Atheists celebrating Christmas.

[AzulEyes]

Yeah, I'm actually pretty jealous of that sacredness...I'm trying to get back to that place, but I'm missing something. Still, I enjoy Christmas.

We are all on our own, individual journeys!

 

[Evo]

You know, I think we can even go beyond the simple argument that states our winter festivals are as much pagan (and therefore open to all) as christian (and therefore exclusively connected to christians).

Even if, let's imagine, the Christmas celebrations were conceived by European Christians in the middle ages, as well as the time of these celebrations. Modern day atheist Europeans (to take the obvious example) would still have a perfectly respectable claim to these traditions. For such traditions can be identified not just with christian tradition, but also European tradition (or now western tradition for the anglosphere countries etc). It might be said; well, the rational basis, the metaphorical valuation that gives meaning to said traditions, are christian first and foremost and to that I'd say to some degree, yes. While, on the other hand, this valuation is irrelevant for tradition supplies its own valuation in both cases. So often tradition withstands elimination even while its original meaning has been long ago lost; only the fact it is traditional provides it value. We accept this in most cases. Humans will defend tradition just for being traditional. This is the case for all cases of christmas observance; atheistic or Christian.

[MENTION=15728]AzulEyes[/MENTION] This is your answer ^ and it's the same answer that I came across in my marriage thread.

And similar to you, I understand where people are coming from now...but I don't relate to their views or the traditions at all.

 

[SensEye]

If I were atheist, I personally would never celebrate Christmas. I would personally feel it was hypocritical. And if I'm going to denounce the existance of something, I'm certainly not going to partake in celebratory traditions surrounding it.

I'm pretty sure you would continue to celebrate Christmas. You might not imagine you would, but your worldview would have to take a pretty drastic change for you to become an atheist, and your view on Christmas would likely change with it.

As as been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread, the late December Yule/Winter festival/roman holiday (call it what you will) has been celebrated long before the notion of the "Jesus birth event" was ever associated with it. So there is no hypocrisy that needs be associated with once again de-coupling the celebration from any sacred association the may have erroneously built up as Christianity became entrenched in western culture.

 

[AzulEyes]

I'm pretty sure you would continue to celebrate Christmas. You might not imagine you would, but your worldview would have to take a pretty drastic change for you to become an atheist, and your view on Christmas would likely change with it.

As as been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread, the late December Yule/Winter festival/roman holiday (call it what you will) has been celebrated long before the notion of the "Jesus birth event" was ever associated with it. So there is no hypocrisy that needs be associated with once again de-coupling the celebration from any sacred association the may have erroneously built up as Christianity became entrenched in western culture.

If I did celebrate it as an atheist, it would be to honor family members or friends who it was important to. I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve. But that will never happen. I will die believing in God.

 

[SensEye]

I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve.

I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.

 

[AzulEyes]

I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.

I actually sort of dread celebrations. The meaning of it is more important to me.
It's hard to speculate since I'm a believer.

 

[tinker683]

I don't want to beat this to death, but I think you would still do the parties and gatherings etc. You would do them because they are fun. I think that is why you do them now. You go to church to celebrate the sacred nature of the event.

Seriously! I didn't realize one needed an event to be sacred in order to enjoy ham, mashed potatoes, and laughing at my family. I'm pretty all of those things are enjoyable entirely because...those things are enjoyable by themselves

 

[Coriolis]

If I did celebrate it as an atheist, it would be to honor family members or friends who it was important to. I would not make it a priority in my life, plan parties and gatherings etc. on my own. I know how I am and how this stuff matters to me. But true- if I WERE to be an atheist- the "sacred" part of my determination in this would likely dissolve. But that will never happen. I will die believing in God.

I have been in this place - unable truly to celebrate the birth of Christ, while going through the motions, partly to satisfy others, partly to ease the withdrawal symptoms. Eventually I found something I can celebrate with honesty and true joy at this time of year.

 

[AzulEyes]

I have been in this place - unable truly to celebrate the birth of Christ, while going through the motions, partly to satisfy others, partly to ease the withdrawal symptoms. Eventually I found something I can celebrate with honesty and true joy at this time of year.

Being true to one's self is the most peaceful place to be. And it's okay to go thru some motions for others (I feel) as long as it doesn't overly drain us / we don't overly sacrifice ourselves.

 

[Coriolis]

Being true to one's self is the most peaceful place to be. And it's okay to go thru some motions for others (I feel) as long as it doesn't overly drain us / we don't overly sacrifice ourselves.

Yes. I have no problem being a guest/visitor at someone else's festivities. It's when I feel I have to find the same meaning in them as everyone else that it becomes very frustrating, like trying to be comfortable wearing someone else's shoes.

 

[Amargith]

From what I recall reading, our 'Christmas tree' btw is a Germanic, pagan tradition for protecting the land spirits/ 'germanic fairies' from the bitter cold, in an attempt to appease them so they'd look upon the return of Light favourably - which was the original celebration of Yule - still the norwegian word for Christmas btw. They'd hang bells in the tree so they'd know that when it jingled, the fairy spirit was awake and present, and cookies on the branches as offerings.

Honestly, I find it kind of weird that christians consider 'christmas' part of their tradition, especially all the 'fun stuff' such as gift giving= germanic hospitality rules, santa claus = Wotan on the traditional 12 day Hunt, christmas trees, yule logs, the whole shebang. It's...about as pagan as it gets. Hell, many of them are practising sympathetic magic without even realising it

But, it is tradition to them. It aint so much about the religion, at least not when engaging in those activities. It's about coming together as a family, as a community at a time of year when -let's face it - we 're freezing our asses off and the lack of light is making everyone moody, lonely and blue. It's tradition and it brings the community together. And that's all that matters.

And yes, Easter aint Christian either, nor is Candlemas, for that matter or Halloween/Day of the Dead. People, including christians still celebrate it though, as a community.

So I guess...I could ask Christians the same question you re posing atheists

 

[Coriolis]

And yes, Easter aint Christian either, nor is Candlemas, for that matter or Halloween/Day of the Dead. People, including christians still celebrate it though, as a community.

So I guess...I could ask Christians the same question you re posing atheists

Indeed you could. At Yule, the Goddess gives birth to the new baby God, and the light returns to the world. Christians just want to see Jesus in that baby. Fair enough; it would just be nicer (and truly fair) if they remembered the Goddess as well.

 

[Habba]

This is rather long a topic, so I just skimmed throught the pages. I celebrate christmas because my parents did. It's a family thing. Whole family gets together and has a rest from their busy schedules. There's plenty of lights and candles (it gets pretty dark in Finland), and usully fresh snow. There's also a lot food and sweets to eat. And we eat a lot. Christmas tree is brought in on 23rd and is decorated in the morning of 24th. We usualky sneak presents under the tree during the day and by evening we have Joulupukki (Santa) visit us. Or if there is no kids present, we just share the gifts without Joulupukki. 25th ad 26th are usually for more feasting and visiting some close relatives.

Nothing religious about that. It's actually so what close to the original Yule I think. Celebration of light and warmth in middle of darkest and coldest winter.

 

[Cimarron]

The whole thing is hard to sum up all at once, because you're asking a question with multiple layers in its answer. But this is a good summary of it:

True. But we did it in the first place for the presents the fun and the food. It's just for a while we forgot that was the main reason (on account of most of our ancestors became Christians), and we thought is was a holy dudes birthday. So reverting back to the days when it was only about fun/presents/food is not inconsistent.

Likewise Christians, who may have started celebrating Christs birthday on Dec 25 (when it would seem that date is almost certainly incorrect) can carry on doing so, since they have been doing that for centuries (and since the exact date is unknown anyhow, might as well stick with tradition). It's about the fun/presents/food for Christians too. And they can celebrate their religion on top of that.

I actually used to really like Christmas services back in my psuedo-believer days. That whole fellowship vibe is a legitimate phenomena. Everybody is in such a good mood you can't help but feel the same way.

Though as a non-Christian, I do get what you mean, [MENTION=15728]AzulEyes[/MENTION]. I might think "Why would atheists celebrate a holiday historically central to Christianity?" But then, as people here have said, that is closely followed by thinking, "Why would Christians celebrate this holiday, anyway?" In both cases, I guess, it's what the holiday means now--not what it was intended to mean--that supports people's actions. My opinion is that some people are okay with that way of thinking, and some people are not okay with the incongruency. Stuff like that, personally, would bother me, so I get where your question comes from.

And more generally, I get what you mean that you want your holidays to be about more than a convenient party date on the calendar. Some people don't see a need for that distinction, but I feel you there. No offense to others, I hope, just the way my personal values work.

 

[AzulEyes]

The whole thing is hard to sum up all at once, because you're asking a question with multiple layers in its answer. But this is a good summary of it:
Though as a non-Christian, I do get what you mean, [MENTION=15728]AzulEyes[/MENTION]. I might think "Why would atheists celebrate a holiday historically central to Christianity?" But then, as people here have said, that is closely followed by thinking, "Why would Christians celebrate this holiday, anyway?" In both cases, I guess, it's what the holiday means now--not what it was intended to mean--that supports people's actions. My opinion is that some people are okay with that way of thinking, and some people are not okay with the incongruency. Stuff like that, personally, would bother me, so I get where your question comes from.

And more generally, I get what you mean that you want your holidays to be about more than a convenient party date on the calendar. Some people don't see a need for that distinction, but I feel you there. No offense to others, I hope, just the way my personal values work.

Thanks, ISTJ. I knew I liked you guys.

And not the right place to throw another loop in (lol) but I understand the point of people saying the roots were pagan and winter solstice etc. But let's face it, Jesus completely took it over. (Well- not HIM but his followers.) So are the pagan / WS roots REALLY why non-Christians celebrate the season???? Or is that a convenient excuse to get presents and partake in the fun without having to sell your soul to Jesus?

Thanks to all- everyone has been so great, respectful, enlightening and engaging in this thread! (I am the worst thread maker too- so I am so happy that people actually are talking in one that I made. lol)

 

[Amargith]

Thanks, ISTJ. I knew I liked you guys.

And not the right place to throw another loop in (lol) but I understand the point of people saying the roots were pagan and winter solstice etc. But let's face it, Jesus completely took it over. (Well- not HIM but his followers.) So are the pagan / WS roots REALLY why non-Christians celebrate the season???? Or is that a convenient excuse to get presents and partake in the fun without having to sell your soul to Jesus?

Thanks to all- everyone has been so great, respectful, enlightening and engaging in this thread! (I am the worst thread maker too- so I am so happy that people actually are talking in one that I made. lol)

It is for me- but then I'm pagan.

I do think that the reason so many pagan symbols could not be eradicated out of these holidays by Christianity is because it taps into our humanity. We're a species that tries to make sense of the universe, and that hands down traditions generation after generation to preserve our culture, knowledge and wisdom of our people.

Much like fairy tales - which often also contain pagan symbolism btw - these holidays tap into our psyche. Originally, Christmas was celebrated as the return of light. After the longest night, the sun would return, to grow the crops and ensure that there would be the potential for life again - even in the deepest of winter, there was this ray of hope. It brought people together in the face of adversity - the real fear of starvation, of eternal darkness and cold, which tends to foster a togetherness. Hospitality was a vital virtue in the Germanic culture *because* of the fact that they lived in such a hostile land - the kindness of a stranger in the freezing cold to offer you a roof over your head, even it it is just in the barn, or to give you the gift of a meagre supper...it was often all that stood between you and death in the darkness and cold outside, especially around this time of year, when winter was at its worst.

And THAT is what Christmas is about. It is about that hope, about that kindness, about giving to one another and standing together. It is in that respect also about family, one that extends beyond your blood.

And atheists feel this togetherness just as much as christian or (neo) pagans do. In a way, Jesus became the symbol of that hope as his message surely was in line with this thinking. And similar to Christians not being able to wipe out pagan symbolism from these important moments for our species, atheists whose culture has been influenced heavily by Christianity in the past will still feel comfortable with those Christian rituals in their routines. It's a method they were handed down by their ancestors, a way to express what this time of year invokes in us. It becomes part of the culture, even if it no longer is part of the belief system - much like was the case for paganism.

 

[Red Herring]

[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION] What do you think of Europeans and North Americans celebrating Holi as a completely secular fun party? That would be a case of the West imitating the East, maybe even of cultural appropriation. Holi is becoming increasingly popular in my part of the world.

 

[Coriolis]

And not the right place to throw another loop in (lol) but I understand the point of people saying the roots were pagan and winter solstice etc. But let's face it, Jesus completely took it over. (Well- not HIM but his followers.) So are the pagan / WS roots REALLY why non-Christians celebrate the season???? Or is that a convenient excuse to get presents and partake in the fun without having to sell your soul to Jesus?

One might as well say the old Pagan traditions took over the Jesus story. Much of what people ascribe to Jesus is not substantiated by the earliest accounts of his life and teachings, but rather was co-opted from the contemporary myths of existing deities. This includes ideas like the virgin birth and even the resurrection. As [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] correctly describes, humanity is predisposed to mark this time of year just because of what is going on in the natural world, created by the Creator, whatever we choose to call him/her/them. That is far more compelling than any specific myth or holy book. It is part of what never left me, even when the sum total of my belief system was: deity exists.

 

[garbage]

Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate it, either, on account of the holiday's origins. Y'know -- the non-Christian origins.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION] What do you think of Europeans and North Americans celebrating Holi as a completely secular fun party? That would be a case of the West imitating the East, maybe even of cultural appropriation. Holi is becoming increasingly popular in my part of the world.

That doesn't sound much different from the secular celebration of "Christmas" in the US. As long as you understand what you are celebrating and why, including where your practices originate, there seems little harm in it. In fact, it might help people develop a better appreciation of our common humanity. I always liked the idea of celebrating holidays outside my own cultural traditions, provided I took the time to understand what they are about.