Walking Tourist]

If you're on a busy street, you might try Jayrunning!

I don't know about you, but I think Jaywalking rocks!

 

[Fuent]

Oh, okay

Haha nice...

Good call.

 

[Cimarron]

Sometimes, rules don't make any sense and they ought to be broken. For example, in Buffalo, New York, it is against the rules for bus drivers to inform other bus drivers that they are running late and to please wait to pick up passengers. Sometimes, because bus drivers are so eager to follow the rules, passengers end up out in the cold for up to an hour waiting for their connecting bus. And there are times when they reach the corner where they have to wait, just to see the connecting bus go through the light and go bye bye.
How annoying is that... just because of mindless rule-following.

What you've given here is a reason why that rule shouldn't exist. You make a good point, and they ought to look into the efficiency of it. At least, from an amateur observer, that's how it looks.

But you haven't given a reason why that rule should exist--in other words, the reason why the rule was created in the first place. So we're only seeing one side of the issue here.

(I'm not picking on you. Just trying to bring in a little discussion. )

 

[Walking Tourist]

I don't have any idea of why this rule exists. I asked the bus driver, and he was clueless, too. I'm sure that there was a reason for it at some point, probably years ago, when buses ran a whole lot more frequently and, if you missed your connecting bus, the next one would come in five to ten minutes, rather than in 45 minutes to an hour.
Anyway, it's just a guess about a bad rule.
I did ask once at a meeting of the transit company why the bus schedules were not designed so that people would make their connecting buses, instead of miss them. The person said that was too difficult of a job. I would think that a good computer programmer would be able to design a more user-friendly schedule.
Then the silly rule would cease to be an issue.
I'm sure I could find some other rules that I would be able to break (since I'm not a bus driver and can't violate that one!!!)

What you've given here is a reason why that rule shouldn't exist. You make a good point, and they ought to look into the efficiency of it. At least, from an amateur observer, that's how it looks.

But you haven't given a reason why that rule should exist--in other words, the reason why the rule was created in the first place. So we're only seeing one side of the issue here.

(I'm not picking on you. Just trying to bring in a little discussion. )

 

[sarah]

To all types:

Do you think society expresses the belief that "breaking rules is cool," sometimes even if they wouldn't break those rules themselves?

Why do you think this is so?

I think society is fascinated with rule-breakers because so many people don't dare break any rules out of fear or unwillingness to accept the consequences. So we glorify such people in books, movies, etc.

I think we'd do better as a society to train children (and adults!) to freely question pointless rules, to disobey rules that shouldn't exist, but to respect the ones that exist for good reason.

 

[Geoff]

I think society is fascinated with rule-breakers because so many people don't dare break any rules out of fear or unwillingness to accept the consequences. So we glorify such people in books, movies, etc.

I think we'd do better as a society to train children (and adults!) to freely question pointless rules, to disobey rules that shouldn't exist, but to respect the ones that exist for good reason.

I like this, it fits with my rules in life, haha.

The difficulty with this approach though - admirable as it is - is that children aren't knowledgeable enough to understand what rules are pointless or not. So in practical terms you have to do the "just because" thing, and then try and correct as they grow up. So present them the rules "don't steal" and later try and educate them in society's ethics and morals so that they can determine for themselves whether they follow them when they reach adulthood. No easy answers....

 

[sarah]

I like this, it fits with my rules in life, haha.

The difficulty with this approach though - admirable as it is - is that children aren't knowledgeable enough to understand what rules are pointless or not. So in practical terms you have to do the "just because" thing, and then try and correct as they grow up. So present them the rules "don't steal" and later try and educate them in society's ethics and morals so that they can determine for themselves whether they follow them when they reach adulthood. No easy answers....

Well, right, obviously very young kids aren't going to always making the best choices. I guess I meant more that we'd do well to train children to develop critical thinking skills.

I'm thinking that children could be taught to at least attempt to think things through instead of thinking of rules as being something you obey in order to avoid punishment (which can lead to kids purposely disobeying rules simply because they exist, or trying to see how much they can "get away with" for the sheer fun of being sneaky). If a child thinks a certain rule is worthless, then he could be given the opportunity to modify it by explaining to parents why it doesn't work, as well as propose an alternative action that would accomplish the same thing. If it's reasonable, the adults can choose to go with the child's proposal, but they'd still have veto power in case the kid is full of Bad Ideas.

 

[Geoff]

Well, right, obviously very young kids aren't going to always making the best choices. I guess I meant more that we'd do well to train children to develop critical thinking skills.

I'm thinking that children could be taught to at least attempt to think things through instead of thinking of rules as being something you obey in order to avoid punishment (which can lead to kids purposely disobeying rules simply because they exist, or trying to see how much they can "get away with" for the sheer fun of being sneaky). If a child thinks a certain rule is worthless, then he could be given the opportunity to modify it by explaining to parents why it doesn't work, as well as propose an alternative action that would accomplish the same thing. If it's reasonable, the adults can choose to go with the child's proposal, but they'd still have veto power in case the kid is full of Bad Ideas.

I suppose we have to add to this the difference between criminal rules and civil rules.

It's easy to understand why one shouldn't kill a fellow human for no good reason (if for no other, it could lead to us being killed or punished in response). But less easy to understand why one shouldn't park without paying for a ticket. Or speed when the conditions are good and the driver is alert.

These areas are grey for mature adults, let alone youngsters.

 

[kyuuei]

If you thought that was bad Walking, on larger bases overseas they aren't allowed to give anyone the schedule the bus runs. Meaning you have to stand at the stop and HOPE it didn't just take off on its hour and a half route before refueling and circling to pick you up. You have no way of knowing when to meet the bus.

 

[sarah]

I suppose we have to add to this the difference between criminal rules and civil rules.

It's easy to understand why one shouldn't kill a fellow human for no good reason (if for no other, it could lead to us being killed or punished in response). But less easy to understand why one shouldn't park without paying for a ticket. Or speed when the conditions are good and the driver is alert.

These areas are grey for mature adults, let alone youngsters.

well, yeah, okay, I guess I'm just wondering aloud about why pointless rulers exist if they don't help anyone, and I'm thinking if people can be trained to be more critical about what they accept as worthy of obedience, maybe the people to make and enforce rules wouldn't be so inclined to make pointless rules in the first place. Or not.

Probably not. This is why I think it would be a Very Bad Idea to appoint me as world dictator.

 

[Cimarron]

I think we'd do better as a society to train children (and adults!) to freely question pointless rules, to disobey rules that shouldn't exist, but to respect the ones that exist for good reason.

You don't think this is how it is right now?

Your point about punishment was interesting, too.

 

[sarah]

You don't think this is how it is right now?

Your point about punishment was interesting, too.

I think many parents still resort to capital punishment because they don't know how to discipline with logic. Too much carrot-and-stick, and not enough of helping kids develop an ability to sort out right from wrong, and understand that for every action they take, there are consequences.

I work in a public building, and I hear many parents simply bossing their children around rather than interacting wtih them, and I also see them "disciplining" by offering rewards or punishments. I also see parents making up rules on the spot that have no reason behind them other than the convenience of the parent, which makes me think that sooner or later those kids are going to get a kick out of rebelling just to see how long they can avoid punishment.

 

[Cimarron]

I also see parents making up rules on the spot that have no reason behind them other than the convenience of the parent, which makes me think that sooner or later those kids are going to get a kick out of rebelling just to see how long they can avoid punishment.

Hmm, I think I've seen this, too.

 

[Nihilen]

I think many parents still resort to capital punishment because they don't know how to discipline with logic.

Wtf.

 

[Cimarron]

Related, but slightly different from the OP: I was reading one of Keirsey's books, and as he used the word "duty" for the 20th time, I felt he was laughing at me, snickering behind his hand at us SJs. Then I found the reason.

Why are people so afraid of the word "duty?" Is "responsibility" better?

Its meaning is slightly different. "Responsibility" implies it being optional, but that there are also consequences involved. If Keirsey, Myers-Briggs, et al meant this instead of "duty," then why didn't they put it? They must not have meant it.

 

[raz]

You don't like the word duty because you have a sense of duty to things you don't really care about. No, not really. Duty is a good word to keep inside your head to describe the idea. But when you speak, translate it to responsibility.

 

[The Ü™]

I giggle when I hear the word duty.

 

[sarah]

Related, but slightly different from the OP: I was reading one of Keirsey's books, and as he used the word "duty" for the 20th time, I felt he was laughing at me, snickering behind his hand at us SJs. Then I found the reason.

Why are people so afraid of the word "duty?" Is "responsibility" better?

Its meaning is slightly different. "Responsibility" implies it being optional, but that there are also consequences involved. If Keirsey, Myers-Briggs, et al meant this instead of "duty," then why didn't they put it? They must not have meant it.

I would think that most SJs who prefer to choose what to spend their time doing would prefer the word responsibility. "Duty" implies that you didn't have a choice but to accept responsibility for something you don't care about. "Responsibility" implies that at some point you made a conscious decision, by accepting a job, or making lifelong commitments, starting a family, etc.

Yet ANOTHER reason why I prefer Berens' explanations over Keirsey's as far as temperament is concerned! She uses the word responsibility to describe the values of SJs rather than duty, and that seems to be a much more accurate representation of the SJs I know.

 

[EJCC]

I would think that most SJs who prefer to choose what to spend their time doing would prefer the word responsibility. "Duty" implies that you didn't have a choice but to accept responsibility for something you don't care about. "Responsibility" implies that at some point you made a conscious decision, by accepting a job, or making lifelong commitments, starting a family, etc.

You make an interesting point. I often feel like "duty" is a better word, however (but not all the time). For example, I'll get mad at friends/family for "forcing" me to do things, when in truth all they did was ask me, and I felt like I had no choice. Often, the idea of saying no doesn't even occur to me. There's some other thread about SJs and obligation that goes over this far more eloquently, but I can't remember what it's called.

EDIT: I still think you're right. It's responsibility more often than not... but it's duty sometimes too (especially in family situations).

 

[sarah]

You make an interesting point. I often feel like "duty" is a better word, however (but not all the time). For example, I'll get mad at friends/family for "forcing" me to do things, when in truth all they did was ask me, and I felt like I had no choice. Often, the idea of saying no doesn't even occur to me. There's some other thread about SJs and obligation that goes over this far more eloquently, but I can't remember what it's called.

EDIT: I still think you're right. It's responsibility more often than not... but it's duty sometimes too (especially in family situations).

I'm glad for your perspective -- it's rather hard for me to think about the preferences of SJs without projecting a bit of what I prefer into it. I panic at the word "duty," and tend to assume everyone else in the world feels the same way. But am fascinated that it strikes a positive chord in some SJs.

I have noticed that a number of SJs I know actually enjoy being asked to take on responsibilities, even if they already have a lot on their plate. And even if they complain about being taken for granted. I wonder if it's the being- asked that feels like an honor? (In contrast to that, I only enjoy being asked to take on artistic projects, and if I can't find a way of making a project an artistic statement of my own, then I usually avoid responsibilities that aren't directly related to something I deeply value). If you can find the link to the thread about SJs and obligations, I'd be interested in reading it.