Are you wary of Fe?

[Domino]

Well, my INTJ best friend is like dropping a cube of ice in my hot coffee. He knows how to chill me out. I know how to break the bad news (I can be horribly blunt, which he seems to appreciate). We "get" each other and can spend a great deal of time around each other without trouble. That's what makes him one of my closest friends.

 

[entropie]

I am wary of Fe yes. See above

 

[Domino]

I am wary of Fe yes. See above

*pins you down and bites you hard*

 

[proteanmix]

Rant time.

I'm in. In my experience there's a certain "knowing" that occurs between Fe users. A knowingness to look out for others and it shows in their behavior without them having to state it to each other. That is one of the best parts, not having to state it. It's just a force that hovers over. I feel it and it makes me trust Fe users more. They usually never let me down. When I see Fi in action, my immediate reaction is usually and . It's the function I have the hardest time understanding when I see it in action, and that feeling is what makes me understand why a lot of Fi users are wary of Fe. They must feel the same exact thing and that can make a person uneasy.

Totally agree with this. I don't think Fi users realize how much silent (oh, because you don't say it out loud you think people don't feel it?) they throw out. And I really choose not to discuss things like this on the forum because even though my chances of getting this from any FP I come into contact with is hovering around the 50/50 range I still fight attributing this to their type. I simply do not feel comfortable slandering FPs in this manner the same way FPs feel comfortable slandering FJs.

I have three INFPs and one ENFP I work with and come into contact one of the INFPs is my boss. And I won't even give the benefit of the doubt of her being an unhealthy INFP because I don't think she is. I think she's ye average INFP who's already chosen what she's passionate about and what her focus is (in her early 60s). Her work ethic in unparalleled and her dedication is unquestioned. I personally think she's exploited as the department mule. But damn if she's not the most difficult person to work with, even through her own admission. IT writes skulls and crossbones next to her whenever we have a joint meeting with them. They stonewall every work effort she asks them to do and they only communicate through me (which she resents). She's even said to me I'm surprised you've managed to work with me this long. She has very set ideas of how she wants work to proceed, where she wants priority and focus, what outcome she wants. This woman will surreptitiously break people down just to build them back up. In one of my meetings with her we were talking about a particularly difficult grant we were working on and she says, "I just can't do it anymore, my soul is broken." I laughed, thinking she was being sarcastic. Then her eyes widened at me and I was oh, she's serious. She makes these emotionally manipulative volleys about her inner states all the time. I ignore it mostly.

The other two INFPs: One is a total space cadet. She must be like Halley's Comet, only orbiting the earth every 76 years. I've literally taken to talking about magical dragons coming out of the Potomac river when she comes around and she loves it! BTW, she's my age. She is incapable of having a serious conversation that has any meaning to the participants. Everything must be back-filtered through her. "Well I wouldn't want this..." or "I felt this..." Baby, we're not talking about you. Can you relate to anything without injecting your own subjective experience into it? She makes people uncomfortable talking to her because she personalizes everything and her manner prevents people from really talking about things around her. Once her, myself and two other coworkers were talking about whether or not they liked where tattoos are placed on the body, particularly the tramp stamp. She goes in a small baby voice "Well I have a tramp stamp." Another coworker says, "well just because I don't like the tramp stamp, doesn't mean I think you're a tramp. It's just what they're called." And then she says in that fricking annoying baby voice again "Oh." I'm convinced she does that baby voice to manipulate people from making certain comments she doesn't like. This is the same coworker who when I said my mother had breast cancer she instantly remarked about a pile of folders on the desk, "Those look like a stack of rainbows!" Don't go there about her being immature because I don't think so.

The last INFP woman I actually like. I remember I was having a conversation with her when we initially started hanging out, she was talking and I was looking at her. Suddenly she stopped mid-sentence and asked me what I was looking at. I'm totally puzzled and I said I'm looking at her speak. She then says "You're staring at my glasses! I broke my other set and had to wear these. I hate these they make my face look so round and fat!" I'm astonished, I wasn't looking at her glasses, I'm just listening to her. Another time I knew she had been dieting and the results were paying off. I, thinking I'm being encouraging to her and her weight loss efforts say, "I'm really glad you sticking to getting healthy, I would've fallen off the wagon by now!" She tightly said you're just saying that and then I got so mad at her I said, "You're right" and walked out. She later sent me an email apologizing for being so abrupt.

I'm really tired of Fis consistently misinterpreting the intentions of FJs. It's like you can't even say anything to Fi users without them thinking you're lying to them or trying to convince them of the sincerity of your remarks.

But it's funny, I also notice with her if you don't say anything to her about her, she'll ask "Do you notice anything different about me?" She'll ask if her roots are showing or pantylines. I feel like she's projecting judgments about herself onto other people, thinking they're condemning her but she's condemning herself. I've noticed this weird self-consciousness with her: Look at me!/Don't look at me! Hello, catch 22. Just this Friday, I was leaving the bathroom when she was coming in and I opened my mouth to say hello and she puts her hand up and says "Look don't say anything about my haircut. The hairdresser cut it wrong." I hadn't even noticed her hair was cut and I said that to her. And don't go throwing around well she's an unhealthy INFP or immature INFP because I don't think she is. I think she's just showing her typical INFPness.

Actually that was my final straw with her and I'm thinking about how to cut the strings without her noticing. My conversation around her will become increasingly vacuous and superficial; I'll say trite remarks, make banal jokes, and laugh politely. I feel like I was more tolerant of this behavior because I knew she was an INFP, we both knew about MBTI (although I'm definitely more into it than her), I was like OK this is just Fe/Fi differences. I did like how we had this instant connection, I felt comfortable around her quickly. But it's like this stuff never ceases with her, every week it will be some new thing I decided to overlook. But it was balanced out by how well we vibed with each other so I shrugged it off.

Does this behavior necessarily register on other people? Who knows? It's not on exhibit for all to see, it's only once you get close to these people that you begin to see this. Yeah, I'm a loud Fe-dom you can see me coming. But Fi users, don't act like your neuroses aren't spilling out. Like I said, it may not be as prominent but it's still there.

And this pattern in most of the Fi-doms I know (I have more experience with INFPs than any other FP, ExFPs don't quite act like this) I feel like I'm pretty good at feeling them out, figuring out where their soft spots are but I feel like very little of that is reciprocated back at me. I have felt that I have been the one to flex around them. Yeah, they're more "laid back" and easy-going than me. I'm more likely to say this is what I want than they are. They don't care what movie we see or what restaurant we go to or what we talk about or do. But there's this stiffness about them that I contort myself around and not the other way around. No it's not immediately noticeable, yes they're more quiet about it but it pushes outward just the same. It's this "prove yourself" thing, show me your worthiness! This isn't to say I don't get along with Fi-users because I mostly do, or at least I feel I do, God knows what drudgery the Fi-users I know think I'm inflicting upon them.

 

[heart]

Totally aside from the Fe-Fi debate: I hate when grown women cultivate a baby voice and use it in professional settings. Use it in the bedroom if your lover likes that sort of thing, but I don't want to have to deal with it.

 

[entropie]

Haha, I am not wary of Fi in no way, evah !

 

[heart]

This woman will surreptitiously break people down just to build them back up. In one of my meetings with her we were talking about a particularly difficult grant we were working on and she says, "I just can't do it anymore, my soul is broken." I laughed, thinking she was being sarcastic. Then her eyes widened at me and I was oh, she's serious. She makes these emotionally manipulative volleys about her inner states all the time. I ignore it mostly.

I am curious why you believe this was manipulative. When I read it, I hear that she's super stressed out and in that moment she didn't see how she'd go on and felt it strong enough to express it. I assume she bottomed out and came back later with renewed energy to face the challenges.

But Fi users, don't act like your neuroses aren't spilling out. Like I said, it may not be as prominent but it's still there.

Well, I think most with strong J parents will know this. This was the worst sin that my mother held against me. I can simply walk into a room and meet a strong J type for the first time and they will take affront to me and start talking down, using brisk tones or accusing me of having a 'tude or whatever when I am just going about my own business, trying to get through my day. But it's Te's that seem to do it the most, or at least people who seem very Te.

 

[proteanmix]

I am curious why you believe this was manipulative. When I read it, I hear that she's super stressed out and in that moment she didn't see how she'd go on and felt it strong enough to express it. I assume she bottomed out and came back later with renewed energy to face the challenges.

Perhaps in the same way I'd assume someone giving me a card on my birthday isn't creating some kind of guilt trip or forcing empty social ritual upon me.

I believe she does this because she's not comfortable being in a leadership position, doesn't like to delegate work, but also realizes she can't do the work by herself, but is uncomfortable outright telling someone what to do. She is not a very direct person at all, but hints and insinuates at things she wants done. For the most part, I catch on to her insinuations but she often uses these same tactics when she's upset or in a foul mood.

So she'll say things like "I'm doing the work of 7 people," and depending on how I feel like responding I'll be silent and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do or say "OK, I'll do XYZ." Or she'll give me a project to do, tell me to do it how I want to do it, and if one piece of the project entails emailing a specific agency with a certain request I'll go to her and ask her is there anything she'd like me to emphasis in the communication. She'll say no no do it the way you like, I send the email, and then she'll send me back a critique of everything I should've said that I didn't. This has happened so many times I can't even count them.

Would you say this is Fi behaving badly? Is this behavior that supersedes function and type? Because we certainly don't get very much of this on the forum, it's only Fe who gets pinned with this scarlet letter.

Well, I think most with strong J parents will know this. This was the worst sin that my mother held against me. I can simply walk into a room and meet a strong J type for the first time and they will take affront to me and start talking down, using brisk tones or accusing me of having a 'tude or whatever when I am just going about my own business, trying to get through my day. But it's Te's that seem to do it the most, or at least people who seem very Te.

heart, please don't get offended by this, but I think you're doing exactly what the second INFP I mentioned does. She reroutes impersonal statements to something about herself and construes it as personal when it was never meant as such. There is the feeling of needing to be very careful in how you word things, how you say things, to explain that it was not directed at you specifically. FJs are sensitive to such nuances and respond accordingly. And perhaps, once again, you may be doing the same thing the third INFP did--thinking someone is condemning something about them when there has been no such thought going through the person's mind.

Maybe this is what FPs pick up on, the delicateness, and they view this as insincere, false, and pandering. Maybe both sides are not clearly seeing the cause and effect of innocent behavior. I'm not sure.

 

[Orangey]

I am naturally bad at Fe, but I can see the value in it. In fact, I am often thankful for the Fe users in my life (quite a few now), because they take the time and initiative to make me feel comfortable. And I also like that their feeling is a bit less personal than Fi users. Meaning, when I blunder socially, they coach me about what I'm supposed to say or do, then I say it and all is forgiven. And I don't feel embarrassingly singled out when they focus attention on me because they do it for everyone. I kind of hate feeling like I'm "special" to someone...it gives me the creeps. Fe is just going through the motions, which is easier to deal with than the more personal type of feeling.

For example, on one occasion my friend called to ask if I wanted to go bowling. I thought about it, then decided that I didn't really want to go out. I told her, "nah." Then she proceeded to laugh and tell me that the socially appropriate way of saying no would be to give a suitable reason (even if I had to make one up). I said "okay, I don't want to go because I'm in the middle of some important reading, but maybe we could go sometime this weekend." She was satisfied, and both of us left the exchange feeling fine.

I imagine that an Fi user (if this were something important to them, enough to hurt their feelings) might have their feelings hurt and never tell me about it, and then start acting weird the next time we encountered one another. I can't deal with that because it's neither straightforward nor transparent. It's harder to predict, and therefore harder to assuage. Of course that's not to say that all Fi users would have had their feelings hurt in this or similar situations (gah, this should be obvious, but I guess I still need to put it in the fine print).

Also, I find that exchanging gifts and that sort of thing is easier with Fe users because it's less personal. When I give them gifts, they are more easily able to find meaning in the mere act of giving, whereas the few Fi users I've encountered have placed more emphasis on the meaning behind my choice of gift. And TBH, even though I kind of admire the idea of personalizing all of my gifts to the individuals that are close to me, doing so would exhaust me beyond belief. Even if I undertook such a project, I'd probably talk myself out of doing it because it's difficult and embarrassingly sentimental. And I'd probably get it wrong (i.e., I'd not really know what to give them because I don't hold on to emotional keepsakes). With Fe users, I don't have to worry as much. They'd be pleased even if they knew that I'd got everyone the same thing. And they are, in my experience, much more prone to being pleased with practical gifts than dominant Fi users (well, maybe only INFP).

 

[lamp]

Do Fi users need to show up to the pillaging uh, 'competetion'? Perhaps bearing vials of our own blood to be awarded later?


I did not realize how 'hot' Fe discussion is here. I experienced some very positive Fe usage in a discussion last night, too. In conversation, I like to avoid situations where a new topic or development comes up and makes some people uncomfortable, or is deemed inappropriate. My worry is, that a Fe-user may unintentionally encourage someone to volunteer something that is not quite appropriate for the current conversation, as if the Fe-user is surprised by the result of their Fe. Thoughts? This is along the lines of that I said earlier:

I think this is my 'fear' of Fe: actually being more comfortable in a situation than I consciously think I am, and in turn surprising myself when I volunteer something personal. Hopefully I do not think afterwards, "that was premature to say".

How can it be transparent when it is an introverted function? Fi is an internal value system, based within the individual. Unless the individual shares what these values are, it is anything but transparent.

Not so transparent, but I feel like if you asked, I would attempt to describe to you my reasonings. Fi served on a base of Ne.

Totally agree with this. I don't think Fi users realize how much silent they throw out..

I have been coming to realize this some just over the past two weeks. A user posted that his dog died, I know how moving this can be but a lot of the things in my head were weird Fi things. I had trouble generating a response that felt appropriate. And often, if I cannot come up with something then I end up saying nothing and hope that my attention is at least noted.

I'm really tired of Fis consistently misinterpreting the intentions of FJs. It's like you can't even say anything to Fi users without them thinking you're lying to them or trying to convince them of the sincerity of your remarks.

Maybe Fe-use makes mind-reading more difficult?

That actually seems to be what Fe and Fi users encourage each other to do: to fail. To not perform according to the standard set out by the other side.

I cannot quite grasp this (yet?!) but it is very interesting.

 

[sculpting]

Totally agree with this. I don't think Fi users realize how much silent (oh, because you don't say it out loud you think people don't feel it?) they throw out. And I really choose not to discuss things like this on the forum because even though my chances of getting this from any FP I come into contact with is hovering around the 50/50 range I still fight attributing this to their type. I simply do not feel comfortable slandering FPs in this manner the same way FPs feel comfortable slandering FJs. .

Dont think of it as slandering. Honesty all around helps others grow. I think there is something very real to Fi-Fe miscommunication across the board from the dom to the tert level so thank you for taking the time to explore openly. Please continue to do so as I really need help on this one.

In one of my meetings with her we were talking about a particularly difficult grant we were working on and she says, "I just can't do it anymore, my soul is broken." I laughed, thinking she was being sarcastic. Then her eyes widened at me and I was oh, she's serious. She makes these emotionally manipulative volleys about her inner states all the time. I ignore it mostly..

Yes. I sometimes do this. Reading the above makes me feel terrible. But the question is why. Why does Fi do this when Fe doesn't. I doubt this is intentional planned manipulation. When pushed too far I will do this. Not with manipulation in mind. It really is cry for help? Fi finally boils to the surface and just rolls over? Fi seems to tumble and roll in waves for me and sometimes the waves splash up into the boat and get everyone else wet.

I have said before that Fi feels like a mirror to me. I mirror what the other person feels. If I feel thier pain I am obliged to help them to make my pain go away. So if I project emo signals of pain and the other party doesn't seem to be mirroring back-perhaps it signals to my brain I need to project more loudly-actually vocalize my discomfort? When in reality Fe may be perceiving discomfort, and trying to help, but the signals the Fe user projects back to me aren't "Fi correct", dont resolve my pain, so I don't perceive them properly? Thus endless cycles of guilt spring up between the two parties, with neiether feeling like thier signal has been properly responded to.

This same miscommunication with an entp and tert Fe left me kind of heartbroken for awhile as I misunderstood the intent.

The other two INFPs: One is a total space cadet. She must be like Halley's Comet, only orbiting the earth every 76 years. I've literally taken to talking about magical dragons coming out of the Potomac river when she comes around and she loves it! BTW, she's my age. She is incapable of having a serious conversation that has any meaning to the participants. Everything must be back-filtered through her. "Well I wouldn't want this..." or "I felt this..." Baby, we're not talking about you. Can you relate to anything without injecting your own subjective experience into it? She makes people uncomfortable talking to her because she personalizes everything and her manner prevents people from really talking about things around her. Once her, myself and two other coworkers were talking about whether or not they liked where tattoos are placed on the body, particularly the tramp stamp. She goes in a small baby voice "Well I have a tramp stamp." Another coworker says, "well just because I don't like the tramp stamp, doesn't mean I think you're a tramp. It's just what they're called." And then she says in that fricking annoying baby voice again "Oh." I'm convinced she does that baby voice to manipulate people from making certain comments she doesn't like. This is the same coworker who when I said my mother had breast cancer she instantly remarked about a pile of folders on the desk, "Those look like a stack of rainbows!" Don't go there about her being immature because I don't think so.
..

Yup. I asked my engineers to build the next instrument out of lemon jello. I created a whole group called the League of Binding Materials and gave them all secret code names involving things like velcro and staples and such. I send them emails telling them the unicorns will be coming to kiss them soon. I call my sales team "my beloved little trolls". By all rights this is crazy and immature.

Yet I get crazy amounts of shit done and everybody will bend over backwards to help me push things through our systems. They all seem to, well, love me? However there are very few Fe doms around-almost all INTPs, ENTPs, INTJs, ISTJs, with a smatterring of other types sprinkled in.

Also notice I have brought the entire conversation back to me and my subjective view. I know I do this and when I try not to, the "tap" goes dry. It becomes hard to find words to say. I dont understand why... I am trying to imrpove on this. I cold just be selfish. Perhaps Ne plays a role.

I also incorrectly perceive that Fe doms are making judgements about me when they make broad sweeping statements. It "feels" like you are judging society at large when you make a statement, thus I can't help but feel like I have failed a societal test of some sort.

I'm really tired of Fis consistently misinterpreting the intentions of FJs. It's like you can't even say anything to Fi users without them thinking you're lying to them or trying to convince them of the sincerity of your remarks.

Actually that was my final straw with her and I'm thinking about how to cut the strings without her noticing. My conversation around her will become increasingly vacuous and superficial; I'll say trite remarks, make banal jokes, and laugh politely. ..

My relationship got to this point with the only enfj I spent a lot of time around. I really felt like she initially was constantly insulting me and then finaly we would just not interact except on a very superficial layer. We avoided each other-well until a guy gave her herpes and then I held her while she cried her eyes out.

I REALLY think there is a true communication issue here. It goes past Fi/Fe trying to manipulate each other. It is very unintentional on both sides. It is about verbal and nonverbal signals being sent and received. It is also about expectations and deliverables that each excepts when the emit/receive those signals. The coding is incorrect and we are not properly perceieving the intent of the sender it seems. Then we respond inaccurately.

 

[Thalassa]

I believe she does this because she's not comfortable being in a leadership position, doesn't like to delegate work, but also realizes she can't do the work by herself, but is uncomfortable outright telling someone what to do. She is not a very direct person at all, but hints and insinuates at things she wants done. For the most part, I catch on to her insinuations but she often uses these same tactics when she's upset or in a foul mood.

So she'll say things like "I'm doing the work of 7 people," and depending on how I feel like responding I'll be silent and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do or say "OK, I'll do XYZ." Or she'll give me a project to do, tell me to do it how I want to do it, and if one piece of the project entails emailing a specific agency with a certain request I'll go to her and ask her is there anything she'd like me to emphasis in the communication. She'll say no no do it the way you like, I send the email, and then she'll send me back a critique of everything I should've said that I didn't. This has happened so many times I can't even count them.

Would you say this is Fi behaving badly? Is this behavior that supersedes function and type? Because we certainly don't get very much of this on the forum, it's only Fe who gets pinned with this scarlet letter.

I think that this kind of behavior can transcend type. I don't know why you even assume that it's specifically INFP behavior.

heart, please don't get offended by this, but I think you're doing exactly what the second INFP I mentioned does. She reroutes impersonal statements to something about herself and construes it as personal when it was never meant as such. There is the feeling of needing to be very careful in how you word things, how you say things, to explain that it was not directed at you specifically. FJs are sensitive to such nuances and respond accordingly. And perhaps, once again, you may be doing the same thing the third INFP did--thinking someone is condemning something about them when there has been no such thought going through the person's mind.

Maybe this is what FPs pick up on, the delicateness, and they view this as insincere, false, and pandering. Maybe both sides are not clearly seeing the cause and effect of innocent behavior. I'm not sure.

ROFL! And you're displaying typical J behavior by talking down to her because she's making something personal. INFPs do that. They take broad concepts and relate it to their personal experience.

This thread is so ridiculous.

 

[proteanmix]

If it's ridiculous then you can see your way out.

 

[Lightyear]

This thread is so ridiculous.

Ummm... that is not very helpful.

I actually enjoyed reading this thread.

 

[Thalassa]

If it's ridiculous then you can see your way out.

The last INFP woman I actually like. I remember I was having a conversation with her when we initially started hanging out, she was talking and I was looking at her. Suddenly she stopped mid-sentence and asked me what I was looking at. I'm totally puzzled and I said I'm looking at her speak. She then says "You're staring at my glasses! I broke my other set and had to wear these. I hate these they make my face look so round and fat!" I'm astonished, I wasn't looking at her glasses, I'm just listening to her. Another time I knew she had been dieting and the results were paying off. I, thinking I'm being encouraging to her and her weight loss efforts say, "I'm really glad you sticking to getting healthy, I would've fallen off the wagon by now!" She tightly said you're just saying that and then I got so mad at her I said, "You're right" and walked out. She later sent me an email apologizing for being so abrupt.

I'm really tired of Fis consistently misinterpreting the intentions of FJs. It's like you can't even say anything to Fi users without them thinking you're lying to them or trying to convince them of the sincerity of your remarks.

But it's funny, I also notice with her if you don't say anything to her about her, she'll ask "Do you notice anything different about me?" She'll ask if her roots are showing or pantylines. I feel like she's projecting judgments about herself onto other people, thinking they're condemning her but she's condemning herself. I've noticed this weird self-consciousness with her: Look at me!/Don't look at me! Hello, catch 22. Just this Friday, I was leaving the bathroom when she was coming in and I opened my mouth to say hello and she puts her hand up and says "Look don't say anything about my haircut. The hairdresser cut it wrong." I hadn't even noticed her hair was cut and I said that to her. And don't go throwing around well she's an unhealthy INFP or immature INFP because I don't think she is. I think she's just showing her typical INFPness.

Actually, this person sounds deeply insecure. I don't think this is "typical INFPness" and I don't think it's very healthy Fe of you to be criticizing her for it. I feel sorry for her. That's SAD.

That's part of why I think this thread is ridiculous. It largely seems like back and forth bashing.

 

[Thalassa]

You think btw your new avatar has given you the admission to sound wise all out of a sudden ?

Is that a joke?

Seriously, though. Plenty of people are insecure like that, especially girls and women who have been abused, or have serious problems with things like eating disorders, body image, etc. I've known quite a few people who are that pathologically insecure that are NOT INFPs. And all INFPs don't act like that, either.

It's just funny to me because Fe is supposed to care about damaged people, people who are broken emotionally and physically, and this person keeps boasting about Fe whilst bashing people who probably could use a little more love in their lives.

We all stereotype and generalize on this site, but at least be aware that you're doing it.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

Actually, Fi shows up in my bullshit detectors... funny!

I imagine there are constructive applications, but in the abstract (and from experience) it strikes me as an awfully solipsistic way to process things: "To hell with reason, to hell with practicality, to hell with you; all that matters is what I happen to be feeling, right now. Now respect that."

Evidently I've not had a very rounded time with this function. Don't mean to imply that I have! It's just that the above mindset is very difficult for me to deal with.

 

[Orangey]

Some posts moved here.

 

[entropie]

Some posts moved here.

Why ? I tried to enlighten her Fe !

 

[lamp]

I was in BevMo tonight (a big, wonderful booze store) and the cashier asked me about the beer I was buying. Well I am sampling it for the first time, so I volunteered to tell her about it next time I was in. She replied that yes, I would have to tell her all about it. She also addressed me by my first name, asked me if she had possibly seen me in the store before, etc. So I wonder what motivates her: does she really want to know some nuances about the beer? Was she bored and making small talk? Did she want to date an ENFP?

Because of Fi I guess, I take my quest to inform her seriously; I will probably ask another employee if she is working, next time I am there. And when I find her, I think she may be a bit off-put if she was not really interested in the beer.