That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience, the problems with ESTJ/INTP relations come more from their similarities, e.g. Both types need to be aware of the other's feelings, and respond accordingly, and both need to work at understanding the other one.INTP will have to talk more and be more patient
ESTJ will have to listen more and know when to shut tup
That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience, the problems come more from the similarities, e.g. Both types need to be aware of the other's feelings, and respond accordingly, and both need to work at understanding the other one.
My dad is an INTP. I have a good relationship with him, generally. Areas for conflict generally arise in these areas:
- Him wishing that I was more of a "leader", which, by his standards, means "innovator", which I'm really not
- Him enjoying pointing out my flaws and laughing at them (when he's in a certain mood)
- Like Jack Flak (r.i.p.) mentioned earlier, a lot of bizarre miscommunication
- Him being impossible to reason with when he's upset
- One of us reacting badly to the other when one is upset with something that the other doesn't think is a big deal (e.g. "Whoa, man, take a chill pill!" Hooray for poor emotional intelligence.)
Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse. With ENTPs and ESTJs, I find that since ENTPs are so much more... uh... prone towards debate... that you get interactions like this all the time:
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)
Firstly, let's not jump to generalizations. If there's proof that your alternate methods work, a healthy ESTJ shouldn't have any problem with them. We aren't pro-status quo ALL the time.Your reasons for following the rules never make good sense to me, one of your reasons would be that it has always been done that way. It's that SJ mentality in maintaining the status quo that makes you behave like this, fear of change, it never seems to matter even if an alternative method would be more efficient and in the end make our lives easier.
Firstly, let's not jump to generalizations. If there's proof that your alternate methods work, a healthy ESTJ shouldn't have any problem with them. We aren't pro-status quo ALL the time.
Secondly, it would be nice if this thread wouldn't turn into a "What is it with you people??" thread. It's insulting to everyone - after all, people who go that route are dissing on something that's innate, and that they can't change that well. For instance, the bolded statement, which I find to be closed-minded and judgmental. One of the reasons that this forum is so great is that it exposes people to different mindsets, and learning to accept that there isn't one right way to go about things. Being judgmental isn't going to help much with that.
Thirdly, my ENTP anecdote was, in part, self-deprecating, just to clarify. I was not insulting the ENTP (/INTP) way of thinking.
Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse.
Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse. With ENTPs and ESTJs, I find that since ENTPs are so much more... uh... prone towards debate... that you get interactions like this all the time:
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)
That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)
I think you're right. INTPs keep quiet where ENTPs wouldn't, thereby minimizing conflict (but not making the INTPs any less annoyed). In my relationships with INTPs, they don't annoy me until I begin to annoy them, and their seemingly disproportionate reaction to me is what drives me nuts. So... yeah.maybe thats because the intps are less expressive of their thoughts, you've jsut gone and filled in the blanks yourself.
Yes, but if an ENTP or an INTP thinks that their idea would work better than the current rules, they won't have much respect for it. They're not into respecting authority purely because "that's what you're supposed to do". That sense of duty that almost all SJs have doesn't come as naturally to NTPs. They're called "innovators" for a reason.you known, i can't even see how that example proves your point. the rules are made by the people, for the people
I think you're right. INTPs keep quiet where ENTPs wouldn't, thereby minimizing conflict (but not making the INTPs any less annoyed). In my relationships with INTPs, they don't annoy me until I begin to annoy them, and their seemingly disproportionate reaction to me is what drives me nuts. So... yeah.
Yes, but if an ENTP or an INTP thinks that their idea would work better than the current rules, they won't have much respect for it. They're not into respecting authority purely because "that's what you're supposed to do". That sense of duty that almost all SJs have doesn't come as naturally to NTPs. They're called "innovators" for a reason.
and if there IS a better way to do it, why would you insist on doing it the other way?
Nearly all of the problematic characteristics described above can be attributed to the common problem of Extraverted Thinking overtaking the ESTJ personality to the point that all other personality functions exist only to serve Thinking's needs. A healthy and successful personality needs to have a good balance between its dominant and auxiliary functions. For an ESTJ, dominant Extraverted Thinking needs to be well-supported by the auxiliary Introverted Sensing function. If Introverted Sensing exists only to support the agenda of Extraverted Thinking, then neither function is living up to its potential, and the subject ESTJ is not reaching their potential in their job or their personal relationships.
In the case where auxilary Sensing is underused, the ESTJ will live entirely within the boundaries of their existing principles. They will hold up their own set of principles as an inalienable representation of the Right Thing To Do, and apply everything they encounter in life to this principle system. If they perceive behavior that does not fit into their set of principles, they will ruthlessly judge it and shut down any alternative view of the violation. In being so tied to their Extraverted Thinking process, they lose the ability to truly consider incoming information, and therefore lose the ability to synergize with other people and solve problems in an effective way. Perhaps most importantly, the ESTJ loses the ability to connect with their own Self. They become out of touch with their own personal needs, and dissociated from their core Self. The net effect of these happenings is an ESTJ leader who expects absolute adherence to his or her demands; who lacks the ability to see long-range implications associated with these demands; who is unwilling to consider alternate solutions or plans; and who is dissociated from any personal priorities or value system. Such a leader is unlikely to be effective and successful in their job or personal life, although are likely unaware of the reasons for their problems.
It is quite common for people to allow their dominant function to overrule their personality. In the case of the Extraverted Thinker, allowing Thinking to dominate without counter-balance can have great impact on the social interactions of the ESTJ. Female ESTJs may be viewed as overbearing, controlling, or masculine, and may not be as readily accepted by social standards. This may cause low self- esteem in the female ESTJ. Male ESTJs are somewhat worse off, because social stereotypes may encourage them that they are entitled to be domineering. They may have no interest in growing beyond their limited outlook.
....... In the case where the ESTJ has an overly-dominant Thinking function, the importance of the auxilliary Sensing function is reduced. Data cannot be seen outside of its context within a principle. The ESTJ will not be able to see beyond the fact that a principle has been violated. They will be unable to see the data objectively.
Anyway... she talks all the time, she's emotionally clingy,
she's so exaggerately sure of herself
that she makes me laugh and I laugh even more when her overbearing self tries to force something on me.....And she has a SHORT temper, mostly fun for me, but god bless the unlucky souls of her subordinates at work -_-
But I am always worried about what could happen if we tried to live together.
INTP + ESTJ... I've only got one question
Why?
i shudder to imagine...
i do not think i have met an estj i've liked – aren't they like the intp's natural enemy?