[ENFP] Ask an ENFP

[1487610420]

but why

 

[Starry]

but why

haha


*looks into the future*

phobik and Starry have been banned for a period of one week for actually being PeJi posting clearly off topic fluff.

Because Je.

 

[1487610420]

haha


*looks into the future*

phobik and Starry have been banned for a period of one week for actually being PeJi posting clearly off topic fluff.

Because Je.

 

[uumlau]

Actually, I'm quite proud of the Champion part of my character

But sure, most people don't like it, since suddenly the easy going silly person who mostly has entertainment value takes a hard stand, omg, actually is able to be serious about something, and stand up for it. They especially don't enjoy the easy goingness being revoked as it's kind of taken for granted. And of course, where did their entertainment go?

I guess it is sort of understandable - changing your role with people goes against their expectations and (sudden) big changes are never something people can appreciate

I'm not talking about "standing up for your beliefs". I'm talking about the convictions so ironclad that the ENFP is convinced that anyone who disagrees absolutely must be an awful person, that there could not possibly be any legitimate reason for someone to disagree. Such ENFPs tend to go from "agreeable" straight to "nuclear" without any shades of gray, without any room for compromise, where there is nothing left to do but "fight", and you're either with them or against them.

Also, I'm not talking about all ENFPs, but rather an extreme that is somewhat common for ENFPs. Personally, I've severed one friendship with one such ENFP (not on this forum) because her cause was everything to her, and she was full of bile and hatred for anyone with opposing views. For most ENFPs of my acquaintance, it's more like eggshells/landmines: it will hit by surprise because they usually don't make a big deal out of it, and it is usually very awkward because they get so worked up it's difficult to communicate with them when it happens. I admire standing up for beliefs, I don't admire abusing the people around you who happen to cross the line however inadvertently.

 

[Amargith]

I've done that. Not the condemning and hatred part, but the whole incredulous 'how...can you *NOT* see this is important?' part because it is truly baffling to me. And yes, the frustration at the apathy or in some cases downright sabotage can make one rage. And yes, people do take it really personally that you dare to go intense and passionate about a subject and take it as a personal attack, despite the fact that they often were curious enough to ask you about it in the first place.

I don't condone vilifying others, don't get me wrong. But Ive done the whole 'i don't make a big deal out of it ' and have gotten in that sticky situation of communication failure due to the intensity I summon when that topic does hit accidentally. And it kind of feels like you're screwed either way. If you're talking about it up front with passion, you get labelled as preaching and judgemental, if you don't and the topic comes up, people look at you like you're a nutcase and blame you for ambushing them.

I've even tried walking away and refusing the conversation - people keep prodding til you do go there and then they get pissed that you went there, and the 'wow, she's nuts' look is right there again. And if you just keep it all to yourself, they wonder what you're hiding and why you're never serious or never care about anything.

There is no winning

i've gotten to the point where I bottle up that passion and have actual rehearsed responses that sound calm and rational and satisfying so they'll leave me alone since they don't really care anyways on these topics. I keep the real passion for a venue of my choosing, with the right audience, that actually appreciates it and has been properly vetted. It's regrettable to have to be this calculated in a western world that supposedly supports freedom of speech, tbh.

People just suck at dealing with intense emotions, ime. It makes them uncomfortable, antsy and they honestly don't know what to do with it. I never got that as it seriously hampers honesty and integrity, but I've learned the hard way that people just freak otherwise. And label you irrational and nuts. But sure, it's their right to opt out of a conversation that makes them uncomfortable, I suppose - even if they asked for it themselves.

It's funny though - when I want to opt out of things in life that are hard and uncomfortable for me, I'm told by society to 'grow up already and face reality cos this is how things are'. Feels just a tad hypocritical that we all need to lie to ourselves about being these rational creatures coz people rather not deal with that mess.

 

[Betty Blue]

Always seems odd to me that some people think I am very feisty and go getting and 'wo betide anyone who gets in your way when you are on a mission'. It's the part of me that most makes me sometimes feel I am esfp. Though I do realise that Umlauu's explanation could be key here. It could be sheer bloody minded ness. Jack explained to me that ESFP's (or at least SEE) can argue all day long-comfortably, it's a natural position of theirs which they are very comfortable in. So that puts things into perspective for me because I would be exhausted if I had to do that. I must have retreat and revive space. Though sometimes I can go on for long stints.


Edit: I do also post in the political threads sometimes. Probably just as much as the relationships ones. Oddly I do not tend to post in the philosophy threads much at all. I never post in food threads, occasionally in health threads or astronomy/science threads.

 

[uumlau]

There is no winning

I know where it comes from, and I'm usually VERY forgiving of it. Emotional intensity is a bitch. It is problematic not because I can't tolerate it or I think the person is being preachy. It's problematic either because it's persistent (in terms of the vilifying people case), or - more often - because there is a strong reluctance to go back to it and try to resolve it with clearer heads so it remains a background problem that can continue to blow up unintentionally. Very often, I don't disagree so much as mostly agree, but the inability of the ENFP in the grip of this to hear even slightly different opinions gets in the way. (It's very much an inferior Si "in the grip" situation as per Naomi Quenk.)

Part of this is ENFP traits, part of it is purely being human. The human principle is this: we tend to suck at those things we avoid doing. We avoid them because we suck at them, and we suck at them because we avoid them. The ENFP aspect is that it's this particular passionate devotion to a cause that triggers this suck/avoid dynamic. Other personalities have different suck/avoid cycles.

It's funny though - when I want to opt out of things in life that are hard and uncomfortable for me, I'm told by society to 'grow up already and face reality cos this is how things are'. Feels just a tad hypocritical that we all need to lie to ourselves about being these rational creatures coz people rather not deal with that mess.

Exactly.

The need isn't to be rational, but to properly integrate passion with rationality. Passion without rationality is reckless and often destructive. Rationality without passion is static and directionless. Interestingly, people with brain damage to their emotional centers don't feel emotion, but ALSO find it very difficult to make a decision, in spite of being able to rationally go through all the pros and cons.

Also related: Kahlil Gibran On Reason and Passion

On Reason and Passion

Kahlil Gibran

Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgment wage war against your passion and your appetite.
Would that I could be the peacemaker in your soul, that I might turn the discord and the rivalry of your elements into oneness and melody.
But how shall I, unless you yourselves be also the peacemakers, nay, the lovers of all your elements?

Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul. If either your sails or your rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas.
For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction.
Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion, that it may sing;
And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes.

I would have you consider your judgment and your appetite even as you would two loved guests in your house.
Surely you would not honour one guest above the other; for he who is more mindful of one loses the love and the faith of both.

Among the hills, when you sit in the cool shade of the white poplars, sharing the peace and serenity of distant fields and meadows -- then let your heart say in silence, "God rests in reason."
And when the storm comes, and the mighty wind shakes the forest, and thunder and lightning proclaim the majesty of the sky -- then let your heart say in awe, "God moves in passion."
And since you are a breath in God's sphere, and a leaf in God's forest, you too should rest in reason and move in passion.

It could be sheer bloody minded ness.

Yeah, there's a definite "no more Mr. Nice Guy" vibe to these episodes. Or as per my sig, "beware the fury of a patient man".

 

[ceecee]

Yes, ENFPs can be very enthusiastic about a chosen cause, to the point that they will totally drop their light and fluffy image and become rather mean and nasty about it. It's their worst trait in my opinion: perfectly reasonable people who can become utterly irrational about any point that contradicts their chosen cause.

Yes. Very much so. But here is the kicker, at least with my ENFP's. After sticking to their guns and even getting mean and nasty about it, I'll get this type of question from at least one of them....

Do you think (person they got mean and nasty with) hates me now?
No.
How can you be sure?
Because you've been like this on these topics with them before and they don't ever seem to have a lingering issue with it.
Are you sure?
No, I'm not 100% sure. I'm just saying that, going by past behavior, I don't think so.
Oh god they hate me.
Are you more worried about people hating you or standing up for your beliefs that someone is going to disagree with at some point? Because you can't have both.


What do you do here? I dunno.

 

[Amargith]

I have no problem nor see a problem with that kind of intensity, myself. Granted, it can get in the way of communication, often because the person is trying to convey too much too fast due to the eagerness regarding the topic. And sure, once you overcommit ,it's hard to go back and let go of your position so that is certainly a pitfall.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it's the ENFP that is avoiding integrating passion into rationality. I disagree - in my own experience ,I was more than willing to integrate it, I just didn't always succeed which was exacerbated by the negative and wrongful interpretation of my intensity by the other party. I'll admit that this is less than pleasant for the other party often and of course, it shouldn't go unchecked, and the request for rationality and depth, while re-engaging that Ne instead of getting stuck in Si definitely is a valid one. However, in most cases, that stuff is like demanded right there at mastery level, or the conversation gets backed off of as 'too irrational/emotional/insert other excuse for not wanting to go near intense emotions coz it's something I don't wanna handle even though I'm demanding someone else adjust their communication style and learn.

Meanwhile, on the ENFP's side, that kind of experience does make you then start avoiding by keeping intensity bottled up instead of giving it free reign and learn how to properly integrate with rationality (and for that matter, the expression of rationality once developed, because expressing it is a very different thing than actually having access to it and being aware of it)

Personally, I don't see intensity as something to be tempered by rational thought. Quite on the contrary. For me, it's packed with information I'd rather have access to, on top of rational thought (something that automatically comes with practice). The rational thought comes anyways if you hear them out and actually acknowledge their pov and make them feel heard - they'll calm down and things start to flow, questions provoke their thoughts and they start filling in the gaps in their NeFi communication with Te - which is how it's supposed to work. However, this one-on-one style is just so bloody hard to come by though due to our society, so it's a real treat when I do meet someone and I'm able to make them feel safe enough to actually *rant* and really genuinely speak their mind.

I see people not being able to handle intensity and running scared as something *they* avoid and suck at, tbh. Or they don't value it and want the short cut without what they consider 'the mess'.

But society largely disagrees, it would seem. Highly ironic. So these days I (try and) pretend to be cool, strip my convo's of the extra intel that intensity would provide and do the rational translation thing in stead (which honestly feels a lot like taking NeFi and garble it up by using Te(si) to translate it and make it less scary. It seriously loses something in translation but it's all the target audience can handle or they'll refuse to read/hear the material - the eternal dilemma/frustration of a translator).

Anycase, I'll leave it at that

 

[Poki]

I have no problem nor see a problem with that kind of intensity, myself. Granted, it can get in the way of communication, often because the person is trying to convey too much too fast due to the eagerness regarding the topic. And sure, once you overcommit ,it's hard to go back and let go of your position so that is certainly a pitfall.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it's the ENFP that is avoiding integrating passion into rationality. I disagree - in my own experience ,I was more than willing to integrate it, I just didn't always succeed which was exacerbated by the negative and wrongful interpretation of my intensity by the other party. I'll admit that this is less than pleasant for the other party often and of course, it shouldn't go unchecked, and the request for rationality and depth, while re-engaging that Ne instead of getting stuck in Si definitely is a valid one. However, in most cases, that stuff is like demanded right there at mastery level, or the conversation gets backed off of as 'too irrational/emotional/insert other excuse for not wanting to go near intense emotions coz it's something I don't wanna handle even though I'm demanding someone else adjust their communication style and learn.

Meanwhile, on the ENFP's side, that kind of experience does make you then start avoiding by keeping intensity bottled up instead of giving it free reign and learn how to properly integrate with rationality (and for that matter, the expression of rationality once developed, because expressing it is a very different thing than actually having access to it and being aware of it)

Personally, I don't see intensity as something to be tempered by rational thought. Quite on the contrary. For me, it's packed with information I'd rather have access to, on top of rational thought (something that automatically comes with practice). The rational thought comes anyways if you hear them out and actually acknowledge their pov and make them feel heard - they'll calm down and things start to flow, questions provoke their thoughts and they start filling in the gaps in their NeFi communication with Te - which is how it's supposed to work. However, this one-on-one style is just so bloody hard to come by though due to our society, so it's a real treat when I do meet someone and I'm able to make them feel safe enough to actually *rant* and really genuinely speak their mind.

I see people not being able to handle intensity and running scared as something *they* avoid and suck at, tbh. Or they don't value it and want the short cut without what they consider 'the mess'.

But society largely disagrees, it would seem. Highly ironic. So these days I (try and) pretend to be cool, strip my convo's of the extra intel that intensity would provide and do the rational translation thing in stead (which honestly feels a lot like taking NeFi and garble it up by using Te(si) to translate it and make it less scary. It seriously loses something in translation but it's all the target audience can handle or they'll refuse to read/hear the material - the eternal dilemma/frustration of a translator).

Anycase, I'll leave it at that

As long as you don't expect me to always be intense with you, I don't see it as a big deal. It shows who a person is, what they are like and you either accept them or not.

I know I may question the intensity of my ENFP GF, she has took a small thing and blew it out of proportion and I ground her. I just ground her with reality, if she is still just as intense she has the data and it's her choice. It's mostly when she went crazy left field. Now she just took a test and did good, it's a start to a long road, but it's a good obstacle to overcome and a pretty big big one so complete and utter intensity and passion is not tempered. But if she were to take that and predict the future with it with to great an intensity I will let her know she still has a long road and shouldn't count her chickens before they hatch. But her intensity for the accomplishment is deserved and have at it.

I do see people who will knock intensity because they don't want to "feel" it so they knock you down, and then when they want to they expect you to join in. Annoying as hell.

Same thing can be said for freedom...individuals will allow freedom when they want and try to supress when they dont. Those people are draining on society. Like negative emotional vampires.

 

[Riva]

@nfps

If a powerful alien force conquers Earth and threatens to kill 100 million people every hour till you clean the huge mess in your room how many people would die?

 

[senza tema]

@nfps

If a powerful alien force conquers Earth and threatens to kill 100 million people every hour till you clean the huge mess in your room how many people would die?

None.

With incentive like that, I would actually clean. Though even with maximum efficiency, it would take more than one hour to clean it. Probably more than two.

 

[fetus]

OP is an ENTP now.

 

[Starry]

@nfps

If a powerful alien force conquers Earth and threatens to kill 100 million people every hour till you clean the huge mess in your room how many people would die?

between 600 - 700 million only.


^^I just realized I have no biz answering that. That was a mistake on my part. I merely came here looking for Lady X posts to like (and holy fuck I just realized I can't really like stuff...ooo this is not good because I was doing this as a late birthday gift).

 

[Riva]

between 600 - 700 million only.


^^I just realized I have no biz answering that. That was a mistake on my part. I merely came here looking for Lady X posts to like (and holy fuck I just realized I can't really like stuff...ooo this is not good because I was doing this as a late birthday gift).

Why no bizz?

It's your mbti type.

 

[Starry]

Why no bizz?

It's your mbti type.

It was riva. I have become quite convinced I must not be ENFP. I am far too unappealing/unattractive <-which is apparently a requirement/essential trait.

 

[Riva]

It was riva. I have become quite convinced I must not be ENFP. I am far too unappealing/unattractive <-which is apparently a requirement/essential trait.

You know non of this is true.

Enfps are likeable but way too no-shits-given to be loveable. I dont know whether no-shits-given is the best term.

But you get what I am saying.

Friendly, carefree, non-judgemental etc which is why they are likeable.

 

[Starry]

You know non of this is true.

Enfps are likeable but way too no-shits-given to be loveable. I dont know whether no-shits-given is the best term.

But you get what I am saying.

Friendly, carefree, non-judgemental etc which is why they are likeable.

haha you just made my day riva. you have always been such a good friend to me.

okay...ask me a question...

 

[Sacrophagus]

ENFP women.

Let us entertain the next scenario:
We're married, and you're feeling sick for few days. I put to halt my plans and take care of you.
Amidst this chain of events I receive a call. Our 16 years old daughter tripped and harmed her head. Apparently she took that adorable clumsy demeanor from her mother.
I make sure you don't need anything, and I leave after uttering the words "Darling, I will be back.", and before you start asking them, I say "Shhh. You take care of yourself while I'm away", while I kiss you on your forehead, avoiding the rain of questions a tenderhearted ENFP would ask even when she's bedridden. **sigh**

I then go fetch our daughter, take her to the hospital, do the necessary thorough protocole to make sure she's fine, and take her back home.

When we arrive, I instruct our daughter to wear a sleep cap to hide her bandages, and camouflage the whole thing in her sleeping attire.
I come to see you, take your hand, and ask you "Have you been a good girl while I'm gone?", triggering your ENFP senses. "Yes, my love... hum, is our daughter back?". Naturally, you knew someone else came home from the footsteps, or perhaps, you're hiding cameras at home, I don't know. Damn, now I need to know if you're hiding cameras or not. Anyway.

I call forth our daughter, and you get suspicious. "My daughter....Since when do you sleep in PJs?", you say in a funny voice.

Fuck it.

Our daughter must know about the benefits of sleeping naked, or, she simply does strip tease in front of camera, and if her mom comes in, her being naked is very convenient.
Wait, strip tease involves clothes. She must merely know about the benefits of sleeping naked. I should have more faith in our daughter's moral compass.
Or, or maybe our daughter sleeps in a different kind of attire. Maybe her mom is testing us. Maybe you are testing us. Nonetheless, our daughter remains focused and replies "Daddy bought them for me", I did, "and he wants me to put them on because he likes it that way."
Okay, her reply sounded like I have a kink for this thing, but let's see what you reply "Ahhh, good girl".
We dodged a bullet.

Or did we?

I don't know how the hell you did that stunt, but you just out of nowhere unpredictably jumped on our daughter and took off that cap. You can now see all of her bandages, and comes then the serious question:

How would you react regarding everything that happened and how are you going to perceive the motive behind this series of actions?

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=34448]Sacrophagus[/MENTION]


I will return to what appears to be a very compelling question but just needed to say that I appreciated so very much what you said in that ENTJ-INTJ thread.

It wouldn't have been my place to comment there...and so I tried to make a joke via rep in an effort to convey the same message...immediately realizing how misguided that was. I think I was so moved by what you said I lost track of the fact you don't know me and haven't learned how to read between my lines...


To know that there are gentlemen that appreciate women who come down from their high horse to help comforts me more than I can say.