Vendrah
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In this morning I was... in shock! =O =( Utterly mad and disappointed at Jung, really really really really! I almost cried in anger...
I was reading Jung and then I stepped on a part that assembled politics, started to search about politics, then started to search about Jung controversies, and I got on an article that pointed out how Jung clearly was racist - and on a very stupid way. And, the worse, I know how things connects and I know how this had affected the MBTI as well. And this is NOT a post about the articles relating racism in the Myers side that was debatable and lack clarity...
So, here are the most important Jung racist quotes (THESE ARE ALL QUOTES FROM JUNG, MOST FROM BOOKS):
These are the ones I had found critical the most. The article is here:
(PDF) The racism of Jung
And this article is from 1988, but I never saw this being mentioned on the community ever.
I did checked one or two of them and I confirmed their existence.
Influences on MBTI
The influences of this on MBTI are complex, but they do exist. But to explain and to proper understand it, I am going to point out to different reads and it is a long read. But I need to link to two big thread posts of mine (one I wasn't even planning to post - but now it is needed) to explain how and where this gets to MBTI.
First I define the undifferentiated "type" and that definition is needed, and I do it on this thread:
Jung Typology Explained
It seems that the undifferentiated "type" is spread in his many books. I only did catch the few most important sentences on Psychological types, and, of course, I had did linked with the enneagram and end up explaining it with a too much positive light when compared to the original material. The few quotes on the article relating the racism of Jung does have additional description of the primitive type in Jung and what Jung did understood as primitive, and, what I didn't really know, who and where Jung did based on and had as reference for "primitive".
But I must complement that with two passages:
So, yeah, this may be new to you, but Jung consider T-F doms/T-F types superior to the N-S doms/N-S ones. But it was more towards the S side rather than on the N side, as this quote here appears to point to (from the '88 article above):
Just in case you haven't know, a S-dom type has thinking and feeling undifferentiated and partially unconscious, so that relates to a S-dom. So, part of the "Sensor hate" has origins right on the source (just found out that today).
But now comes the other problem: Si. The Si type, the Si as posted in Jung, not the adapted versions people post out there (so i am not speaking about the Si you are familiar with). As I explain on this thread:
Jung Si explained, theory about the Jung Si type
The Si type on Jung does engage on the replacement of what is objectively real with internal psyche images, and that relates to illusion and hallucination. One say that any type on the extreme have properly disorders, and I say yes to that, but the replacement of what is real with internal psyche images is something that, even in small degrees of differentiation, is something that is already unhealthy, and unsustainable for real life. Even the Ni type and the others know how to discern what is real and what is not. That means that, for this type to properly adapt to the environment, it needs to be less differentiated than usual. There is also trace of this into what Jung understands as primitive (from the '88 article):
This influences the MBTI, specially how it was started... As we know, the MBTI since the beginning always gives everybody around a type, but as I did explained in "jung typology explained", jung typology was never meant to give everyone at sight a type - as I explained in stages of differentiation on the notes, there is the notion of not having a type, just having one dominant function, etc.... However, the MBTI always forced a type - a "fully differentiated type" - probably since the very beginning. This, combined with the strong likelyness (I have strong arguments but I didn't prove) healthy people that fit the Si type being less differentiated than the others, make Si start to abduct traits that are related to the undifferentiated type, and this means initially ISXX, or maybe already (which is most likely) ISXJ, starting to abduct traits from the undifferentiated type.
And what that means? Well, the facet and aspect that is most distorted on MBTI is the Traditional one. On MBTI, S is associated with tradition, yet if we think Sensation as a function got nothing to do with being traditional. For example, being on the present moment has a lot do with sensation; being practical too; but being traditional don't relate to Sensing per se at all - this was abducted from statistics that did show that sensors were traditional, and the statistics did show that because the Si types were less differentiated and started to abduct traits related to undifferentiation. This gave the negative "stereotype" of ISTJ/ISFJ being highly traditional (a lot of Si descriptions you might read had also connected traditions with Si as well), and in the end this ends up being an important trait of the ISTJ/ISFJ profiles. Did you ever were introduced to that notion of ISTJ/ISFJ being like ants who works following the orders and traditions and all of that? This all comes from the undifferentiated "type", which comes from the archaic notions, so, basically, so sensors major descriptions started to carry traits from the undifferentiated type from Jung, and Jung associates undifferentiation with being primitive and archaic. Doubts? Well, this is the traditional facet description:
This above is simply this below on a positive light:
This also influences on reverse for the ENFP type and probably ENTP as well.
NOTE: I did connected the enneagram type 6 with the undifferentiated type. Well, the type 6 basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance & basic Desire: To have security and support, does relate with being on hostile conditions that threats life itself - this, in turns, connects to a more primitive life environment, and can be seem as a mere reaction, instinctual one likely, of primitive conditions, not a cause of it per se.
I was reading Jung and then I stepped on a part that assembled politics, started to search about politics, then started to search about Jung controversies, and I got on an article that pointed out how Jung clearly was racist - and on a very stupid way. And, the worse, I know how things connects and I know how this had affected the MBTI as well. And this is NOT a post about the articles relating racism in the Myers side that was debatable and lack clarity...
So, here are the most important Jung racist quotes (THESE ARE ALL QUOTES FROM JUNG, MOST FROM BOOKS):
Powell says, 'The confusion of confusions is that universal habit of savagery - the confusion of the
objective with the subjective. 'Spencer and Gillan observe: 'What a savage experiences during a dream is
just as real to him as what he sees when he is awake.' What I myself have seen of the psychology of the
Negro completely endorses these findings
There is a much better hypothesis to explain the peculiarities of the American temperament. It is the fact
that the states are pervaded by the Negro, that most striking and suggestive figure. Some states are
particularly black, a fact that may astonish the naive European, who thinks of America as a white nation.
It is not wholly white, if you please, but piebald. It cannot be helped, it just is so.
What is more contagious than to live side by side with a rather primitive people? Go to Africa and see
what happens. When it is so obvious that you stumble over it, you call it going black. But when it is not
so obvious it is explained as 'the sun'... It is much easier for us Europeans to be a trifle immoral, or at
least a bit, because we do not have to maintain the moral standard against the heavy downward pull of
primitive life. The inferior man has a tremendous pull because he fascinates the inferior layers of our
psyche, which has liv-ed through untold ages of similar conditions ... He reminds us not so much of our
conscious as our unconscious mind - not only of childhood but of prehistory, which would take us back
not more than about twelve hundred years so far as the Germanic races are concern-ed
At the beginning of our era, three-fifths of the population of Italy consisted of slaves human chattels
without rights... The slave and his psychology flooded ancient Italy, and every Roman became in-wardly
a slave. Living constantly in the atmosphere of slaves, he became infected with their psychology. No one
can shield himself from this unconscious influence. Even today, the European, however highly
developed, cannot live with impunity among the Negroes of Africa; their psychology goes into him
unnoticed and unconsciously he becomes a Negro. There is no fighting against it. In Africa there is a
well-known technical expression for this: 'going black'. It is no mere snobbery that the English should
consider anyone born in the colonies, even though the best blood may run in his veins, 'slightly in-ferior'.
There are facts to support this view
Lecturer described a number of impressions he had gained on two journeys in north America. The
psychological peculiarities of the Americans exhibit features that would be accessible to psychoanalysis,
since they point to intense sexual repression. The reasons for repression are to be sought in the
specifically American complex, namely living together with the lower races, more particularly the
Negroes. Living together with the barbarous races has a suggestive effect on the laboriously subjugated
instincts of the white race and drags it down. Hence strongly developed defensive measures are
necessary, which manifest themselves in the particular aspects of American culture
Racial infection is a most serious mental and moral problem where the primitive outnumbers the white
man. America has this problem only in a relative degree, because the whites far outnumber the col-oured.
Apparently he can assimilate the primitive influence with lit-tle risk to himself. What would happen if
there were a considerable increase in the coloured population is another matter
We often discover with Americans that they are tremendously un-conscious of themselves. Sometimes
they suddenly grow aware of themselves, and then you get these interesting stories of decent young girls
eloping with Chinamen or with Negroes, because in the American that primitive layer, which with us is a
bit difficult, with them is decidedly disagreeable, as it is much lower down
Another thing that struck me was the great influence of the Negro, a psychological influence naturally,
not due to the mixture of blood. The emotional way the American expresses himself, especially the way
he laughs, can best be studied in the illustrated supplements of the papers; the inimitable Teddy
Roosevelt laugh is found in its primordial form in the American Negro. The peculiar walk with loose
joints, or the swinging of the hips so frequently observed in Americans, also comes from the Negro.
American music draws its main inspiration from the Negro, and so does the dance ... The vivacity of the
average American which shows itself ... in his extraordinary love of talking - the ceaseless gabble of American papers is an eloquent example of this - is scarcely to be derived from his Germanic forefathers, but is far more like the chattering of a Negro village. The almost total lack of privacy and the all devouring mass sociability remind one of primitive life in open huts, where there is complete identity with all members of the tribe ... This infec-tion by the primitive life can, of course, be observed just as well in other countries, though not to the same degree and not in this form. In Africa, for example, the white man is a diminishing minority and must therefore protect himself from the Negro by observing the most rigorous social forms, otherwise he risks 'going black'. If he succumbs to the primitive influence he is lost. But in America the Negro, just because he is in a minority, is not a degenerative influence, but rather one which, peculiar though it is, cannot be termed un-favourable - unless one happens to have a Jazz phobia
The Negro by his mere presence is a source of temperamental and mimetic infection ... I am quite
convinced that some American peculiarities can be traced directly to the coloured man, while others
result from a compensatory defence against his laxity. But they re-main externals leaving the inner quick
of the American character un-touched
These are the ones I had found critical the most. The article is here:
(PDF) The racism of Jung
And this article is from 1988, but I never saw this being mentioned on the community ever.
I did checked one or two of them and I confirmed their existence.
Influences on MBTI
The influences of this on MBTI are complex, but they do exist. But to explain and to proper understand it, I am going to point out to different reads and it is a long read. But I need to link to two big thread posts of mine (one I wasn't even planning to post - but now it is needed) to explain how and where this gets to MBTI.
First I define the undifferentiated "type" and that definition is needed, and I do it on this thread:
Jung Typology Explained
It seems that the undifferentiated "type" is spread in his many books. I only did catch the few most important sentences on Psychological types, and, of course, I had did linked with the enneagram and end up explaining it with a too much positive light when compared to the original material. The few quotes on the article relating the racism of Jung does have additional description of the primitive type in Jung and what Jung did understood as primitive, and, what I didn't really know, who and where Jung did based on and had as reference for "primitive".
But I must complement that with two passages:
Jung on Sensation said:Sensation is strongly developed in children and primitives, since in both cases it predominates over thinking and feeling, though not necessarily over intuition
Jung on Intuition said:Like sensation, intuition is a characteristic of infantile and primitive psychology. It counterbalances the powerful sense impressions of the child and the primitive by mediating perceptions of mythological images, the precursors of ideas (q.v.).
So, yeah, this may be new to you, but Jung consider T-F doms/T-F types superior to the N-S doms/N-S ones. But it was more towards the S side rather than on the N side, as this quote here appears to point to (from the '88 article above):
the anti thesis of abstraction ... the meaning of concrete is grown together ... Primitive thinking and
feeling arc entirely concreistic; they are always related to sensation. The thought of the primitive has no
detached independence but clings to material phenomena. It rises at most to the level of analogy.
Primitive feeling is equally bound in material phenomena. Both depend on sensation and are only slightly
differentiated from it. Concretism is therefore an archaism
Just in case you haven't know, a S-dom type has thinking and feeling undifferentiated and partially unconscious, so that relates to a S-dom. So, part of the "Sensor hate" has origins right on the source (just found out that today).
But now comes the other problem: Si. The Si type, the Si as posted in Jung, not the adapted versions people post out there (so i am not speaking about the Si you are familiar with). As I explain on this thread:
Jung Si explained, theory about the Jung Si type
The Si type on Jung does engage on the replacement of what is objectively real with internal psyche images, and that relates to illusion and hallucination. One say that any type on the extreme have properly disorders, and I say yes to that, but the replacement of what is real with internal psyche images is something that, even in small degrees of differentiation, is something that is already unhealthy, and unsustainable for real life. Even the Ni type and the others know how to discern what is real and what is not. That means that, for this type to properly adapt to the environment, it needs to be less differentiated than usual. There is also trace of this into what Jung understands as primitive (from the '88 article):
The instinctive sensuousness of the primitive has its counterpart in the spontaneity of his psychic
processes: his mental products, his thoughts, just appear to him as it were. It is not he who makes them or
thinks them - he is not capable of that - they make themselves, they happen to him, they even confront
him as hallucinations
Powell says, 'The confusion of confusions is that universal habit of savagery - the confusion of the
objective with the subjective. 'Spencer and Gillan observe: 'What a savage experiences during a dream is
just as real to him as what he sees when he is awake.' What I myself have seen of the psychology of the
Negro completely endorses these findings
This influences the MBTI, specially how it was started... As we know, the MBTI since the beginning always gives everybody around a type, but as I did explained in "jung typology explained", jung typology was never meant to give everyone at sight a type - as I explained in stages of differentiation on the notes, there is the notion of not having a type, just having one dominant function, etc.... However, the MBTI always forced a type - a "fully differentiated type" - probably since the very beginning. This, combined with the strong likelyness (I have strong arguments but I didn't prove) healthy people that fit the Si type being less differentiated than the others, make Si start to abduct traits that are related to the undifferentiated type, and this means initially ISXX, or maybe already (which is most likely) ISXJ, starting to abduct traits from the undifferentiated type.
And what that means? Well, the facet and aspect that is most distorted on MBTI is the Traditional one. On MBTI, S is associated with tradition, yet if we think Sensation as a function got nothing to do with being traditional. For example, being on the present moment has a lot do with sensation; being practical too; but being traditional don't relate to Sensing per se at all - this was abducted from statistics that did show that sensors were traditional, and the statistics did show that because the Si types were less differentiated and started to abduct traits related to undifferentiation. This gave the negative "stereotype" of ISTJ/ISFJ being highly traditional (a lot of Si descriptions you might read had also connected traditions with Si as well), and in the end this ends up being an important trait of the ISTJ/ISFJ profiles. Did you ever were introduced to that notion of ISTJ/ISFJ being like ants who works following the orders and traditions and all of that? This all comes from the undifferentiated "type", which comes from the archaic notions, so, basically, so sensors major descriptions started to carry traits from the undifferentiated type from Jung, and Jung associates undifferentiation with being primitive and archaic. Doubts? Well, this is the traditional facet description:
The Sensing-Intuition Facets
The five facets of the Sensing-Intuition dichotomy are Concrete-Abstract, Realistic-Imaginative, Practical-Conceptual, Experiential-Theoretical, and Traditional-Original.
(...)
Traditional
People at this pole prefer doing things in established ways that are shared by most other people. It is appealing to them to rely on the security that comes from fitting in with a community or group. They like the feeling of belonging to or being part of something larger than themselves. This preference involves one's entire lifestyle, not merely specific tasks. It includes style of dress, choice of charities, type of housing, and recreational and leisure activities. Traditional people find the conventional appealing in many respects. Convention offers ways of doing things that are continually validated by the social environment. When they see others living in similar ways, Traditional people are assured that their manner of living is valued and correct. They receive immediate confirmation that their way of living is "on target" by checking it against their social surroundings. As a result they are uncomfortable going against the grain of custom, culture, and traditional norms. Tradition is associated with what is good.
For the Traditional person, fads are suspect because they don't have the validating test of time and experience. Fads also lack the societal breadth and depth that occur when traditional styles and customs are followed. Following a fad is not a effective way of achieving the stable and comfortable relationship to one's environment that comes from acting in accord with the traditional styles and customs of one's group. Another avenue to such stability is to follow family traditions, which affirms one's role and relationships among one's kin. Such traditions provide self-definition and give meaning to one's own and one's family members' lives. Traditional people greatly respect tradition and change their ways only reluctantly. For change to be acceptable, it must be grounded in what was done before and must proceed gradually. For Traditional people, deliberate changes made just for the sake of change are meaningless at best. At worst they may destroy cherished meanings that are the foundations of social, organizational, and family life. Traditions are ways of honoring or appreciating what is right and good. Traditional people admire those who can serve as solid role models for behavior and are interested in passing down their traditions to the next generation. They are often perplexed when the next generation is unappreciative of treasured traditions. [From: ]Attention Required! | Cloudflare
This above is simply this below on a positive light:
The further we go back into history, the more we see personality disappearing beneath the wrappings of collectivity. And if we go right back to primitive psychology, we find absolutely no trace of the concept of an individual. Instead of individuality we find only collective relationship or what Lévy-Bruhl calls participation mystique. The collective attitude hinders the recognition and evaluation of a psychology different from the subject’s, because the mind that is collectively oriented is quite incapable of thinking and feeling in any other way than by projection. What we understand by the concept “individual†is a relatively recent acquisition in the history of the human mind and human culture. It is no wonder, therefore, that the earlier all-powerful collective attitude prevented almost completely an objective psychological evaluation of individual differences, or any scientific objectification of individual psychological processes. (...) The development of individuality, with the consequent psychological differentiation of man, goes hand in hand with the de-psychologizing work of objective science.
This also influences on reverse for the ENFP type and probably ENTP as well.
NOTE: I did connected the enneagram type 6 with the undifferentiated type. Well, the type 6 basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance & basic Desire: To have security and support, does relate with being on hostile conditions that threats life itself - this, in turns, connects to a more primitive life environment, and can be seem as a mere reaction, instinctual one likely, of primitive conditions, not a cause of it per se.