Any songwriters?

[run]

I think I'm far on the right-brained end of the spectrum. I'm at the point where I can write a song in 5 minutes, but I still can't write lyrics for the life of me.

What are your methods for writing lyrics? I have a lot of ideas--I just can't get them in poetic form. (I think being a Thinker gets in the way)

 

[ragashree]

When you say you can write a song in five minutes but can't write lyrics... which non-lyrical aspect are you mainly referring to?

 

[scantilyclad]

my lyrics are very emotional and i usually write them at a very emotional moment and the words just pour out. I can't just sit down and say, hey i'm gonna write some lyrics, i have to be angry, or depressed or extremely happy. so maybe you should wait until you are one of those.

 

[run]

When you say you can write a song in five minutes but can't write lyrics... which non-lyrical aspect are you mainly referring to?

I write really complicated songs. For example, the last one i wrote went

Cmaj9 Emaj7 Eb6/9 F#maj7

 

[simulatedworld]

Smoke a blunt by yourself.

Sit down at your computer and force yourself to write down whatever comes out.

Go take a nap.

Come back sober and build on the initial idea.

I write really complicated songs. For example, the last one i wrote went

Cmaj9 Emaj7 Eb6/9 F#maj7

lol my INTJ little brother just wrote his first real song on piano, I believe it goes:

Bbm7 Gdim Gb Bb


I love the things you can do with manipulating chords and melodies...in a recent song I used:

A Dsus2 A F Ebm7 D7 A

and in another:

A C#7 Dmaj7 A, later I actually managed to work a Dmmaj7 in, which is weird because minor thirds rarely get along with tonic 7ths.

Here are some other pretty popular songs with progressions I enjoy--outstanding NT bonus points to anyone who can recognize them, as they are pretty distinctive:

1) E Fmaj7b5 G6 Fmaj7b5 E

2) F Caug Fm7 Fm6

3) A Am7 G6 Fmaj7 (neat chromatic walkdown the way it's voiced in this song)

4) Em Em9 Cmaj7 A7

5) Ebmaj7 Ebmaj7 Ebmaj7 Ebmaj7 (four different inversions, heheh...love this one, the chords are stacked as two sets of fourths followed by two sets of fifths moving further apart from each other each time. It's haunting with the 7th in there too.)


Any takers for something this obscure?


p.s.,

try switching between Emaj7 and Aadd9, then after a few reps going to Amadd9. I found recently that this sounds really neat; the minor with added 9th sounds really unique and it gives that super cool harmonic minor feel when it resolves back into E.

p.p.s,

god i am a nerd.

 

[run]

Smoke a blunt by yourself.

1) E Fmaj7b5 G6 Fmaj7b5 E

2) F Caug Fm7 Fm6

3) A Am7 G6 Fmaj7 (neat chromatic walkdown the way it's voiced in this song)

4) Em Em9 Cmaj7 A7

These are cool chord progressions. I've never heard of them.

 

[simulatedworld]

I bet you've heard all of them, with the possible exception of #2, if you were born in the last 30 years.

btw, let me know if you want guitar fingerings for the voicings used in those.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Try focusing on the rhythm of the words. Think of words musically. It doesn't have to be "poetic".

 

[PeaceBaby]

This is a fascinating thread ... I always think of a song from the lyrics out, not from the chords / melody in.

You both (run, simulated world) remind me of musicians I have worked with who are very "T" about the musical structure (for lack of a better descriptor). They could go on and on about deconstructing music at band practice ... when we're supposed to be rehearsing!

I would suggest listening to songs you like and actually reading the lyrics like a poem. For example, the song on the radio here at home right now is "Second Chance" by Shinedown. It's a good one to reflect on:

Tell my mother,
tell my father
I've done the best I can
To make them realize
This is my life
I hope they understand
I'm not angry,
I'm just saying
Sometimes goodbye
is a second chance

Read it to yourself like a poem, open yourself to the feelings behind it. Then imagine yourself saying this with as much emotional support behind it as you can muster. Say it out loud even, or yell it, or cry it! This might help you find your own voice to start writing some verses and then set them to melody.

Tapping that inner place will yield the words. Don't be scared to go there ...

 

[ragashree]

Try focusing on the rhythm of the words. Think of words musically. It doesn't have to be "poetic".

Personally I'd agree with this. I may be influenced in this by being a drummer, but I simply can't imagine being able to write a song without focussing on the rythym above all else. Whether it has words or not doesn't always matter - I think more often than anything else I've had a kernel of a few words and an idea of what I wanted to say from which the rest has grown; but sometimes I've just heard the rhythmic "music" and had to search to find suitable words to fit to it.

Just a suggestion - maybe it would help to play the song through a few times, thinking not so much about the tonal quality, but focusing on the timing and the rhythmic "feel" of the piece *I've noticed a lot of otherwise skilled musicians struggle with timing because they focus on other matters, so this aspect is too often neglected by non-percussionists*. If you can get a strong enough feel of the beat inside yourself to fit to the chords, you can at least be sure that any words you then come up with will fit without having to be too forced. As to what those words will be, you'll just have to rely on your creativity; having something you want to say probably helps though!

I would personally probably think of something and run through it a few times before writing it down, but if you're a more visual person it might help to write it straight away. I think it's going to be harder thinking mainly of the chords because it's unfocussed and you have no underlying structure to work with. Hope this makes some kind of sense, it's close to what works for me anyway

Edit: If you're interested it might help to think of metre and scansion in poetry, and how they relate to time signature and beat in music. Most songwriters these days may not be consciously following formal rules of versification, but they're most likely using them unconsciously.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I get the main idea for the music going, choose what I want to sing about, and then alternate between playing the music and writing the lyrics down. I always thought lyrics were easy - but I don't know if they would be considered good or not. Care for a sample?

 

[Oberon]

You can do what I do and steal lyrics.

For example:

This Little Piggy
by Oberon

This little piggy went to market,
This little piggy stayed home
This little piggy had roast beef
And this little piggy had none

Chorus:

And doncha know, this little piggy
Went wee wee all the way home.
(doncha know)
This little piggy (this little piggy)
He went wee wee all the way home.

This little piggy went to bacon
This little piggy went to ham
This little piggy went to whole-hog sausage
And this little piggy's on the lam

And doncha know, this little piggy
Went wee wee all the way home.
(Can you blame him?)
This little piggy (this little piggy)
He went wee wee all the way home.

[instrumental solo]

[repeat chorus]

For a really fun song, try looking for lyrics just anywhere. Read the ingredients list on your breakfast cereal and set that to music.

 

[simulatedworld]

This is a fascinating thread ... I always think of a song from the lyrics out, not from the chords / melody in.

You both (run, simulated world) remind me of musicians I have worked with who are very "T" about the musical structure (for lack of a better descriptor). They could go on and on about deconstructing music at band practice ... when we're supposed to be rehearsing!

I would suggest listening to songs you like and actually reading the lyrics like a poem. For example, the song on the radio here at home right now is "Second Chance" by Shinedown. It's a good one to reflect on:

Tell my mother,
tell my father
I've done the best I can
To make them realize
This is my life
I hope they understand
I'm not angry,
I'm just saying
Sometimes goodbye
is a second chance

Read it to yourself like a poem, open yourself to the feelings behind it. Then imagine yourself saying this with as much emotional support behind it as you can muster. Say it out loud even, or yell it, or cry it! This might help you find your own voice to start writing some verses and then set them to melody.

Tapping that inner place will yield the words. Don't be scared to go there ...

I dunno, most of the so-called "great lyricists" are not writing in such obviously literal terms.

If you make something vague/abstract enough that anyone who enjoys the melody can make it mean anything he wants to him (and he will), then you've done your job.

A lot of times just stream of consciousness weird metaphors and such will come out with a fairly clear meaning that you didn't even realize.

INFJ songwriter I know says: "It's always about something, whether or not you realize it."

This is a stylistic choice, but personally I tend to avoid lyrics with concretely obvious meanings about specific events...they just get outdated too quickly.

Also, lyrics and poetry are very, very different. I agree it's sometimes a good idea to work on the lyrics independently of the music, but the form and structure of poetry is much more metered and specific than lyrics. Lyrics can kinda do whatever you want; the "poetry community" is quite a bit more discerning.

 

[run]

I disagree that poetry is about the meter. Look at John mayer, and dave matthews songs like #41.

 

[simulatedworld]

I disagree that poetry is about the meter. Look at John mayer, and dave matthews songs like #41.

Those are lyrics. They're not poetry.

Poetry isn't always about meter; there is free verse, but everything about the structure and intent is completely different. A lot of lyricists think they're poets, but they're not. I'm certainly not, and I write a lot of songs.

 

[murkrow]

Those are lyrics. They're not poetry.

Poetry isn't always about meter; there is free verse, but everything about the structure and intent is completely different. A lot of lyricists think they're poets, but they're not. I'm certainly not, and I write a lot of songs.

Yeah this has been the jarring revelation of my last two years.

 

[BlueScreen]

I think I'm far on the right-brained end of the spectrum. I'm at the point where I can write a song in 5 minutes, but I still can't write lyrics for the life of me.

What are your methods for writing lyrics? I have a lot of ideas--I just can't get them in poetic form. (I think being a Thinker gets in the way)

Develop Ne, Te and Fi .

Apart from that, I'd say learn to look at words in terms of short term connection. I've found a big problem people have is they want to write a load of crap and put a rhyme at the end of it. Word to word is where it matters.

Your tools are rhymes, what I call half rhymes, counter rhymes, alliteration, mid-word rhymes. Really it is all rhymes of some sort. Think in terms of syllables and beats rather than words. Know your song structure, know what syllable sounds go okay with each note/chord (you can read up on it, or get an intuitive feel from trial and error), know how different sounds mix with eachother. Think about how the last line ended and started when you start a new line. Link the sounds to make or break continuity. Really just get all the parameters and visualise the system as a whole. I've never been able to do it carefully rather than intuitively, but with a good understanding and Ti you might be able to.

p.s. in terms of meter, if you've written the music, that is the base of the meter or beat. Why write poetry in some meter that doesn't fit with it?

 

[run]

Those are lyrics. They're not poetry.

Thats what I meant.

 

[simulatedworld]

Thats what I meant.

Fair enough. My favorites are the ones who claim to be "songwriters" because they wrote a page of lyrics on notepad. Sorry, that makes you a lyricist at best--if you don't have any concept of writing a distinct melody for your words and putting them against chord changes for emotional effect, you're not a songwriter, no matter how many words you type up in notepad and wish you had music for.

By the way, the songs were:

1) Malaguena (traditional Spanish folk, look it up cause I'm sure you've heard it)
2) Beatles - Fixing a Hole
3) Red Hot Chili Peppers - Under the Bridge (outro)
4) Incubus - Drive
5) Radiohead - Idioteque

 

[ragashree]

Develop Ne, Te and Fi .

Apart from that, I'd say learn to look at words in terms of short term connection. I've found a big problem people have is they want to write a load of crap and put a rhyme at the end of it. Word to word is where it matters.

Yay

Your tools are rhymes, what I call half rhymes, counter rhymes, alliteration, mid-word rhymes. Really it is all rhymes of some sort. Think in terms of syllables and beats rather than words. Know your song structure, know what syllable sounds go okay with each note/chord (you can read up on it, or get an intuitive feel from trial and error), know how different sounds mix with eachother. Think about how the last line ended and started when you start a new line. Link the sounds to make or break continuity. Really just get all the parameters and visualise the system as a whole. I've never been able to do it carefully rather than intuitively, but with a good understanding and Ti you might be able to.

This makes sense to me, though I would say there's not an absolute need for rhyme if all the other structural aspects are solid - there are plenty of succesful artists and songs which make little use of it. Are you coming, though, from a perspective of doing lyrics first then setting them, or *as I tend to do* thinking of lyrics and melody together? It seems a quite different perspective from thinking mainly in terms of already having the melody well developed and then wanting to find lyrics that fit. I suspect the former approaches are more natural for poets *or would-be poets* who are also musicians.

p.s. in terms of meter, if you've written the music, that is the base of the meter or beat. Why write poetry in some meter that doesn't fit with it?

Exactly Well, alright, you CAN write in a different metre, but I don't know why anyone would want to who hadn't got a basic grasp of how to write words that fit to begin with. It's like trying to run before you can even crawl.

My favorites are the ones who claim to be "songwriters" because they wrote a page of lyrics on notepad. Sorry, that makes you a lyricist at best--if you don't have any concept of writing a distinct melody for your words and putting them against chord changes for emotional effect, you're not a songwriter, no matter how many words you type up in notepad and wish you had music for.

Haha, sadly a lot of people who do this think they're writing pretty damned good poetry as well