[ENFJ] Advice regarding ENFJs from ENFJs

[Fidelia]

Thank you ladies for your responses! I realize I have not expressed this in actual words to my mum when she gets this way, although she is fully aware of when she is doing stuff that bugs me, but it seems like she feels truly justified in it even when I've told her it bothers me. I notice that she only gets that way when she is under a lot of emotional stress and has no way of improving things. At first I thought it was an expression of how incompetent/irresponsible she seemed to think I was and I felt really badly, but after more than one cycle of it, I realized that it was more about her than me. I just wish I knew how to help her better.

She carries incredible tension in her body when she is under stress like that too. I've offered to give her a footrub etc, which I know she really likes and needs, but she will often tell me I need to go to bed or something! I think she feels guilty just being looked after in that way. Now I'm learning to insist and she does appreciate it.

I've also noticed that she cannot relax and let me cook a meal for her, do dishes etc without getting up to help or starting into a new project when my intention is to give her a break. Her mum was extremely hard working and so is my mother, but she considers herself quite lazy. She even apologizes if she has a headache and decides to lie down for half an hour. Is there any way I can help make her feel that it is okay to do those kinds of things without guilt?

 

[Glycerine]

She is probably avoiding like crazy what is bothering her.... bring that to her attention. I know that is what I am usually doing. Idle time can force me to solve problem or dwell on it. I bet that is what your mother is doing. She needs to find some better distraction than helping others. It's "easier" to help others than having to deal with your own problems. it's an issue of finding a better coping mechanism. I am guessing that is why she keeps doing things that bother you even though she's self aware.Turn on music or a movie.

 

[copperfish17]

Hey ENFJs,

If I'm disappointed in one of you guys to the point of contemplating cutting off contact, should I talk to that person about it?

The problem is that while the issue could be interpreted as a petty thing (which is why I'm reluctant to talk to the ENFJ about it), it meant a lot to me nonetheless and I'm very hurt.

 

[Sparrow]

Hey ENFJs,

If I'm disappointed in one of you guys to the point of contemplating cutting off contact, should I talk to that person about it?

The problem is that while the issue could be interpreted as a petty thing (which is why I'm reluctant to talk to the ENFJ about it), it meant a lot to me nonetheless and I'm very hurt.

I would want my friend to bring it up to me if I did something that bothered them. That way if I really did mess up then I could say sorry, learn from it, and hopefully salvage a friendship . The whole thing could also be a misunderstanding as well, so definitely bring it up!

 

[copperfish17]

I would want my friend to bring it up to me if I did something that bothered them. That way if I really did mess up then I could say sorry, learn from it, and hopefully salvage a friendship . The whole thing could also be a misunderstanding as well, so definitely bring it up!

That seems like the most obvious answer, except in this case the person in question didn't really do anything wrong, per se. To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous. I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I still haven't completely made up my mind with whether I should let this relationship slide or not. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.

 

[JoSunshine]

She carries incredible tension in her body when she is under stress like that too. I've offered to give her a footrub etc, which I know she really likes and needs, but she will often tell me I need to go to bed or something! I think she feels guilty just being looked after in that way. Now I'm learning to insist and she does appreciate it.

I've also noticed that she cannot relax and let me cook a meal for her, do dishes etc without getting up to help or starting into a new project when my intention is to give her a break. Her mum was extremely hard working and so is my mother, but she considers herself quite lazy. She even apologizes if she has a headache and decides to lie down for half an hour. Is there any way I can help make her feel that it is okay to do those kinds of things without guilt?

I am soooooo guilty of this. One of my friends just said to me that I "do more than anyone she knows". I was stunned, because I always feel like if I worked harder, I could do more. Logically, I know I am not lazy, but I always feel like I am. I also have great difficulty allowing anyone to anything for me that I can do myself - it feels like I am shirking my responsibilities. Once again I emphasize feels like, because I logically know that I do things for other people all the time and it is OK to have people do stuff for me too, but the guilt switch just flips. I really do appreciate it when people insist on doing things for me or just do stuff with out me knowing (Surprise! Dinner is made!), because I get exhausted and having someone help me carry the load is what I want more than anything, I just have a hard time allowing people to because of some screwed-up self talk and guilt complex.

 

[Glycerine]

That seems like the most obvious answer, except in this case the person in question didn't really do anything wrong, per se. To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous. I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I still haven't completely made up my mind with whether I should let this relationship slide or not. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.

What was the petty thing? I know that if something bothered someone and they level-headedly explained to it to me without accusations, then I would try to do w/e I could do to help. It might seem "petty" to you but that's how you feel about it so you should acknowledge it and have the other person acknowledge it. I would personally be deeply hurt if my friend did not tell me what was up.

 

[Hate]

To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous.

The conversation doesn't necessarily have to end with anyone apologizing though, just understanding.

I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

I was actually in a situation similar to this the other day. There was a miscommunication about something, and someone was feeling a certain way when it wasn't necessarily my fault. They broke it down to me the way you're explaining it right now and I was glad that they did. The end result was me respecting them more because of it, not thinking it was petty. Just break it down to them the way you're explaining it here and I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.

These two things right here. ^ You're willing to do this just because you're afraid of sounding petty.. C'mon copperfish, you're better than that.

 

[copperfish17]

What was the petty thing? I know that if something bothered someone and they level-headedly explained to it to me without accusations, then I would try to do w/e I could do to help. It might seem "petty" to you but that's how you feel about it and you should acknowledge it and have the other person acknowledge it. I would personally be deeply hurt if my friend did not tell me what was up.

Well, to sum it up: I feel that our relationship doesn't mean as much to her as it does to me. Haha I know you ENFJ's get this a lot. Never thought the day would come when I would be upset over this very issue. I thought our relationship was unshakeable.

A little bit of background to help you understand my situation: I have been friends with this ENFJ for 7 years. We saw each other almost every day over those years save summer vacation etc. I will be moving away along with many of her other friends this year around June, and she's definitely been very sad and emotional about it.

The two recent disappointments were, respectively:

1. She wrote to all her friends who were leaving on a same piece of paper and handed it out to all of us. I noticed that a) her message to me was the shortest on the list (about half the length of the longest ones) b) she left out certain details that she mentioned in her message for everyone else and c) she got some details that she did mention WRONG.

2. She also gave out parting gifts, and wrote things on the surface of the envelopes/boxes of each gift; some had messages like "Open in private!" "Don't open around other people." "(Name), you're the best." Mine didn't have anything like that. What's worse was that the gift was pretty disappointing, to say the least. I see a feeble connection between the gift and myself at best. In fact, the gift was something that I actively dislike receiving. I asked a couple of other friends what they got from the ENFJ and how they felt about it; quite a few were pretty disappointed about her selection of gifts, and one mentioned that "I don't think she really meant to get me a gift, but just didn't want to make me feel left out." I sort of jokingly mentioned to the ENFJ afterwards that she "made some gifts more special than others," to which she laughed and replied, "Yeah I kinda did, but the gifts are meant to reflect each recipient's personality." Really?

I've got to admit I'm pretty sad. I was pretty certain that was at least somewhat special to her, as she said many things that seemed to imply that I was one of her best friends. I was told many times that I am, quoting her directly, (one of) her favorite(s). We have admitted to each other we thought of the other person as family. We had lots of very special moments together I won't get into here.

I understand that I can't change how anyone feels about me and it's up to that ENFJ to decide who means more to her. I'm at a loss as to what to do now. I've emailed her yesterday asking for time to talk one on one, but she hasn't given me a reply yet.

The conversation doesn't necessarily have to end with anyone apologizing though, just understanding.

Yes, that's true. Thank you for this advice - I really needed to hear it.

I was actually in a situation similar to this the other day. There was a miscommunication about something, and someone was feeling a certain way when it wasn't necessarily my fault. They broke it down to me the way you're explaining it right now and I was glad that they did. The end result was me respecting them more because of it, not thinking it was petty. Just break it down to them the way you're explaining it here and I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

I'll take note of that. Thanks.

These two things right here. ^ You're willing to do this just because you're afraid of sounding petty.. C'mon copperfish, you're better than that.

You're right. I guess I was, and still am, feeling pretty hurt and disappointed. I do feel like I'm being oversensitive which is pretty embarrassing, but I suppose my reaction could be due to just how much she meant to me.

 

[Glycerine]

That's understandable. On the surface, those seem like small things but the underlying message behind those things seem pretty significant. I would be disappointed too. If she keeps acting like that, then she is not worth the time. I think you should ask her where you stand with her because seven years is a long commitment to receive that sort of sloppy consideration.

 

[Glycerine]

On the other hand, if she did this w/ others, it probably means nothing since she's told you many times about what you meant to her. Maybe she knows your guys' special bond and did not feel the need to flaunt that. All things considered, talking would probably be the best thing.

 

[copperfish17]

That's understandable. On the surface, those seem like small things but the underlying message behind those things seem pretty significant. I would be disappointed too. If she keeps acting like that, then she is not worth the time. I think you should ask her where you stand with her because seven years is a long commitment to receive that sort of sloppy consideration.

I'm wondering how I could bring that up without making either of us uncomfortable... seems like a pretty difficult thing to do. I would have to be very, very careful with how I word (somewhat) loaded questions like that. Any advice with that would be very much appreciated.

It's a tough situation. It's pretty convenient for me to cut off contact with her either at this point or later on, as it's inevitable that I'm moving away.

On the other hand, if she did this w/ others, it probably means nothing since she's told you many times about what you meant to her. Maybe she knows your guys' special bond and did not feel the need to flaunt that. All things considered, talking would probably be the best thing.

Pitseleh: Thank you so much for your inputs - they're helping me clear out my head, fast. I really appreciate it and am very glad that I decided to bring up this issue on this forum. I find it very difficult to talk to my RL friends about issues as personal as this because of all the risk factors.

You're right that I should talk to her about it for the best outcome. I suppose I must withhold all judgment and decisions until I've actually talked to her. Sometimes disappointments just happen where they weren't intended, and while I won't try to get my hopes up too much, I will prepare myself to give her the benefit of doubt, if necessary.

Thanks again for your advices.

 

[Neutralpov]

Just a thought. I think you should be prepared if you do talk. In all honesty your intuition might already be telling you what is going on. Somewhere you shifted from inner circle of trust to a more general friend area. It happens and most likely there were actions or lack of actions that lead to this that the ENFJ registered but were unspoken (exactly like you are doing now). So you might need to realize you will get diplomatic answers and silence on the real reasons. If so try not to take it personal. In cases like this for me I think the person is a good person there is just some actions (like you mentioned) or attributes, like being too P for my taste or not matching effort, etc that make the friendship dynamic change. It happens a lot more than I realized and to ENFJs too.

So yes think about wording and listen to your gut for clues on how you address her or you may get a pretty bold/strong wall and worse relations at the affront to her choices. Sometimes I don't make apologies for my freedom to make choices and the affront on them turns me into a different "mode" than my super-bubbly friendly, empathetic mode.

 

[Neutralpov]

Ni understands Ni

Do you, ENFJs, tend to emotionally vent to the ones closest to you? I have spent a lot of time listening to my wife unload a world of emotions on me cause of a series of events that occurred that day. While she is venting, she's constantly looking for a unspoken gesture and/or a response from me which usually leads to her feeling alone and disconnected from me. Most of the time my responses are driven by my Ni which is a timely process. By the time I do respond, she's on to completely different subject leaving a huge gap for miscommunication.

If this is typical for ENFJs, any advice on how to approach this situation from my end without leaving me in the position of saying things which I feel indifferent about later on after my Ni has processed this information?

IMO it is the lack of expression not the delay of Ni. I have Ni. We get it. It is a lack of expression or in our world, "I can't get any reading from him." No matter what it is you are thinking, be it I can get back to you on this issue, or wow I can understand what you are talking about, etc supporting listening, the key is expression is what Fe takes to feel validated on our radar. And funny thing a lot of us go for s.o.s that are phlegmatic and objective and opposites in the strength of expression and then they are baffled by our reactions to a lack of it!

 

[Sparrow]

That seems like the most obvious answer, except in this case the person in question didn't really do anything wrong, per se. To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous. I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I still haven't completely made up my mind with whether I should let this relationship slide or not. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.

I wasnt saying for you to ask her to apologize, what I meant was that it might be good let her know so she could at least get a chance! It was would be pitty to lose a friend over some misconception. Or if she really did mean to hurt your feelings for her not to try and make it up to you (if she really did care about you) .

Well, to sum it up: I feel that our relationship doesn't mean as much to her as it does to me. Haha I know you ENFJ's get this a lot. Never thought the day would come when I would be upset over this very issue. I thought our relationship was unshakeable.

A little bit of background to help you understand my situation: I have been friends with this ENFJ for 7 years. We saw each other almost every day over those years save summer vacation etc. I will be moving away along with many of her other friends this year around June, and she's definitely been very sad and emotional about it.

The two recent disappointments were, respectively:

1. She wrote to all her friends who were leaving on a same piece of paper and handed it out to all of us. I noticed that a) her message to me was the shortest on the list (about half the length of the longest ones) b) she left out certain details that she mentioned in her message for everyone else and c) she got some details that she did mention WRONG.

I always like to take time to think about all the what if's and maybes: What if she didnt want to make everyone else jealous because you were her fave, ya never know! Or maybe she feels like she has already let you know all the good things and didn't feel the need to repeat it??

2. She also gave out parting gifts, and wrote things on the surface of the envelopes/boxes of each gift; some had messages like "Open in private!" "Don't open around other people." "(Name), you're the best." Mine didn't have anything like that. What's worse was that the gift was pretty disappointing, to say the least. I see a feeble connection between the gift and myself at best. In fact, the gift was something that I actively dislike receiving. I asked a couple of other friends what they got from the ENFJ and how they felt about it; quite a few were pretty disappointed about her selection of gifts, and one mentioned that "I don't think she really meant to get me a gift, but just didn't want to make me feel left out." I sort of jokingly mentioned to the ENFJ afterwards that she "made some gifts more special than others," to which she laughed and replied, "Yeah I kinda did, but the gifts are meant to reflect each recipient's personality." Really?

Another what if or maybe: The open in private gifts could have been dildos or something gross like that hahaha .

This isn't worth losing a friendship over, maybe she honestly thought you would like the gift! I know I have gotten shitty gifts from people, it doesn't mean they don't care for me and love me!

I've got to admit I'm pretty sad. I was pretty certain that was at least somewhat special to her, as she said many things that seemed to imply that I was one of her best friends. I was told many times that I am, quoting her directly, (one of) her favorite(s). We have admitted to each other we thought of the other person as family. We had lots of very special moments together I won't get into here.

I understand that I can't change how anyone feels about me and it's up to that ENFJ to decide who means more to her. I'm at a loss as to what to do now. I've emailed her yesterday asking for time to talk one on one, but she hasn't given me a reply yet.

Good! I hope everything works out for ya. Let us know how it goes if you two meet! <3 If it turns out sour, then screw that b*tch . Out with the old and in with the new!

I got upset over something similar. Accept I was the one giving the gift! I feel like it might be a little petty too...but it really did hurt my feelings . My friend was in the hospital and was re-cooperating from surgery (we were friends since junior high...I felt like I reached out to her back then and helped her to break out of her shell). I moved back home from college and heard about her being in recovery, so I went and got her some really beautiful plants, a shit load of magazines, a cute hello kitty stuffed animal, and a card as my way of saying hey I love you, get well soon. I was so excited to give it to her and put a lot of love in to preparing and packaging it. If someone did that for me I would think that they are my true friend and they really care! After that she never tried contacting me, never responded to me on FB . She was still friends with other people from high school, but never gave me the time of day. I know how you feel....it sucks . Hmmm, now you have me thinking!! LOL . Maybe she thought my gift sucked!? To me I thought it was sweet!

 

[copperfish17]

Just a thought. I think you should be prepared if you do talk. In all honesty your intuition might already be telling you what is going on. Somewhere you shifted from inner circle of trust to a more general friend area. It happens and most likely there were actions or lack of actions that lead to this that the ENFJ registered but were unspoken (exactly like you are doing now). So you might need to realize you will get diplomatic answers and silence on the real reasons. If so try not to take it personal. In cases like this for me I think the person is a good person there is just some actions (like you mentioned) or attributes, like being too P for my taste or not matching effort, etc that make the friendship dynamic change. It happens a lot more than I realized and to ENFJs too.

So yes think about wording and listen to your gut for clues on how you address her or you may get a pretty bold/strong wall and worse relations at the affront to her choices. Sometimes I don't make apologies for my freedom to make choices and the affront on them turns me into a different "mode" than my super-bubbly friendly, empathetic mode.

Noted, thanks. I don't think I'm going to ask for an apology, because as you've mentioned (and I have also), she cannot be blamed making those choices. I have no right to challenge her freedom to make those choices and certainly don't want to (attempt to) make her feel guilty over them.

I wasnt saying for you to ask her to apologize, what I meant was that it might be good let her know so she could at least get a chance! It was would be pitty to lose a friend over some misconception. Or if she really did mean to hurt your feelings for her not to try and make it up to you (if she really did care about you) .

I did understand that you weren't asking me to apologize to her - I was contemplating about the issue in my head, on my own. Sorry about the misunderstanding/lack of clarity. I'm inclined to agree with you that I should at least give her one chance to explain anything she feels the need to address.

I always like to take time to think about all the what if's and maybes: What if she did want to make everyone else jealous because you were her fave, ya never know! Or maybe she feels like she has already let you know all the good things and didn't feel the need to repeat it??

That could be...

Another what if or maybe: The open in private gifts could have dildos or something gross like that hahaha .

This isn't worth losing a friendship over, maybe she honestly thought you would like the gift! I know I have gotten shitty gifts from people, it doesn't mean they don't care for me and love me!

You're awfully funny (no sarcasm intended!). Your comment made me smile, so thank you.

May I ask what the shitty gifts you received are? What makes a gift shitty for ENFJs?

Good! I hope everything works out for ya. Let us know how it goes if you two meet! <3 If it turns out sour, then screw that b*tch . Out with the old and in with the new!

I will, thanks for being so supportive. I needed such encouragement, so I really appreciate your gestures.

I got upset over something similar. Accept I was the one giving the gift! I feel like it might be a little petty too...but it really did hurt my feelings . My friend was in the hospital and was re-cooperating from surgery (we were friends since junior high...I felt like I reached out to her back then and helped her to break out of her shell). I moved back home from college and heard about her being in recovery, so I went and got her some really beautiful plants, a shit load of magazines, a cute hello kitty stuffed animal, and a card as my way of saying hey I love you, get well soon. I was so excited to give it to her and put a lot of love in to preparing and packaging it. If someone did that for me I would think that they are my true friend and they really care! After that she never tried contacting me, never responded to me on FB . She was still friends with other people from high school, but never gave me the time of day. I know how you feel....it sucks . Hmmm, now you have me thinking!! LOL . Maybe she thought my gift sucked!? To me I thought it was sweet!

I'm really sorry that happened to you. If I chose to just stop talking to my ENFJ friend altogether, I suppose this is the very thing I would be doing to her... not good at all. Thanks for the reminder.

That reminds me: there was this one time this ENFJ gave me an animal figurine for my birthday/Christmas which, to me, was a surprise. At first I was confused b/c I didn't think anyone would give me such a gift, considering I hardly appear to like "cute" things and in general dislike getting "useless" gifts. However knowing the ENFJ, her tastes, and the message behind the gift, the figurine immediately became one of my most treasured gifts I have ever received from any of my friends. It's sitting on my desk gawking at me with an awesomely cute, blank stare.

 

[Sparrow]

Shitty gifts: butt ugly jewelry that I would never wear, stuff that has no meaning to me that makes me think it was a re gift or bought just because it was the most decent thing they could find on clearance lol. Don't get me wrong I'm not a diva , I don't need diamonds or coach purses, receiving something thoughtful is meaningful to me . It could cost $2.00!

What did your friend get you?

 

[copperfish17]

Shitty gifts: butt ugly jewelry that I would never wear, stuff that has no meaning to me that makes me think it was a re gift or bought just because it was the most decent thing they could find on clearance lol. Don't get me wrong I'm not a diva , I don't need diamonds or coach purses, receiving something thoughtful is meaningful to me . It could cost $2.00!

That makes sense.

What did your friend get you?

Stationery - one 0.5cm-thick stack of notepad paper. I don't know what to do with it. I could use it to write to people i suppose, but I prefer writing on paper with ruled lines by far. It has pictures of a plant (can't tell what kind it is) and a bird on the corners.

 

[Billy]

That's understandable. On the surface, those seem like small things but the underlying message behind those things seem pretty significant. I would be disappointed too. If she keeps acting like that, then she is not worth the time. I think you should ask her where you stand with her because seven years is a long commitment to receive that sort of sloppy consideration.

I would have to disagree on this... I can easily see said ENFJ going on a shopping spree stressing out to get a dozen or so gifts for all these people and being a little sloppy about it. To me, judging the gift harshly seems inappropriate. Especially if you remember she didnt have to get anyone anything at all.

And I dont know about the rest of you, but I have had friends for 7 years, hell longer then 7 years and my relationships are NEVER beholden to requirements. Anyone who requires a certain level of attention/homage from me is quickly removed from my life. I have my own life to live and its hard enough as it is without people worrying about being my "favorite" or "bff" I tell everyone the same and I wish everyone else would do the same...

1. Friendship is either true or fickle. Based on commonalities which transcend time and distance or its merely a convenience. I have 1000s of "friends" not a single "best friend" I dont believe in it. My closest friends, for example my ENFJ pal, met on the bus in elementary school, we come and go out of each others lives, but when we are around do try to meet up every week or every other week to stay current. but there is no requirement for this. Sometimes we will go a month or two, but when we get together we never miss a beat, we go right back to where we had been.

I have other friends I see more often, whom I would not mind losing at all, why? Because our relationships arent based on meaningful connection and commonalities like my friend Dan and I, but we work near one and other and or with each other and its efficient and convenient. These people come and go without thought to the future, if they come around again I welcome them back again.

I wish MORE people would view friendships this way. It seems the most mature, and friendships with requirements of time and sacrifice? I dunno to me its just bunk.

I dont think this specific ENFJ has anything to apologize for, you issues exist outside of her, that you feel some type of way is on you and not on her. I dont agree with anyone who tells you that she has been a bad friend given the data you have provided.

 

[Glycerine]

Read my additional post please. My relationships are the same way dude. I only see my close friends at most once a year so we rarely do stuff for each other. It was just "in comparison" to the other people of the party. I was giving her a couple different perspectives and trying to be empathetic.