[Traditional Enneagram] BlackCat's MBTI and Enneatype correlation chart

[CzeCze]

Nice job BlackCat! Don't you have a resident "let BlackCat type you!" thread?

 

[BlackCat]

Ultimately I am inclined to disagree that any sort of combination between Enneagram and JCF is necessarily impossible, even for the reasons that you have mentioned, however I have lost interest in the subject to formulate a really long argument to your thesis.

I used to mildly think that anyone could be anything, but that they would just be exceptionally rare. Then I started reading stuff like Naranjo and my mind got changed. It's really that important. Like I've said in other threads, I think that there is a degree of understanding when it comes to the enneagram that you attain when you read Naranjo vs any other book.

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

Speaking for myself, I don't relate to the portrait of the 6 at all, either phobic or counterphobic.

 

[Zarathustra]

Ok, so with [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]'s permission, I updated his MBTI-Enneagram correlation chart with a better color scheme:

 

[Zarathustra]

Oh, and here are my observations, comments, and questions:

Observations:
ISJs (Si) are highest correlated with enneagram 1
EFJs (Fe) are highest correlated with enneagram 2
Extroverts are highest correlated with enneagram 3 (ET>EF)
IFPs (Fi) are highest correlated with enneagram 4 (INFJs are only other significantly correlated type)
ITPs (Ti) are highest correlated with enneagram 5
Every MBTI type is correlated with enneagram 6
ETJs (Te) are highest correlated with enneagram 6 [ - question/doubt/are skeptical of the objective truth (Te) of statements, propositions, beliefs? - supress Fi]
EPs (Pe) are highest correlated with enneagram 7 [ - fight anxiety by immersing themselves (i.e., their dominant perceptive functions) in the external world]
ETJs (Te) are highest correlated with enneagram 8
ESPs (Se) are highly correlated with enneagram 8 [ - accounts for "Te flavor" of Se in Socionics]
Introverts are highest correlated with enneagram 9 (IP>IJ, F>T)

Barely any Ps are 1s (lulz) (only 3/4 IPs)
No Ts are 2s (lulz)
Barely any Is are 3s (only INTJ and ISTP [in that order])
Barely any Ts are 4s (only INTP and INTJ)
Few Es are 5s (only ENTPs)
Is are more likely to be 6w5s
Es are more likely to be 6w7s
Few Is are 7s (only SPs)
Few Is are 8s (only ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ)
Barely any Es are 9s (only EFPs [and those are rare])

NFs are somewhat correlated with 4
NTs are somewhat correlated with 5
SJs are highly correlated with 1
SPs are somewhat correlated with 7

No IJs are 7s or 8w7s
No EPs are 1s (lulz)
Few EPs are 2s (only the EFPs [and those are rare/uncommon])
Few EPs are 4s (only ENFPs [and those are uncommon])
No EJs are 5s
No EJs are 9s (??)

No IFPs (Fi, suppress Te) are 3s (??)
No ETJs (Te, suppress Fi) are 4s
No EFJs are 8s (??)

ISTPs have the second most (non-weighted) variation in their enneagram types
ISTJs have the least variation in their enneagram types
ISTJs are one of four types with no rare type
INFJs are the only type without a very common type
INTJs are only non-Ti-dom highly correlated with enneagram 5
ENTPs are one of four types with no rare type
ENTPs have similar enneagram types as ESTPs, but are more likely to be 5s, and less likely to be 8s
ESTPs are one of four types with no rare types
ESTPs have the most very common enneagram types
ESTPs have the most (weighted) variation in their enneagram types
ENFPs have the most (non-weighted) variation in their enneagram types

Most likely 2s: EFJs>ISFJ>INFJ>EFPs and ISFP>INFP [ - Fe is giving, Fi is selfish ]
ENPs are equally likely as ESPs to be 7s, but ESPs (Se) are more likely to be 8s than ENPs (Ne)


6s, 9s, and 3s are the least correlated to any one MBTI type
Among enneagram 6s, extroverts are more likely to be 6w7, and introverts 6w5
Only Fs who are commonly 6w5s are INFPs and INFJs
Only Is who are commonly 6w7s are the sensors
Only Es who are commonly 6w5s are ENTP, ENTJ, and ESTJ

Questions:
No IFPs are 3s?
No ESFP 4s?
No ENFJ 8s or 9s? Martin Luther King? Reagan?
No ENTJ 9s? How about [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION] (or is she 8w9)?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Are INFP 9w1's really uber-common? Empirically, I don't feel like there are many of us on the forum ...

 

[Glycerine]

Oh, and here are my observations, comments, and questions:



Questions:
No IFPs are 3s?
No ESFP 4s?
No ENFJ 8s or 9s? Martin Luther King? Reagan?
No ENTJ 9s? How about Wind-Up Rex (or is she 8w9)?

[MENTION=9766]Juice[/MENTION] is ENFJ 8. It seems about right. lol

 

[Zarathustra]

Are INFP 9w1's really uber-common? Empirically, I don't feel like there are many of us on the forum ...

From my experience, when you think INFP, you think 4w5, then 9w1.

All other enneagram types are definitely behind those two.

[MENTION=9766]Juice[/MENTION] is ENFJ 8. It seems about right. lol

Yeah, I would think ENFJ 8s would get at least a rare, if not an uncommon (a common even?).

 

[Glycerine]

yeah agreed. ENFJ is one of the "in charge" types so I don't think it would be completely farfetched for an ENFJ to be 8.

We ENFJs can be some controlling mofos.

 

[Zarathustra]

One of the other interesting things I noticed while looking over [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]'s chart is that it works like a "heat index" pointing to the most likely tritypes for each of the MBTI types. Wherever its darkest in each of the triads, that's where someone of that MBTI type is most likely to have a fix in that triad. So like, I've been noticing that almost all my EP friends seem to be some version of the 378 ("The Mover and Shaker") tritype, and, well, take a look at the chart, and that's what the heat index would point you to. I, myself, am either a 683 ("The Justice Fighter") or a 684 ("The Truth Teller"), and, once again, look at the chart, and it points to either one of those two for INTJs, or one of the others that I've also considered (583, 584, 613, 614, 513, 514).

 

[011235813]

IxFP 3's do exist according to [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION], and I remember that [MENTION=10654]Noon[/MENTION], who is an ISFP, was considering e3 for herself for a while. I don't know if she's still doing that or not.

 

[BlackCat]

Questions:
No IFPs are 3s?
No ESFP 4s?
No ENFJ 8s or 9s? Martin Luther King? Reagan?
No ENTJ 9s? How about Wind-Up Rex (or is she 8w9)?

Thanks for a great summarization and for the color redo/observations!

As for the questions-

IFP 3s- I've been very confused by a few, select IFPs who have seemed 3 to me. The way that 3 would have manifested in them would be totally unconscious, since they are Fi dom they would legitimately think that they were how they were acting, AND get personally attached to it and defend who they are in that moment as if it were who they've been their entire lives. But yet, the way that they had reacted to situations and such told me 4, but they were also very strongly 3. I concluded for them that they were 4w3s. Some supposed IFP 4s could be social last EFPs, who would appear introverted to the less educated.

ESFP 4- As much as I want to believe that these exist, Se dom and 4 just simply cannot exist in the same person I think. Se doms would be far too... present in reality to really go down the 4 defense path I think. 4s get very skewed in their perceptions of reality. It doesn't seem like Se doms really give that much of a shit, and really aren't skewed that much in their perceptions (one of the key qualities about unhealthy to average 4s is that they are jaded, and becoming healthy and integrating to 1 causes them to lose some of this jadedness, and most Se doms that I meet seem to be anything but jaded, they are very exact and sure of their definitions of reality). They are totally there with reality, who they are within that reality, and fit right in with it. It doesn't make sense for them to think of the "other side" (the way 4s see it) and identify that strongly with it. The only ESFPs that I've known to do that have been 6s, and it's been specifically because of some reality oriented reason. The "other side" being related to "the man" or a certain group of individuals that they see as being untrustworthy. CP 6 ESPs also love being edgy in general to get reactions and feel some form of power for themselves, which ESFPs could get an identity in and be "different" in that way. But it would be for a 6 reason and not a 4 reason.

4s are also categorized as highly inwardly based and introspective... and Se dom. Yeah. A lot of ESFPs that I know really aren't that self aware at all, and have a hard time going inward with questions that really test them. ESFPs also don't seem to constantly be comparing themselves to other people, they just take information as it is typically in an Se dom fashion. A lot of ESFPs that I know don't discriminate that much with their friends and will hang out with pretty much anyone, and don't typically have that secretly snobby attitude that 4s do.

ENFJ 8/9- ENFJ 8 is another one of those typings I haven't really given much thought to, simply because of how ridiculous it seems. This is another one of those cases where I think that these people could be confusing themselves with counter-phobic 6s. If you read Naranjo he characterizes 8s as being a sadistic person who relishes seeing other's frustration and pain (and perhaps because of the fact that they themselves feel it and they want to make others feel as they do, in extremes and in a very angry way). They are also characterized and being conniving at heart, obsessed with dominance. They deny the effect that they have on others if it's negative and don't really care about how others feel. They are also characterized as being primarily "here and now" people, who aren't focused as much inwardly (you see a lot of TeSe ENTJs, who honestly have a hard time with their intuition). They desensitize themselves to the feelings of others and their own. An ENFJ "8" is probably just a counterphobic 6 who is unhealthy/just a dick.

As for ENFJ 9, that is indeed an oversight, and I need to change it to uncommon or rare. I know for certain that it's possible, as strange as it is. You make a good point with Reagan and MLK.

ENTJ 9- I still think the idea of an ENTJ 9 is ridiculous... The apathy, the totally passive attitude, the fact that most 9s totally avoid introspection and aren't exactly the intellectual kind. The way 9s deal with issues is avoiding them until they're forced to deal with them. 9s a lot of the time tend to be irresponsible with issues pertaining to reality because of their laziness. 9s cut corners and tend to take the easy way out. Everything revolves around their own sense of comfort. Really not ENTJ. I could understand INTJ, as rare as that would be, but a Te dom 9 seems to be out of the question. As for rex herself, she self types as INTJ and 9w8.

 

[Hate]

ENFJ 8/9- ENFJ 8 is another one of those typings I haven't really given much thought to, simply because of how ridiculous it seems. This is another one of those cases where I think that these people could be confusing themselves with counter-phobic 6s. If you read Naranjo he characterizes 8s as being a sadistic person who relishes seeing other's frustration and pain (and perhaps because of the fact that they themselves feel it and they want to make others feel as they do, in extremes and in a very angry way). They are also characterized and being conniving at heart, obsessed with dominance. They deny the effect that they have on others if it's negative and don't really care about how others feel. They are also characterized as being primarily "here and now" people, who aren't focused as much inwardly (you see a lot of TeSe ENTJs, who honestly have a hard time with their intuition). They desensitize themselves to the feelings of others and their own. An ENFJ "8" is probably just a counterphobic 6 who is unhealthy/just a dick.

I am not a counterphobic 6 as your statement suggests.

Not a single person that knows me on this forum would argue I was anything other than 8w7.

 

[Glycerine]

I am not a counterphobic 6 as your statement suggests.

Not a single person that knows me on this forum would argue I was anything other than 8w7.

You being a CP 6 seems quite laughable.

 

[garbage]

Is Naranjo the gold standard? His Enneagram descriptions are among the best, but I'm not exactly a fan of most of his correlations with MBTI types (primarily because he cites Kiersey, whereas.. we, well, don't), and I'd hope that his correlations wouldn't factor into ours.

 

[Southern Kross]

Honestly I've met a lot of 4w3 INFPs. I think a lot of INFP 4w5s could be mistyped, since 3s and 5s can be deceptively similar when it comes to the intellectual realm. The 3 wing could push them to be more intellectual if that's the way that they felt they should be, for example. I hate generalizing type based on gender, but a lot of INFP males I meet seem to be more 4w5 than 4w3, and a lot of INFP females seem more 4w3 than 4w5. But that's more theory than anything.

Something for me to think on...

I'll have to investigate this more, I think that a lot of STJs who can seem 2ish could just be 1w2 and "the way things should be" happens to include other people. I correlate Si more with 1. 1 tendencies are very broad, yet not at the same time. They're a really varied crowd, but the way that it manifests doesn't seem so varied.

Oh, I would say 1 is stronger but I think 2 can work well even with STJs. I'm thinking of the sort that do all that volunteering work, raising money for charity, coaching sports, baking cakes etc. Some do it in a 1w2 way but some seem more 2w1; less for idealogical reasons than the 1s but for more personal, if-I-don't-do-it-no-one-will way. When I think of my ISTJ grandmother she totally fits the 2-style "needing to be needed" and matyrdom issues.

Anyway it was just a thought.

INFJs to me have always seemed like the jack of all trades, master of none type when it comes to these correlations. They seem really varied, but without anything dominating any other type, hence types like 1w2 and 4w5 being equal IMO. So that's why they wouldn't receive a red square. I see the red squares as being completely dominant and more shaping people's general perceptions of the MBTI types, like type 1 ISJs, 9w8 ISPs etc. A lot of MBTI stereotypes come from the red squared correlations IMO (and yet you read INFJ descriptions, and they are so incredibly hard to describe, because of what I've pointed out!).

Interesting. That makes sense.

No. 9w8>9w1 for ISPs. SP and type 1 is incompatible like 90% of the time, but I've met two ISTP type 1w9s in my life, I had initially typed them as ISTJs. The SP's do now, think later approach or think while doing approach just simply doesn't seem to be compatible with type 1 tendencies, but ISTPs are weird in this regard because Ti could lead them down the path of 1ness (same goes with INTPs). I think that these ISTPs repress their impulses and rationalize a lot with TiNi (integration to 7 would be a hilarious sight though), and the INTPs who are 1s get stuck in TiSi thinking and don't care as much to expand beyond their scope of reality.

A lot of ISFPs are 9w8s. 9w8s are generally really warm and talkative people, but have a bit of a blunt, earthy edge to them. When people think ISFP male, they think 9w8. When people think ISFP female, they tend to think 4w3 (hence the two red square slots). A lot of 9w8 ISFP women get mistaken for ISTPs. 9w8s often keep their 8 side hidden away if they are awakened 9s, or they are totally unaware of it and it comes out in abrupt Se outbursts, Fi outrages, or Ni/Te freakouts. A lot of 9s would hate to go all 8 on someone, even if they may think things like that, their main way of doing things makes them naturally have to either balance it or repress it, so either way they won't be a true 8 and won't really act like a true 8 (which would be kinda nuts for an ISFP).

Well I certainly get how ISTPs fit 9w8 because my Dad is both. Hmm, I will have to think more on the ISFP 9w8.

That's what I've been trying to figure out for around 6-7 years now.

Damn it. You need to work on that.

 

[Savage Idealist]

I was going to ignore the 'some types are inherently incompatible' argument, but I can't stand by this nonsense without inserting my own commentary into the matter.

IFP 3s- I've been very confused by a few, select IFPs who have seemed 3 to me. The way that 3 would have manifested in them would be totally unconscious, since they are Fi dom they would legitimately think that they were how they were acting, AND get personally attached to it and defend who they are in that moment as if it were who they've been their entire lives. But yet, the way that they had reacted to situations and such told me 4, but they were also very strongly 3. I concluded for them that they were 4w3s. Some supposed IFP 4s could be social last EFPs, who would appear introverted to the less educated.

Could you specify what you mean a here in more detail?

ESFP 4- As much as I want to believe that these exist, Se dom and 4 just simply cannot exist in the same person I think. Se doms would be far too... present in reality to really go down the 4 defense path I think. 4s get very skewed in their perceptions of reality. It doesn't seem like Se doms really give that much of a shit, and really aren't skewed that much in their perceptions (one of the key qualities about unhealthy to average 4s is that they are jaded, and becoming healthy and integrating to 1 causes them to lose some of this jadedness, and most Se doms that I meet seem to be anything but jaded, they are very exact and sure of their definitions of reality). They are totally there with reality, who they are within that reality, and fit right in with it. It doesn't make sense for them to think of the "other side" (the way 4s see it) and identify that strongly with it. The only ESFPs that I've known to do that have been 6s, and it's been specifically because of some reality oriented reason. The "other side" being related to "the man" or a certain group of individuals that they see as being untrustworthy. CP 6 ESPs also love being edgy in general to get reactions and feel some form of power for themselves, which ESFPs could get an identity in and be "different" in that way. But it would be for a 6 reason and not a 4 reason.

4s are also categorized as highly inwardly based and introspective... and Se dom. Yeah. A lot of ESFPs that I know really aren't that self aware at all, and have a hard time going inward with questions that really test them. ESFPs also don't seem to constantly be comparing themselves to other people, they just take information as it is typically in an Se dom fashion. A lot of ESFPs that I know don't discriminate that much with their friends and will hang out with pretty much anyone, and don't typically have that secretly snobby attitude that 4s do.

And what if one were focused on the external present reality and their inner existential self? You seem to be splitting this dichotomy between one who indulges in the sensory atmosphere of the immediate world and one who introspects on the delicate matter of their true character. Thing is, those aren't mutually exclusive to one another, and one could easily embody both.

An Se dom 4 would merely be an individual who takes both the immediate reality life at some level of face value but also acknowledges who they as a person might fit into that reality. They're motivated by a sense of finding some aspect of themselves in addition to experiencing what the world has to offer. Or perhaps they bask in their own defects, envious of what others possess, and yet, a materialistic, hedonistic, and do things within the moment, often based on their own feelings that originate from their own personal flaws.

Se is merely a means of in-taking data, that is sensory data of the immediate environment, 4 is merely a motivation concerning self-image and authentic personal identity.

ENFJ 8/9- ENFJ 8 is another one of those typings I haven't really given much thought to, simply because of how ridiculous it seems. This is another one of those cases where I think that these people could be confusing themselves with counter-phobic 6s. If you read Naranjo he characterizes 8s as being a sadistic person who relishes seeing other's frustration and pain (and perhaps because of the fact that they themselves feel it and they want to make others feel as they do, in extremes and in a very angry way). They are also characterized and being conniving at heart, obsessed with dominance. They deny the effect that they have on others if it's negative and don't really care about how others feel. They are also characterized as being primarily "here and now" people, who aren't focused as much inwardly (you see a lot of TeSe ENTJs, who honestly have a hard time with their intuition). They desensitize themselves to the feelings of others and their own. An ENFJ "8" is probably just a counterphobic 6 who is unhealthy/just a dick.

Since when the fuck are 8's evil? I suppose it doesn't matter though; there's no such thing as '8's' in reality, rather it's a defined archetype that can be reformed by anyone's own choosing. Naranjo in this case defines the normally strong willed power seeking 8 as some sort of fucking monster hell-bent on making others suffer, which sounds like a narrow version of the original/basic 8. So Naranjo's '8' is defined as that, but other '8s' are not.

That said, I still see no reason why Naranjo's 8 is somehow incompatible with Fe dom, unless of course one is defining Fe as 'loves all PEOPLES!' sort of deal. However most contemporary definitions portray Fe as a method of defining ethics (and all ethics are relative); that is a set of ethics adopted from an external source of some sort, which can also tie in with ones relation to their social standing with peers or certain social rules. This can manifest in compassion and kindness, it can also manifest in adherence to vicious morals and self serving sycophants. Sadistic asshole maniac who follows the values of his equally twisted culture? Sounds like an ENFJ 8 to me.

ENTJ 9- I still think the idea of an ENTJ 9 is ridiculous... The apathy, the totally passive attitude, the fact that most 9s totally avoid introspection and aren't exactly the intellectual kind. The way 9s deal with issues is avoiding them until they're forced to deal with them. 9s a lot of the time tend to be irresponsible with issues pertaining to reality because of their laziness. 9s cut corners and tend to take the easy way out. Everything revolves around their own sense of comfort. Really not ENTJ. I could understand INTJ, as rare as that would be, but a Te dom 9 seems to be out of the question. As for rex herself, she self types as INTJ and 9w8.

So wait, Naranjo defined 9 as being basically anti-cerebral to its core in literally every aspect of life? Okay, how are his interpretation of this stuff so groundbreaking? Is it his prose style of writing or something that makes him so persuasive? Whatever.

Te never seemed to me to be that 'thought oriented', at least not literally. Te was more about adhering to a certain set of objective standards and following external frameworks that are proven to work. That doesn't require a strong thought process of any sort, in fact it can be downright dogmatic. And in that respect, it could easily fit with the Naranjo 9; dude who wants to minimize all possible stress or conflict in life, so he latches onto and rigidly follows a certain set of rules that will fit in line with that goal. As for the original 9 definition, that could easily be compatible with ENTJ, no doubt about it.

 

[BlackCat]

(real response will be later today)

 

[Southern Kross]

(real response will be later today)

Is that your evil 8 wing rearing its head?

 

[BlackCat]

I am not a counterphobic 6 as your statement suggests.

Not a single person that knows me on this forum would argue I was anything other than 8w7.

I do think ENFJ 8 is for sure a possibility, but my statement still stands that a lot of people who think that they are 8s turn out being CP 6s. With the newest revision I was going to add ENFJ 8 to "rare" most likely.

Is Naranjo the gold standard? His Enneagram descriptions are among the best, but I'm not exactly a fan of most of his correlations with MBTI types (primarily because he cites Kiersey, whereas.. we, well, don't), and I'd hope that his correlations wouldn't factor into ours.

Yeah some of his correlations are silly. Like INTJ 7.

Oh, I would say 1 is stronger but I think 2 can work well even with STJs. I'm thinking of the sort that do all that volunteering work, raising money for charity, coaching sports, baking cakes etc. Some do it in a 1w2 way but some seem more 2w1; less for idealogical reasons than the 1s but for more personal, if-I-don't-do-it-no-one-will way. When I think of my ISTJ grandmother she totally fits the 2-style "needing to be needed" and matyrdom issues.

Anyway it was just a thought.

I'll for sure have to give this some thought! Reread the type 2 descriptions and all that with Si in mind. 1w2s can be very typically 2ish in some instances though, [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] comes in mind with that. Another thought is that maybe if said STJ is an sx 1w2 then the 2 wing could be brought out more as a result? Nevertheless I should be considering these offbeat types just in case I happen to run into one and am thrown a bit for a loop.

(No, I'm not totally convinced that some types are 100% incompatible, yes there will always be some strange type combinations that don't make sense. The reason why [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]'s updated color scheme made white "very rare" is for this exact reason. I do still think some type combinations are absolutely ridiculous, like ETJ 4 for example, but I will still include that in "Very Rare" just in case. I told you guys that this was going to get changed over time!)